Why did God create evil?

[InChrist]

Are you sure it isn't supposed to be [i.e., make whoopee between tribes]? After all, there's no extra-Biblical evidence he ever exercised control over nations, so my rendition is no less likely.

[FONT=&quot]Do you know there is definitely no extra-biblical evidence that God controls nations? I doubt it? Biblical evidence is the most reliable anyway, IMO.[/FONT]

Nope. In fact peace and evil aren't opposites at all.

[FONT=&quot]The article does not say opposites it said “peace contrasted with evil” and the OT history of Israel and the surrounding nations demonstrate this reality. When Israel lived in obedience to God they were at peace and when they were in rebellion they experienced calamity and evil in the form of war and/or being conquered by another nation. So very clearly, in the sense which the word “evil” is being used here, it is in contrast to peace.[/FONT]

"Destruction"? where the &%## did that come into the discussion? Oh, never mind. The author here is just grabbing at whatever works--for a moment I forgot how Christian apologetics works. And . . . Isa 45:7 does more than say god has the power to "bring about evil." It says he actually created evil, just as he actually created darkness.

[FONT=&quot]The idea of destruction comes from the surrounding passages and chapters when read in context which are about the destruction of Babylon[/FONT]

Therefore evil shall come upon you;
You shall not know from where it arises.
And trouble shall fall upon you;
You will not be able to put it off.
And desolation shall come upon you suddenly,
Which you shall not know. Isaiah 47:11 NKJV

Disaster will come upon you,
and you will not know how to conjure it away.
A calamity will fall upon you
that you cannot ward off with a ransom;
a catastrophe you cannot foresee
will suddenly come upon you. Isaiah 47:11 NIV

Christian apologetics can be so interesting and entertaining

.[/quote]

[FONT=&quot]I realize skeptics enjoy searching the Bible to find verses to take out of context and then use to slander God, but that doesn’t make the accusation true. It seems like a waste of time for one who doesn’t believe in God or the Bible to spend so much time devoted to these subjects.[/FONT]

The accusations of skeptics make me very sad.

 

[Gaura Priya]

God has nothing to do with our evils... evil is a natural cause of karmic reaction and retribution.

 

[waitasec]

[FONT=&quot]Do you know there is definitely no extra-biblical evidence that God controls nations? I doubt it? Biblical evidence is the most reliable anyway, IMO.[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]The article does not say opposites it said “peace contrasted with evil” and the OT history of Israel and the surrounding nations demonstrate this reality. When Israel lived in obedience to God they were at peace and when they were in rebellion they experienced calamity and evil in the form of war and/or being conquered by another nation. So very clearly, in the sense which the word “evil” is being used here, it is in contrast to peace.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The idea of destruction comes from the surrounding passages and chapters when read in context which are about the destruction of Babylon[/FONT]

Therefore evil shall come upon you;
You shall not know from where it arises.
And trouble shall fall upon you;
You will not be able to put it off.
And desolation shall come upon you suddenly,
Which you shall not know. Isaiah 47:11 NKJV

Disaster will come upon you,
and you will not know how to conjure it away.
A calamity will fall upon you
that you cannot ward off with a ransom;
a catastrophe you cannot foresee
will suddenly come upon you. Isaiah 47:11 NIV





[FONT=&quot]I realize skeptics enjoy searching the Bible to find verses to take out of context and then use to slander God, but that doesn’t make the accusation true. It seems like a waste of time for one who doesn’t believe in God or the Bible to spend so much time devoted to these subjects.[/FONT]

The accusations of skeptics make me very sad.

so where did the evil come from?

 

[InChrist]

so where did the evil come from?

[FONT=&quot]Evil comes from within a person.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” Mark 6:21-23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. James 4:1-2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As it originally came from within the angelic being of Lucifer.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. Ezekiel 28:15

[/FONT]

 

[Skwim]

Do you know there is definitely no extra-biblical evidence that God controls nations?

Just as with unicorns and faeries, the lack of it says there isn't.

I doubt it? Biblical evidence is the most reliable anyway, IMO.

And your opinion should mean what?

The article does not say opposites it said “peace contrasted with evil” and the OT history of Israel and the surrounding nations demonstrate this reality.

