Skwim
Veteran Member
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace,
and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
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Why did God create evil?
- Thread starter Friend of Bill W
- Start date
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace,
and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
outhouse
Atheistically
you had better do some history work on yahwey beings he was a warrior deity.
maybe you should start withthe OT where the deity murders inoccent people
or the supposed flood that murders not only inoccent people but the inoccent animals to.
is a deity can be jealous and have all other human attributes, it can be evil as well.
javajo
Well-Known Member
Well, there was that darn tree...They chose to disobey his one command not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. So, now we all have that knowledge or sinful nature and we can chose to do, well, good or evil. One day, when we are changed we will put on a new sinless nature, according to 1 Corinthians 15...
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (sinless), and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
javajo
Well-Known Member
None of us are innocent.
tarekabdo12
Active Member
I don't think that God created evil directly but He created the choice among humans and Jinn(including Iblis, the satan) so that some might choose to be good and others to be bad as we all see and always do. That's to choose to love God by our own liberity not to be just created to do so. So, the one who chooses to be good is more valuable than that who was created to be so. The choice itself allows the presence of those who are good and those who are bad and evil, as well. This is something inevitable.
Evandr
Stripling Warrior
Created good, created Evil - It's all labels on the map. We are here; we are trying to get to yonder place having come from way over there. We are told time and time again in so many words that to get to where we need and want to be requires that we stay on the path labeled "good" another word for "correct" and any forks in the road that will dead end us are labeled "bad" or incorrect. Christ's atonement for us simply opened up the path but we must still travel it of opur own free will.
Created good - NO, Created Evil - NO, created that which is good - YES, anything that is left is Evil - YES. Sin is another word for "Bad Choice" just as keeping the commandments is a "Good Choice" or one that will get us what we are ultimately striving for. The catch is that we must prove that we have the character to travel the good path without the incentive being dangled in front of our faces outside the realms of faith and the resources given of God that we may successfully gain all that He has for us. If it were not so then the trial of mortality would be a huge exorcize in futility because it would only prove that our greed and desire for creature comforts compelled us to seek the sure reward as for now we must rely on faith and the reality of who we really are on the inside (what is referred to as the inner vessel). So why does it matter? Because we have the lineage to become like our Heavenly Father and propagate our own eternal families and that is a power far too precious to be handed out to someone whose only incentive to do good is the carrot on the end of the stick.
So stop trying to point the finger of scorn and judgment at God because Evil exists, Evil is simply the absence of Good Remember, as ye judge so shall ye be judged.
Created good - NO, Created Evil - NO, created that which is good - YES, anything that is left is Evil - YES. Sin is another word for "Bad Choice" just as keeping the commandments is a "Good Choice" or one that will get us what we are ultimately striving for. The catch is that we must prove that we have the character to travel the good path without the incentive being dangled in front of our faces outside the realms of faith and the resources given of God that we may successfully gain all that He has for us. If it were not so then the trial of mortality would be a huge exorcize in futility because it would only prove that our greed and desire for creature comforts compelled us to seek the sure reward as for now we must rely on faith and the reality of who we really are on the inside (what is referred to as the inner vessel). So why does it matter? Because we have the lineage to become like our Heavenly Father and propagate our own eternal families and that is a power far too precious to be handed out to someone whose only incentive to do good is the carrot on the end of the stick.
So stop trying to point the finger of scorn and judgment at God because Evil exists, Evil is simply the absence of Good Remember, as ye judge so shall ye be judged.
This doesn't answer my question.
idea
Question Everything
God did not create evil - He is cleaning up a mess He did not create...
from old thread (this topic comes up a bunch)
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/evolution-vs-creationism/87669-god-did-not-create-anything.html
Mormons do not believe in ex-Nihlo creation ...
a few others don't either: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6274502/God-is-not-the-Creator-claims-academic.html
from old thread (this topic comes up a bunch)
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/evolution-vs-creationism/87669-god-did-not-create-anything.html
the ex-Nihlo concept is not within the Bible...we all know there are many mistranslations in the Bible. The English word "create" is one of those. The english word "create" should not be in the Bible, it is a mistranslation. "Creationists" have been duped by a translation error.
Hebrew Word Studies
[SIZE=+1]Child Root (Branches of the Tree)[/SIZE][FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Pronunciation: "Qa-NeH"[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Meaning: To build a nest.[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Comments: This child root is a nest builder, one who builds a nest such as a bird. Also God as in Bereshiyt (Genesis) 14.19; "God most high creator (qaneh) of sky and earth". The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth. The Hebrews saw man as the children (eggs) that God built the nest for. [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]and should therefore NOT be in the Bible.[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]bara' [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]1) to create, shape, form[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]The Greek NT word:[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]ktizō[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]1) to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]a) to found a city, colony, state[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]2) to create[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]a) of God creating the worlds[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]b) to form, shape, i.e. to completely change or transform[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Both Greek and Hebrew words do not mean to make something from nothing. The word means form, shape, change, to make habitable. [/FONT]
Mormons do not believe in ex-Nihlo creation ...
a few others don't either: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6274502/God-is-not-the-Creator-claims-academic.html
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I really don't understand how anything can exist independently of God.
idea
Question Everything
I think the influence of God is like the influence of gravity - that the gravitational pull of a massive star influences everything around it as the massive intelligence of God influences everything around it. We are all connected, and influenced by one another - changed by one another - transformed by one another, and I think this is what is being said when scriptures talk about God transforming everything.
our birth was not our beginning though...
