• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why did God create evil?

Acim

Revelation all the time
judgement and understanding rely on knowledge of the swedish language, otherwise attempting to speak swedish without knowledge of it would be silly.

A) speaking swedish without understanding swedish might be silly, but that is a judgment.
B) knowledge of swedish language, might have levels (of awareness). From what I said earlier, knowledge at a direct / honest level would be, "swedish language is swedish language." That may not explain anything, but knowledge doesn't need to explain itself. Another level of awareness would be realizing the language exists. And another level might be realization that the language exists for contextual communication, but is not parcel to how actual communication works. Instead, is part of the 'illusion of communication' in which knowledge is either forgotten or seen as partial.
C) Knowledge of swedish language is not very comparable to "knowledge of good and evil" which is main context of this thread. I realize for you it might be, but you are misusing knowledge to make the connection. And to help understand how knowledge is being misused, I would (already have) introduce 'levels of awareness' into the picture. Such that "knowledge of swedish language" as related to Gen. 2, would be akin, "knowledge of illusionary communication."

if one is not a homosexual, how can they understand what it's like to be one? how can they judge what it is if they don't know what it's like to be a homosexual? they can't! period...

A) "they can't period" is judgment, lacking understanding
B) homosexual is very relativistic, and one could appear to be 'not that' while having understanding and/or judgments that might match up in very synchronistic way to one who is determined to be 'that.' IMO, this would be rather easily demonstrable. Though I would perhaps emphasize "appearing to be not that" is something that is very open to be fudged with. But to whatever degree that is doubted, I'd be willing to expose the shallow judgment you have asserted for the lie that it is.
C) "Know what it's like" is another way of saying "understand" so, IMO, your 'knowledge' claim applying to this example is inappropriate.
D) Knowledge of homosexuality, like knowledge of heterosexuality and really any-sexuality would in context of "knowledge of good and evil" be akin to, "knowledge of illusionary joining."

there are people who make judgments and claim to understand the idea homosexuality who are full of bunk when they don't know homosexuality...because they made up their own understanding of it without knowing it...and make judgments on their failed understanding of it.

They would make false judgments, based on their lack of understanding. Yet, I do think it is entirely plausible to appear to be "not homosexual" and have very clear understanding of it. While also possible to be 'actively homosexual' and in relativistic way (based more on social norms) to be one who doesn't seem to have same understanding as others, and lacks understanding of 'what true, good homosexuals possess.' Which is where things get more than a little fuzzy.

I think homosexuality in general is fuzzy, in terms of understanding, and for sure in terms of (good) judgments. Fuzzy doesn't mean we can't relate with one another about homosexuality, but does mean even us who are in agreement on several fundamental items, may have huge disagreements about other items, some of which may be agreed upon as trivial, and others which may have one of us doubt the fundamental understandings of the other.

An example (of many many) that I'd introduce to explain the fuzziness would be this: would a bisexual individual have, in your opinion, no understanding, made-up understanding, false judgments, bad judgments (etc.) regarding homosexuality, or do you think bisexual persons have full awareness, due to nature of bisexuality?

people make up their own understanding without the knowledge...and then base judgments on a fallacy.

Which is what I see you doing with regards to "tree of knowledge of good and evil." Your judgment appears to be, God had to know what evil is to create that tree, otherwise it makes no sense. And while that may not be spot on with what you are saying, I hope you'll give me some leeway. And I would just say, "God creating evil" and basing it on this story, is interesting to me, but worthy of debate when terms of the story are being either misrepresented or misconstrued. I've already explained a bunch of times in this thread how that shows up to me. But instead, it seems like you (and/or perhaps others) are arguing from fallacy of saying "empirical knowledge is only knowledge we have, and that applies to this tree, and therefore God created evil, since he was aware of evil before that tree came about." Which makes for semi-interesting interpretation of the tale, but one that I find fallacious and have noted why in this very elaborate way. Empirical knowledge isn't only form of knowledge, and without context that is illusion (starting with Garden type scenario), empirical knowledge has nothing to stand on. It is thought system that within context of illusion has merit. Without the illusion, empiricism dissolves, as meditation can demonstrate to the mind willing to 'go there.'
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
He made us to fellowship with him but for true fellowship he had to give us choice. He allows evil for now for that reason. It can result in people choosing good or evil. When we are finally made incorruptible, that's a good thing. I don't want to sin, but I still do because of my sinful nature. We look forward to being free completely from sin which only brings destruction and death. We musn't hold God responsible for evil we commit.