And what does "contrast" mean?

con·trast (kn-trst, kntrst)

v. con·trast·ed, con·trast·ing, con·trasts
v.tr.
To set in opposition in order to show or emphasize differences:
​

When Israel lived in obedience to God they were at peace and when they were in rebellion they experienced calamity and evil in the form of war and/or being conquered by another nation. So very clearly, in the sense which the word “evil” is being used here, it is in contrast to peace.

Not at all "clearly."

The idea of destruction comes from the surrounding passages and chapters when read in context which are about the destruction of Babylon

Hold on. Your source equated the destruction with evil

"Isaiah simply was stating that Jehovah has the power to cause peaceful conditions to exist, or to bring about evil (i.e., destruction)."
​

So, if the destruction is evil in nature then it means its opposite cannot be true: that it was a good thing. So, being evil in nature it logically follows that whoever did it, god in this case, committed an evil act. Of course, I have no problem with this in as much as god brought evil into the world in the first place. Ya bring the pie ya may as well have a piece.

I realize skeptics enjoy searching the Bible to find verses to take out of context and then use to slander God, but that doesn’t make the accusation true. It seems like a waste of time for one who doesn’t believe in God or the Bible to spend so much time devoted to these subjects.

No more so than believers who cherry pick those verses that support their needs and ignore all those that stand in opposition.

The accusations of skeptics make me very sad.

Boy, if that makes you sad I can't imagine what all the other miseries that befall people do to you. You must be a basket case by bed time.

 

[waitasec]

[FONT=&quot]Evil comes from within a person.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” Mark 6:21-23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. James 4:1-2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As it originally came from within the angelic being of Lucifer.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. Ezekiel 28:15

[/FONT]

let me get this straight.
if a & e hadn't disobeyed before eating the fruit
how can there be knowledge of it?

 

[javajo]

Why is it so important for people who don't believe in God or aren't sure he exists to want to believe he created evil, anyway? What's the point? Why do you care, and why twist scripture you don't believe either to make your point? Just for a reason not to love God? I don't get it. But to each their own. What's so hard to understand that God made us with free choice? If I get up and beat my wife, I've done the evil, not God, he simply allows it...for now...judgment is coming says the Word.

 

[Blackdog22]

Why is it so important for people who don't believe in God or aren't sure he exists to want to believe he created evil, anyway? What's the point? Why do you care, and why twist scripture you don't believe either to make your point? Just for a reason not to love God? I don't get it. But to each their own. What's so hard to understand that God made us with free choice? If I get up and beat my wife, I've done the evil, not God, he simply allows it...for now...judgment is coming says the Word.

Your in a religious debate forum. A post was made in this forum. Ideas were put forth. Those ideas were refuted clearly with no twisting involved. Why are you acting like your being attacked? I hate to say it, but your reaction is so typical.

 

[javajo]

Your in a religious debate forum. A post was made in this forum. Ideas were put forth. Those ideas were refuted clearly with no twisting involved. Why are you acting like your being attacked? I hate to say it, but your reaction is so typical.

Hi. I don't feel like I am being attacked at all personally or otherwise. I just am wondering why atheists or agnostics would even care if God created evil or not. That's all.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

can't do it can you...? if you could you would point out a verse.
nice try though

the fall account never mentions sin. not once.

You are wrong. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, that was sinful. It is always sinful to disobey God. Nice try though.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

Le sigh... It is confusing to me that some Christians think they have found some missing link that the historians and translators somehow missed. As if these people, who spend their entire life dedicated to this, are simply misinformed and the Christians who did a google search has the true translation!!! Really guys... give it up...


Either way, Skwim has completely stumped every argument I have seen so far and I can't imagine any others being made that could make any difference. If you want to pretend the Bible doesn't say God creates evil, then cool, do whatever lets you sleep at night.

However, perhaps you could answer how the tree in the garden had the knowledge of evil inside of it. You exclaim free will as the reason for evil, but the fact is the tree had the idea of evil inside of it. All of the knowledge one could ever want to know of evil was inside this inanimate tree that your God created. How exactly do you explain that?

You are so wrong.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

You are wrong. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, that was sinful. It is always sinful to disobey God. Nice try though.

What's the point in obeying a God who doesn't let you have knowledge? Lucifer seems more like a savior than Jesus, being that he actually gave us something, Jesus gave us freedom from the Noahide laws... But still if you do them you go to hell, so basically he didn't accomplish anything.