(Old Testament | Jeremiah 1:5)
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
when read carefully, I believe the scriptures teach our spirit - which will continue to exist after this body dies, existed before this body was born too...
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
We humans endure exactly the same things, please note--so there's no particular reason to stress this about animals.
And a lot of it is how you look at it--just like whether or not an animal's eating another animal depends on which animal's POV you look at! And even diseases are arguably an advantage or blessing for the microbe.
As to human suffering generally, IMHO there are three primary reasons for it:
- Some of it is indeed God-sent tests, as various scriptures assert:
- "Do men think when they say 'We believe,' they shall be let alone and not put to proof?"
- "God verily will sift them and test them."
- Some is simply random events, such as earthquakes and tornadoes.
- But MUCH of it is in fact HUMAN-CAUSED problems due to our own perversity and poor decisons!
Bruce
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Skwim
Veteran Member
That's ludicrous. Of course the Hebrews had notions of creating/making. Think they had no conception of:idea said:
1. To cause to exist; bring into being.
2. To give rise to; produce:
3. To invest with an office or title; appoint.
4. To produce through artistic or imaginative effort
All definitions of "create." Of course they did, and they expressed these notions numerous times in their writings. But first, the source word itself, bara'. From Strongs.2. To give rise to; produce:
3. To invest with an office or title; appoint.
4. To produce through artistic or imaginative effort
?
Strong's H1254 - bara'
bara'
1) to create, shape, form
2) of individual man
3) of new conditions and circumstances
4) of transformations
So it's obvious they did have such a concept. Here are just few examples where the Hebrews expressed the notion of creating.bara'
1) to create, shape, form
a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1) of heaven and earth
2) of individual man
3) of new conditions and circumstances
4) of transformations
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created1254 the heaven and the earth
Gen 1:21 And God created1254 great whales and every living creature
Gen 5:1 In the day that God created1254 man
Num 16:30 But if the LORD make 1254 a new thing
Psa 89:12 thou hast created1254 them:
Psa 89:47 wherefore hast thou made1254 all men
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create1254 new heavens and a new earth :
Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created1254
Amo 4:13 For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth1254 the wind
Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father 1? hath not one God created1254 us?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create1254 darkness : I make peace, and create1254 evil : I the LORD do all these [things].
Now, you tell me what better words would fit within these pronouncements thanGen 1:21 And God created1254 great whales and every living creature
Gen 5:1 In the day that God created1254 man
Num 16:30 But if the LORD make 1254 a new thing
Psa 89:12 thou hast created1254 them:
Psa 89:47 wherefore hast thou made1254 all men
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create1254 new heavens and a new earth :
Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created1254
Amo 4:13 For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth1254 the wind
Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father 1? hath not one God created1254 us?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create1254 darkness : I make peace, and create1254 evil : I the LORD do all these [things].
"create"
"created"
"make"
"made"
All of which express the same concept. So, when we read
"I form the light, and create darkness : I make peace, and create evil : I the LORD do all these things.
It's quite clear that it means exactly what it says: god shaped, fashioned, created evil. No two ways about it.
waitasec
Veteran Member
that would make god indifferent...
i have no problem with that...if it is also understood that god does nothing good either.
Although indifference, when he has the ability to intervene, makes him more evil surely?
javajo
Well-Known Member
Sorry. The question was, "If all God created was good then what was left to choose from?" I don't know that I can answer that satisfactorily. All I know is the Bible says that when God saw everything he had made he called it, "very good". There was no sin, so no death, and everything was very good. I believe he did not want robots, but people who chose Him, as he is very good, too (I know some will disagree with that, but the Bible says he is). So he gave just one command and they broke it. That plunged the world into sin, death, and darkness.
So, in the beginning man was good, but then, having the knowledge of good and evil, and a free will, and a fallen sinful nature, being spiritually dead toward God, they began to do evil to one another. This happened with the angels as well, they were created perfect, but because of having a free will, which a loving God would give them, over time Lucifer became proud and they fell.
Anyway, Jesus said sin/evil starts in the heart of man, I don't think we should blame God for evil which we do. I believe since we've all done wrong, in his love God provided a Saviour for us. As the resulting penalty of sin is death, he died in our place, paying the penalty. So, I believe all who trust him are freely saved. That's my belief. Probably didn't answer your question well, but, hey, I wasn't there.
BCG190
Member
Although indifference, when he has the ability to intervene, makes him more evil surely?
Doubly so. But then again, even entertaining the idea that god exhibits any form of indifference is fundamentally against the doctrines of Abrahamic religions in the first place. If we allow ourselves to rationalize evil by saying that god is indifferent, then we are raising more questions than we are answering.
IF god is indifferent:
Why are we still convicted of thought crime?
What is the purpose of the Holy Spirit?
If he is indifferent to evil, is he also to good?
When are we allowed to invoke his indifference, and when are we allowed to claim or blame him?
I think that this is patently illogical, even from the believing camp. But more often than not, this is the rationale that used to explain away evil and disaster (which, I might add, seem to always be confused). Evil exists because of evil people and disaster, specifically the natural kind happens without paying human beings any heed.