I think it is completely acceptable for him making us without an incorruptable nature. If that is the ultimate goal and will of God then this whole game of hellfire is quite disturbing.

Again, for true fellowship he had to give us free will to do good or bad.

That really didn't answer anything. If God set us up to fail then how is that not his fault? If I dig a hole in my yard and then cover it up and get you to run through the hole is it your fault? Do I look at you in disappointment and exclaim how disgusting you make me for falling into my trap? Are you honestly saying that entrapment is admirable and had to be done?
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
I think it is completely acceptable for him making us without an incorruptable nature. If that is the ultimate goal and will of God then this whole game of hellfire is quite disturbing.

That really didn't answer anything. If God set us up to fail then how is that not his fault? If I dig a hole in my yard and then cover it up and get you to run through the hole is it your fault? Do I look at you in disappointment and exclaim how disgusting you make me for falling into my trap? Are you honestly saying that entrapment is admirable and had to be done?
Ah, well. I just trust him, that's all I can say.
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
Ah, well. I just trust him, that's all I can say.


Yeah, I understand that no realization from another person will ever change your personal belief unless you come to that realization on your own, but haven't you ever looked at Gods history and wondered how you can trust this being?

Being 2/2 on failed creations isn't the best record to have. If God is capable of creating a Heaven with no capacity for sin then what exactly happened with the Angels and us? Did God discover some new powers over the last few thousand years that allows him to create a perfect Heaven? If you think that God was always capable of making us perfect without the ability for evil ,and that is what God ultimately wants, then did he intentionally create us flawed? If you think that he made us perfectly then you have to conclude that being setup for evil is perfect, and if having evil in the world is perfect then what exactly does that make Heaven? Imperfect?

Who is too say there isn't going to be another Lucifer? If God did the best he could in creating Lucifer and Lucifer still was capable of turning into Satan, what exactly is stopping this from happening again? Was God careless when he made the angels? Maybe he didn't create them quite so perfectly?

Who is to say there won't be another random tree with evil knowledge in it that will cause us to all go ballistic? You say this is all a test, but what about babies who die before they are born? They didn't exactly get tested. Who are you to say that there won't be an apple waiting for them in Heaven that ruins everything for us since they didn't get a chance to "choose" God and thus must have free will by way of God planting an evil apple in Heaven that kills everyone, but hey they get to choose or something...
I dunno. Maybe I think too much.....:sad:
 
Last edited:

javajo

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I understand that no realization from another person will ever change your personal belief unless you come to that realization on your own, but haven't you ever looked at Gods history and wondered how you can trust this being?

Being 2/2 on failed creations isn't the best record to have. If God is capable of creating a Heaven with no capacity for sin then what exactly happened with the Angels and us? Did God discover some new powers over the last few thousand years that allows him to create a perfect Heaven? If you think that God was always capable of making us perfect without the ability for evil ,and that is what God ultimately wants, then did he intentionally create us flawed? If you think that he made us perfectly then you have to conclude that being setup for evil is perfect, and if having evil in the world is perfect then what exactly does that make Heaven? Imperfect?

Who is too say there isn't going to be another Lucifer? If God did the best he could in creating Lucifer and Lucifer still was capable of turning into Satan, what exactly is stopping this from happening again? Was God careless when he made the angels? Maybe he didn't create them quite so perfectly?

Who is to say there won't be another random tree with evil knowledge in it that will cause us to all go ballistic? You say this is all a test, but what about babies who die before they are born? They didn't exactly get tested. Who are you to say that there won't be an apple waiting for them in Heaven that ruins everything for us since they didn't get a chance to "choose" God and thus must have free will by way of God planting an evil apple in Heaven that kills everyone, but hey they get to choose or something...
I dunno. Maybe I think too much.....:sad:
I look at Jesus and his life and character and his great love for me, and I just trust him for all that.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
A) speaking swedish without understanding swedish might be silly, but that is a judgment.
is this judgment based on empirical knowledge?

B) homosexual is very relativistic,
that couldn't be further from the truth.
we observe what homosexuality is...
the homosexual experiences it.
C) Knowledge of swedish language is not very comparable to "knowledge of good and evil" which is main context of this thread
.
this is exactly what i am trying to point out...the swedish language is not based on relativity good and evil are.
the metaphor is falsified because the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil are assumed...when a & e were ignorant of such things...the only thing they understood would be the words eating,tree...and the word knowledge because they had the knowledge of experiencing eating and observing trees.
therefore in their ignorance the words NOT GOOD and EVIL are words that they had no knowledge of...if we are to believe that a & e were free beings ignorant of glipper and glopper...

but you must climpt eat from the tree of the knowledge of glipper and glopper,
so if you assume what those words mean then it speaks volumes of your logic...