 

[javajo]

What's the point in obeying a God who doesn't let you have knowledge? Lucifer seems more like a savior than Jesus, being that he actually gave us something, Jesus gave us freedom from the Noahide laws... But still if you do them you go to hell, so basically he didn't accomplish anything.

I believe we've all sinned. Jesus paid for all our sins. If we trust him for that, we won't go to Hell. So, he accomplished a whole lot.

 

[idea]

Nope! You're misreading the entry. While "shape" and "form" are valid renderings, "transforms" is not. As used in the entry the words "create," "shape," and "form' are verbs whereas "transformations" is a noun. Note that "transformations" is used in the same way as the other examples of the three verbs: "heaven and earth," "individual man," and "new conditions and circumstances." You can no more take the noun "transformations" and turn it into a verb in this context (Isa 45:7) than use the noun "individual man," and do the same.

I form the light, and individualize man darkness: I make peace, and individualize man evil: I the LORD do all these things.

So, your use of "transform" remains a bad and inappropriate rendering.



I've already addressed [FONT=Tempus Sans, Tempus Sans Serif, Tempus Sans ITC][SIZE=+2][SIZE=+1] Jeff A. Benner [/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]and his ridiculous claim in this thread.(post #93)

I form the light, and - shape/form/transform/cut-out/separate - darkness: I make peace, and shape/form/transform/cut-out/separate evil: I the LORD do all these things.

bara is not ex-Nihlo creationism...

like a potter shapes and forms the lumpy clay - God changes darkness into light.


the same concepts are repeated over and over again in the scriptures - and the concept is: God divides dark from light, brings light from darkness, enlightens darkness,

God divided the light from the darkness.(Old Testament | Genesis 1:4)

22 He discovereth deep things out of darkness, and bringeth out to light the shadow of death.(Old Testament | Job 12:22)

28 For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.(Old Testament | Psalms 18:28)


Here is another one out of Isaiah:
I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.(Old Testament | Isaiah 42:16)

God pure 100% good, everything he transforms and touches is good - All that is good comes from God, there is no darkness in Him.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I believe we've all sinned. Jesus paid for all our sins. If we trust him for that, we won't go to Hell. So, he accomplished a whole lot.

I could trust Jesus without following his teachings. Seems more like black mail than a gift.

 

[idea]

You are wrong. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, that was sinful. It is always sinful to disobey God. Nice try though.

We call it a transgression - only those who are accountable can sin. Those who are mentally handicapped, or little children, or anyone without knowledge who do not understand - these people cannot sin. Adam and Eve did not have a full knowledge, they were like little children, and could therefore not sin.

we are accountable for what we know.

(New Testament | Luke 12:47 - 48)
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[idea]

I could trust Jesus without following his teachings. Seems more like black mail than a gift.

I don't understand how you could trust someone without following them...

If someone yells "watch out there's a car coming!!!" - if you trust them, then you will get out of the street (unless you want to commit suicide)...

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I don't understand how you could trust someone without following them...

If someone yells "watch out there's a car coming!!!" - if you trust them, then you will get out of the street (unless you want to commit suicide)...

That "unless" is a pretty important point. One doesn't require the other.

 

[Acim]

Either way, Skwim has completely stumped every argument I have seen so far and I can't imagine any others being made that could make any difference.

Hasn't come remotely close to stumping one I've come up with, and pretty sure isn't even addressing mine.

If you want to pretend the Bible doesn't say God creates evil, then cool, do whatever lets you sleep at night.

I've already spoke to this. In fact was first post I made on this thread.

However, perhaps you could answer how the tree in the garden had the knowledge of evil inside of it.

Yes, perhaps I could. I have elsewhere on this site.

You exclaim free will as the reason for evil,

More like imprisoned will is reason for (perception of) evil.

but the fact is the tree had the idea of evil inside of it.

Not quite accurate. More like knowledge of it. Though I do understand the confusion.

All of the knowledge one could ever want to know of evil was inside this inanimate tree that your God created. How exactly do you explain that?

I would say most importantly that 'knowledge of (good and) evil' is perhaps not what you think. Less important, but I think more pertinent to what you are asking in this question and in your post is that this tree serves as THE catalyst for telling a long tale that equals God's separation from God's creation, but again, not in the way that one might think. Genesis 2 is one big rope-a-dope for what is really going on with LORD God.

 

[javajo]

Yeah, but I think Blackdog was there...he seems to know...