Why did God create evil?

[Skwim]

There is a very good explanation of that here: What Does God mean, "I create Evil". Please go there for several passages about this.

Basically, the Hebrew 'ra', can mean evil, as in sin/wickedness, but also something bad or not good from our point of view. Like when a child gets a punishment for doing wrong, they don't like it, its 'ra'. But not in the sense of sin. Same with when we go through something we don't like, but perhaps we grow from it, at the time it is not good to us.

Jeremiah 24:2 says, "One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad."

The same word, 'ra', is used, but the figs are not sinful or wicked, they just aren't good (fruit is inanimate, it cannot do evil). If I fall and get hurt, its 'ra' bad, but not because of wickedness, nor is it a sin. God's just judgment is not evil in the sense of wickedness, it is just 'ra', bad for the wicked people under it.

Not a good explanation at all. It's hardly unusual that words in a language have several, even many, meanings, so this comes as no surprise. What is telling however is the attempt to re-translate a word just because it proves troublesome. Do Christians do this with non-troublesome words in the Bible? No. They assume the translators got all else in the Bible correct. The translators only goof on those words that prove difficult. Gee, how coincidental! But let's take a look at this word "ra' in its nominative use, either as a masculine or feminine noun, not its adjectival case as in your example. And keep in mind that listings such as this are in order of commonality. For example, under 2) a) "ra" is more commonly interpreted as "evil" than "distress," which in turn is more common than "adversity" and so on. From Strong's

"Ra"

n m

2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity

a) evil, distress, adversity

b) evil, injury, wrong

c) evil (ethical)
​

n f

3) evil, misery, distress, injury

a) evil, misery, distress

b) evil, injury, wrong

c) evil (ethical)
​

So, we can see that "evil" is by far the most common interpretation of "ra." But how do other Bibles interpret "ra" as used in Isaiah 45:7?

Those bibles translating "ra" Isaiah 45:7 as

"EVIL"

KJV
ASV
YLT
Darby
Webster's
Hebrew
​

"CALAMITY

NKJ
ESV
NAS
​

"WOE"

RSV
​

"BAD TIMES"

NLT
​

"DISASTER

NIV
​

Obviously "evil" is clearly the favored translation, garnering half (6) of the 12. (taken from all the English language Bibles listed in the Blue Letter Bible site.)

But even if one of these other interpretations of "ra" is what the writer of Isaiah had in mind god still comes off as pretty perverse. Personally, I don't find anyone or thing who wreaked calamity, woe, bad times, or disaster on humanity. worthy of praise.

 

[BruceDLimber]

if god didn't create evil...who did?

Please read what I said in post #66: WE did--or at least, those of us who chose to be wayward and not behave as we should!

(Once again, quote upon request.)

Bruce

 

[javajo]

Hello! Well, I can only say what I believe. I for one admit that I do not know the depths of the wisdom of God and everything about the origins of evil and such. However, I do believe the Bible and I believe God is good. I trust him and his grand plan even though things like evil, pain and suffering are difficult to comprehend. I do know people can be evil to each other and I don't want to be like that. I want to be good and live a life that hopefully is pleasing to the Lord, stumble as I may. If folks decide to blame God for evil, I understand, that's their right, I just don't. I do believe that in his higher purpose he allowed it for a time, but I believe the restoration of all things is at hand. 1 Corinthians 15 says one day all believer's will be changed, from sinful to sinless, mortal to immortal and Revelation says one day there will be no more tears, pain, death, etc. I do know I have been evil, I have done wrong and still do wrong even though I don't want to. I thank God for a Saviour who (I believe) freely paid for my sins, and that is something , that love of God, that I do not understand either, but I'm glad he loves me. Well, that is just my belief. The arguments are getting pretty deep, I won't argue about it. I just believe what I believe as others believe what they believe.