A) "they can't period" is judgment, lacking understanding
who's lacking in understanding the homosexual or the observer...
if you are not gay you don't know what it is like to be gay...
as an observer you know homosexuality exists
just like speaking swedish...
however if you enjoy making a fool of yourself speaking your personal version of swedish...go right ahead.

B) homosexual is very relativistic, and one could appear to be 'not that' while having understanding and/or judgments that might match up in very synchronistic way to one who is determined to be 'that.' IMO, this would be rather easily demonstrable. Though I would perhaps emphasize "appearing to be not that" is something that is very open to be fudged with. But to whatever degree that is doubted, I'd be willing to expose the shallow judgment you have asserted for the lie that it is.
nope. homosexuality is having sex with a person of the same gender
care to expose my shallow judgement of that?

C) "Know what it's like" is another way of saying "understand" so, IMO, your 'knowledge' claim applying to this example is inappropriate.
i have a danish staring me down...never had it before and i don't know what buttery sugary tastes like...i have seen butter and sugar but i don't know it...
not until i put this danish in my mouth will i know what it tastes like...
so no, knowledge is not another way of saying understand.
it is dangerous to assume that...go ahead, speak your version of swedish to a swede...

D) Knowledge of homosexuality, like knowledge of heterosexuality and really any-sexuality would in context of "knowledge of good and evil" be akin to, "knowledge of illusionary joining."
Combining form from the Greek "heteros" meaning "different." The opposite is "homo-" from the Greek "homos" meaning "same."
if you are implying sex is an illusion?
irrelevant.


They would make false judgments, based on their lack of understanding. Yet, I do think it is entirely plausible to appear to be "not homosexual" and have very clear understanding of it.
how? unless you are the type who thinks assumptions are objective


I think homosexuality in general is fuzzy, in terms of understanding, and for sure in terms of (good) judgments.
gee i wonder why?

Fuzzy doesn't mean we can't relate with one another about homosexuality, but does mean even us who are in agreement on several fundamental items, may have huge disagreements about other items, some of which may be agreed upon as trivial, and others which may have one of us doubt the fundamental understandings of the other.
the only thing in agreement about homosexuality and heterosexuality is the empirical observation of what defines those terms

An example (of many many) that I'd introduce to explain the fuzziness would be this: would a bisexual individual have, in your opinion, no understanding, made-up understanding, false judgments, bad judgments (etc.) regarding homosexuality, or do you think bisexual persons have full awareness, due to nature of bisexuality?
yes.
a bi-sexual would indeed know what it like to be both... hence the prefix bi.



Which is what I see you doing with regards to "tree of knowledge of good and evil." Your judgment appears to be, God had to know what evil is to create that tree, otherwise it makes no sense.
nope. in my opinion there is no god that would concern itself with these trivial pursuits.
as i mentioned before, the metaphor is falsified because the knowledge of good and evil is assumed, when a & e were ignorant of the knowledge of good and evil since they are relative terms.
just think for a moment...
if they hadn't unknowingly crossed the line...we would be unknowingly crossing the line constantly...cain killing abel wouldn't be considered a wrong in our ignorant eyes because we never partook of the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil...


it seems like you (and/or perhaps others) are arguing from fallacy of saying "empirical knowledge is only knowledge we have, and that applies to this tree, and therefore God created evil, since he was aware of evil before that tree came about." Which makes for semi-interesting interpretation of the tale, but one that I find fallacious and have noted why in this very elaborate way. Empirical knowledge isn't only form of knowledge, and without context that is illusion (starting with Garden type scenario), empirical knowledge has nothing to stand on. It is thought system that within context of illusion has merit. Without the illusion, empiricism dissolves, as meditation can demonstrate to the mind willing to 'go there.'
well then, prove to me that you can speak swedish without knowing it..
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Where does the Bible say we may not deserve God's effort, chapter and verse? Romans 5:8 says, But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. That was some effort and focus.

In Revelation 21 it says, And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people...Sounds like His Kingdom will be on earth where he will be with his people for whom Christ died.