 

[Skwim]

Hello! Well, I can only say what I believe. I for one admit that I do not know the depths of the wisdom of God and everything about the origins of evil and such. However, I do believe the Bible and I believe God is good. I trust him and his grand plan even though things like evil, pain and suffering are difficult to comprehend. I do know people can be evil to each other and I don't want to be like that. I want to be good and live a life that hopefully is pleasing to the Lord, stumble as I may. If folks decide to blame God for evil, I understand, that's their right, I just don't. I do believe that in his higher purpose he allowed it for a time, but I believe the restoration of all things is at hand. 1 Corinthians 15 says one day all believer's will be changed, from sinful to sinless, mortal to immortal and Revelation says one day there will be no more tears, pain, death, etc. I do know I have been evil, I have done wrong and still do wrong even though I don't want to. I thank God for a Saviour who (I believe) freely paid for my sins, and that is something , that love of God, that I do not understand either, but I'm glad he loves me. Well, that is just my belief. The arguments are getting pretty deep, I won't argue about it. I just believe what I believe as others believe what they believe.

" I do believe the Bible" I'll take that as believing that when god said "I . . . create evil" it was something he really did. And because god is good, it was good that he created it.

 

[javajo]

" I do believe the Bible" I'll take that as believing that when god said "I . . . create evil" it was something he really did. And because god is good, it was good that he created it.

If that's how you want to understand it, knock yourself out.

 

[Skwim]

If that's how you want to understand it, knock yourself out.

Thanks for your support. It's appreciated.

 

[Blackdog22]

Hello! Well, I can only say what I believe. I for one admit that I do not know the depths of the wisdom of God and everything about the origins of evil and such. However, I do believe the Bible and I believe God is good. I trust him and his grand plan even though things like evil, pain and suffering are difficult to comprehend. I do know people can be evil to each other and I don't want to be like that. I want to be good and live a life that hopefully is pleasing to the Lord, stumble as I may. If folks decide to blame God for evil, I understand, that's their right, I just don't. I do believe that in his higher purpose he allowed it for a time, but I believe the restoration of all things is at hand. 1 Corinthians 15 says one day all believer's will be changed, from sinful to sinless, mortal to immortal and Revelation says one day there will be no more tears, pain, death, etc. I do know I have been evil, I have done wrong and still do wrong even though I don't want to. I thank God for a Saviour who (I believe) freely paid for my sins, and that is something , that love of God, that I do not understand either, but I'm glad he loves me. Well, that is just my belief. The arguments are getting pretty deep, I won't argue about it. I just believe what I believe as others believe what they believe.

Well, that is pretty satisfying to hear. While I may not agree with your idea of God, I respect that your honest enough to say that you simply don't know. I do think however if you analyzed it deep enough you would have to come to a conclusion. A conclusion that you may not want to come to. However if ignoring certain things in order to keep your faith is a comfortable way for you to live then who am I to judge.

 

[javajo]

Well, that is pretty satisfying to hear. While I may not agree with your idea of God, I respect that your honest enough to say that you simply don't know. I do think however if you analyzed it deep enough you would have to come to a conclusion. A conclusion that you may not want to come to. However if ignoring certain things in order to keep your faith is a comfortable way for you to live then who am I to judge.

Thank-you. I'll just say my trust is in an awesome God who has taken good care of me for almost half a century and I am very satisfied with what I have learned about him and about this subject. I don't hide from or ignore things, I just see things in a much different light. I won't judge you either.

 

[idea]

God did not create evil - He is cleaning up a mess He did not create...

from old thread (this topic comes up a bunch)
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/evolution-vs-creationism/87669-god-did-not-create-anything.html

we all know there are many mistranslations in the Bible. The English word "create" is one of those. The english word "create" should not be in the Bible, it is a mistranslation. "Creationists" have been duped by a translation error.

Hebrew Word Studies
[SIZE=+1]Child Root (Branches of the Tree)[/SIZE]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Pronunciation: "Qa-NeH"[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Meaning: To build a nest.[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Comments: This child root is a nest builder, one who builds a nest such as a bird. Also God as in Bereshiyt (Genesis) 14.19; "God most high creator (qaneh) of sky and earth". The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth. The Hebrews saw man as the children (eggs) that God built the nest for. [/FONT]


[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]and should therefore NOT be in the Bible.[/FONT]



[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]bara' [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]1) to create, shape, form[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)[/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]The Greek NT word:[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]ktizō[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]1) to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]a) to found a city, colony, state[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]2) to create[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]a) of God creating the worlds[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]b) to form, shape, i.e. to completely change or transform[/FONT]


[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Both Greek and Hebrew words do not mean to make something from nothing. The word means form, shape, change, to make habitable.

[/FONT]
the ex-Nihlo concept is not within the Bible...

Mormons do not believe in ex-Nihlo creation ...

a few others don't either: God is not the Creator, claims academic - Telegraph

I'm sad not too many people commented on my previous post, so I am re-posting it

God did not create evil!!! He creates things like we create art, or we create poetry. When we say we created it, we are really saying we transformed something - we take paint, and canvas - we take eternal matter that has always existed, and we shape and form it. This is what create means.

(Old Testament | Isaiah 64:8)
8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

The potter forms the clay - He did not ex-Nihlo (out of nothing) pop the clay into existence - He takes what eternal exists, and forms it into something beautiful. This is what the word "create" means...

God is transforming what eternally exists...
conservation laws - there is no beginning to any of it - things just change form, but nothing just pops in and out of existence... the Bible does not teach something from nothing - it teaches transformation of what eternally exists.

 

[idea]

Isaiah 45:7



Why would the Lord create evil? I'm sure Christians can explain this; I'm not looking for an argument, I'd just like to understand. Is this quote taken out of context?

Not out of context, but mistranslated.

I form the light, and transform darkness: I make peace, and transform evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The above is a better translation. God transforms darkness into light etc. etc.

 

[Acim]

just like goodness then...

Goodness varies a bit more with mileage. It is similar and I've explained this a couple times now, but you keep coming back with sound bite responses that seem like you aren't really listening.

so i'm not getting what you are meaning in response to my post

In my first response, I said this: "In the relative (and rather insignificant) good that is manifested, the Father doesn't take credit for this. This includes a great many things and amounts to anything that perpetuates the illusion by taking pleasure in any event or external relationship. God (Creator) is indifferent to this as well."

Added underline to help you (hopefully) with understanding. Also may help to realize that evil and good are generally, concepts in which we have given them all the meaning they have for us. Meaning is subject to interpretation, but not to knowledge. The knowledge part doesn't need to be said in here, but is said by me, to realize (even more) that it is our interpretation of perceived reality that makes for good and evil, and not that these things actually exist.

I truly believe the whole analogy of night dreams helps with this. There is part of self that cares about night dreams and is invested in that 'reality.' When within that context, there are events (or people, or things) that show up as evil or good. And the self reacts accordingly. Upon waking, it is quickly realized that pretty much all things in the reality are given both meaning and conviction of reality by the dreamer. For sake of what you are asking about, it is the meaning aspect that I would ask you to focus on. If something perpetuates the dream (and conviction of it as being real) and is perceived as 'good' - it will be seen as good, until light (or waking) is received by the mind of the dreamer. If during either 'good' dream or 'evil' dream, something enters that causes waking, and does so in gentle way, it is likely to be understood as illusion (both within and outside of dream), but is also likely to be seen as helpful, especially in dream where evil is being perceived. In dream perceived as good, a waking agent may be less received as helpful, but that will vary by the dreamer. It is not same as evil dreams, but is similar enough to realize the wakeful mind that experiences another (waking) reality is rather indifferent to all the contextual conceptualizations of the illusionary world. Yet, from within the illusion that is simply (and honestly) not the case.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

can you give me scripture that can support the claim that adam and eve sinned

Yes I can. Here you go. Genesis 2-3 NASB - The Creation of Man and Woman Thus the - Bible Gateway

 

[Skwim]

Not out of context, but mistranslated.