He's putting effort for His sheep only, not every human being. He does this out of love, we are saved by His Grace. Which means, it's not a certainly thing. A grace is not something a must. And to do something out of love works the same way. "Out of love" means if it's not out of love, He needs not do this. The whole Bible saying that. The nore obvious one is that Paul ever mentioned that God doesn't listen to us sinners prayers, the Holy Spirit prays for us instead.
 
Last edited:

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
But still, the Jews maintain their faith without the aid of the Holy Spirit, as you said. It might be harder to believe in Jesus, but once you do you are backed by the Holy Spirit as proof.

Now, in an attempt to redirect this back to the issue at hand, regardless of Jesus's death, hell exists. How is infinite suffering an acceptable and "just" punishment in relation to finite crimes?

One might say that it isn't a punishment, it's just a consequence of separation from God, but that still doesn't excuse hell as just. Its very existence is immoral.

That depends on whether things are viewed in a human perspective or not. In a human's perpective, we can only judge "just" in accordance to one's past and present but not future behavior. If however you are omniscient enough, perhaps you will count future behavior as well.

Is it just to jail Hitler when he's in his age of 18? If he's jailed because you know in advance that he'll kill many, it's a kind of just.
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
That depends on whether things are viewed in a human perspective or not. In a human's perpective, we can only judge "just" in accordance to one's past and present but not future behavior. If however you are omniscient enough, perhaps you will count future behavior as well.

Is it just to jail Hitler when he's in his age of 18? If he's jailed because you know in advance that he'll kill many, it's a kind of just.
Then we can continue this in relation to the dead. Is Gandhi in hell for not being a Christian?
 
Last edited:

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Then we can continue this in relation to the dead. Is Gandhi is in hell for not being a Christian?

Personally I don't know him. I need to monitor him 24/7 for years in order to judge him more correctly. You know people used to give only positive impressions to outsiders, you can't know what's deep inside them in order to know them.

Second, I need to study God's Law in full details in order to judge more correctly. And I don't think that His Law in full is available to humans yet.

So I have no way to be able to judge him correctly. That's why we are told not to judge. Leave the judgment to the hand of God as only Him can judge correctly.

So if Gandhi can't pass the judgment of Law, he'll be hell.
 
Last edited:

javajo

Well-Known Member
He's putting effort for His sheep only, not every human being.
You did not give me chapter and verse that says we don't deserve God's effort. The Bible actually teaches:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13


He does this out of love, we are saved by His Grace. Which means, it's not a certainly thing.
Grace is undeserved, unmerited, unearned favor. It is certain that whoever trusts Christ is immediately and eternally saved to the uttermost because of this grace.
A grace is not something a must. And to do something out of love works the same way. "Out of love" means if it's not out of love, He needs not do this. The whole Bible saying that.
For God so loved THE WORLD, that's everyone.
The nore obvious one is that Paul ever mentioned that God doesn't listen to us sinners prayers, the Holy Spirit prays for us instead.
It does not say he does not listen so the Holy Spirit prays for us, it say, We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If God didn't create Satan, then Satan doesn't exist. If you wish to argue that Satan made his own choices and was not forced to do anything, may I remind you that God, in knowing all things, knows the future. He created Satan fully aware of his choices in life.

A righteous man lovingly raises his son to be honest, generous, and kind. On attaining manhood, the son chooses to steal, rape, and murder. Did the father create a thief, rapist, and murderer? No, instead by doing these evil things, the son made himself a thief, rapist, and murderer. Same with Satan. God gives the gift of moral choice, free will to his intelligent children.
There is nothing to suggest that God foresees everything that will happen to an individual or whether that person will be faithful or not. When Jehovah put Abraham to the test regarding his son Isaac, God told Abraham; "Now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me." (Genesis 22:1,12) God did not foresee the outcome of the test, but allowed Abraham freedom of will to decide whether to obey or not. Same with Adam and Eve.
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
A righteous man lovingly raises his son to be honest, generous, and kind. On attaining manhood, the son chooses to steal, rape, and murder. Did the father create a thief, rapist, and murderer? No, instead by doing these evil things, the son made himself a thief, rapist, and murderer. Same with Satan. God gives the gift of moral choice, free will to his intelligent children.
There is nothing to suggest that God foresees everything that will happen to an individual or whether that person will be faithful or not. When Jehovah put Abraham to the test regarding his son Isaac, God told Abraham; "Now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me." (Genesis 22:1,12) God did not foresee the outcome of the test, but allowed Abraham freedom of will to decide whether to obey or not. Same with Adam and Eve.
Then we will agree that God doesn't know everything.

Is eternal torture a justifiable and loving punishment for finite crimes?
 
Top