I form the light, and transform darkness: I make peace, and transform evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The above is a better translation. God transforms darkness into light etc. etc.

Why stop there? If you're simply going to plug in words to make his pronouncement more palatable, why not

I form the light, and dislike darkness: I make peace, and dislike evil: I the LORD do all these things.

OR

I form the light, and don't make darkness: I make peace, and don't make evil: I the LORD do all these things.

There you go. Problem solved. Now, on to Noah and his troublesome boat of his.

 

[idea]

Why stop there? If you're simply going to plug in words to make his pronouncement more palatable, why not

I form the light, and dislike darkness: I make peace, and dislike evil: I the LORD do all these things.

OR

I form the light, and don't make darkness: I make peace, and don't make evil: I the LORD do all these things.

There you go. Problem solved. Now, on to Noah and his troublesome boat of his.

here is the original Hebrew word:

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

1) to create, shape, form
a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1) of heaven and earth
2) of individual man
3) of new conditions and circumstances
4) of transformations
b) (Niphal) to be created
1) of heaven and earth
2) of birth
3) of something new
4) of miracles
c) (Piel)
1) to cut down
2) to cut out
2) to be fat
a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

to cut apart, mold, shape, form, transform - this is what bara means...


see also:
Hebrew Word Studies
[FONT=Tempus Sans, Tempus Sans Serif, Tempus Sans ITC][SIZE=+2]

Hebrew Word Studies
Creator

[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=+1]Child Root (Branches of the Tree)[/SIZE]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia] Pronunciation: "Qa-NeH"
Meaning: To build a nest.
Comments: This child root is a nest builder, one who builds a nest such as a bird. Also God as in Bereshiyt (Genesis) 14.19; "God most high creator (qaneh) of sky and earth". The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth. The Hebrews saw man as the children (eggs) that God built the nest for. [/FONT]

the word is clearly mis-translated.

The Bible does not teach that God made something from nothing - it teaches that He is transforming (creating) what eternally exists - He is cleaning up a mess He did not make.

People have this strange idea that "in the beginning God was completely alone with nothing around Him" - this idea is not in the Bible, I don't know where it comes from.

Gen 1 starts with a world that was without form - not a world that was not there.

 

[Skwim]

here is the original Hebrew word:

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

1) to create, shape, form
a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1) of heaven and earth
2) of individual man
3) of new conditions and circumstances
4) of transformations
b) (Niphal) to be created
1) of heaven and earth
2) of birth
3) of something new
4) of miracles
c) (Piel)
1) to cut down
2) to cut out
2) to be fat
a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

to cut apart, mold, shape, form, transform - this is what bara means...

Nope! You're misreading the entry. While "shape" and "form" are valid renderings, "transforms" is not. As used in the entry the words "create," "shape," and "form' are verbs whereas "transformations" is a noun. Note that "transformations" is used in the same way as the other examples of the three verbs: "heaven and earth," "individual man," and "new conditions and circumstances." You can no more take the noun "transformations" and turn it into a verb in this context (Isa 45:7) than use the noun "individual man," and do the same.

I form the light, and individualize man darkness: I make peace, and individualize man evil: I the LORD do all these things.

So, your use of "transform" remains a bad and inappropriate rendering.

see also:
Hebrew Word Studies
the word is clearly mis-translated.

The Bible does not teach that God made something from nothing - it teaches that He is transforming (creating) what eternally exists - He is cleaning up a mess He did not make.

People have this strange idea that "in the beginning God was completely alone with nothing around Him" - this idea is not in the Bible, I don't know where it comes from.

Gen 1 starts with a world that was without form - not a world that was not there.

I've already addressed [FONT=Tempus Sans, Tempus Sans Serif, Tempus Sans ITC][SIZE=+2][SIZE=+1] Jeff A. Benner [/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]and his ridiculous claim in this thread.(post #93)

 

[The Sum of Awe]

God of the Bible tends to do things like this.

 

[InChrist]

[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]In Isaiah 45:7, the prophet wrote of God: “I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.” On occasion, unbelievers appeal to this verse in an attempt to involve the Bible in a moral difficulty, since the text seems to suggest that God “created” evil. How should a Christian respond to such a charge?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]First of all, the verse can have no reference to moral evil (wickedness) for such is opposed to the infinitely holy nature of God (Isaiah 6:3). Jehovah is a “God of faithfulness and without iniquity”(Deuteronomy 32:4). He is “not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness” (Psalm 5:4). Nor can it be supposed that this verse has to do with Jehovah’s original creation, for at the termination of the creation week, the Lord saw “everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good” (Genesis 1:31).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The context of Isaiah 45:7, along with several passages of similar import, reveals the truth of the matter. Jehovah—through the prophet Isaiah—prophetically announced to King Cyrus of Persia (a century-and-a-half before the monarch’s birth!) His intention of using this pagan king as an instrument of His holy will. Within Isaiah 45:1-7 is a majestic affirmation of the universal sovereignty of the Almighty God; indeed, there is none like Him (vs. 5). He thus affirms: “I form light, and create darkness [i.e., control nature]; I make peace, and create evil [i.e., exercise control over the nations]; I am Jehovah that doeth all these things.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Notice how the word “evil” is used in obvious contrast to “peace.” Isaiah simply was stating that Jehovah has the power to cause peaceful conditions to exist, or to bring about evil (i.e., destruction). Consider another verse. God warned the Israelites that if they made an alliance with Egypt, He would bring evil upon them [i.e., punishment (cf. Isaiah 31:1-2)]. Again, in describing the coming judgment upon ancient Babylon, the prophet declared: “Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shall not know the dawning thereof and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it away; and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou knoweth not” (Isaiah 47:11). Thus, the evil that God sent was a desolation—a desolation due on account of their wickedness![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Scholars have observed that “evil” can be used with a purely secular meaning to denote physical injury (Jeremiah 39:12), or times of distress (Amos 6:3)—which is its significance in Isaiah 45:7 (see Harris, et al., 1980, 2:855).”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Excerpt:[/FONT] Apologetics Press

 

[Skwim]

He thus affirms: “I form light, and create darkness [i.e., control nature]; I make peace, and create evil [i.e., exercise control over the nations]; I am Jehovah that doeth all these things.”

Are you sure it isn't supposed to be [i.e., make whoopee between tribes]? After all, there's no extra-Biblical evidence he ever exercised control over nations, so my rendition is no less likely.

Notice how the word “evil” is used in obvious contrast to “peace.”

Nope. In fact peace and evil aren't opposites at all.

Isaiah simply was stating that Jehovah has the power to cause peaceful conditions to exist, or to bring about evil (i.e., destruction).

"Destruction"? where the &%## did that come into the discussion? Oh, never mind. The author here is just grabbing at whatever works--for a moment I forgot how Christian apologetics works. And . . . Isa 45:7 does more than say god has the power to "bring about evil." It says he actually created evil, just as he actually created darkness.


Christian apologetics can be so interesting and entertaining.

 

[waitasec]

Yes I can. Here you go. Genesis 2-3 NASB - The Creation of Man and Woman Thus the - Bible Gateway

can't do it can you...? if you could you would point out a verse.
nice try though

the fall account never mentions sin. not once.

 

[Blackdog22]

Le sigh... It is confusing to me that some Christians think they have found some missing link that the historians and translators somehow missed. As if these people, who spend their entire life dedicated to this, are simply misinformed and the Christians who did a google search has the true translation!!! Really guys... give it up...


Either way, Skwim has completely stumped every argument I have seen so far and I can't imagine any others being made that could make any difference. If you want to pretend the Bible doesn't say God creates evil, then cool, do whatever lets you sleep at night.

However, perhaps you could answer how the tree in the garden had the knowledge of evil inside of it. You exclaim free will as the reason for evil, but the fact is the tree had the idea of evil inside of it. All of the knowledge one could ever want to know of evil was inside this inanimate tree that your God created. How exactly do you explain that?