Why did Jesus need to die?

[Falvlun]

At least JW's and LDS agree on at least this one thing. :yes:

Zadok

Interesting. Does Jesus have free-will? Just curious.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

It's basically very similar: Jesus is the bridge between man and God. God could have created any bridge he wanted. He chose Jesus.
It also goes on to state that through his sacrifice,

Not through his sacrifice. It was his theosis that created the bridge back between man and God. His Transfiguration is what mankind was like before the Fall. He endured the crucifixion to defeat Death with death as a result of Theosis.

Also, the Orthodox have a very interesting phrase when it comes to whether those outside the Church are saved or not:

"We know where The Church is. We do not know where The Church is not."

That's what's pretty cool about Eastern Theology. They use theologoumena a lot and their soteriology is never really dogmatized, so there are varying opinions.

 

[javajo]

The wages/penalty of sin is death. So Jesus died and paid for all our sins. It is a spiritual law from the Word of God, without the shedding of blood their can be no remission of sins. We may not completely understand now, but we will one day when we see him face to face. I am just glad he did die for me or I would have no hope of salvation whatsoever.

 

[jmvizanko]

The wages/penalty of sin is death. So Jesus died and paid for all our sins. It is a spiritual law from the Word of God, without the shedding of blood their can be no remission of sins. We may not completely understand now, but we will one day when we see him face to face. I am just glad he did die for me or I would have no hope of salvation whatsoever.

But all of that crazy plan was arbitrarily picked by god. We (at least a lot of us) understand it enough to know that it does not make any sense, and is beyond unjust. I really would like to know how you think god is going to make it make sense when we "see him face to face."

You believe these things because you believe them. But if you step outside of that belief for a second, try to make us understand why it makes sense.

 

[NeoSeeker]

Even in Earthy terms, thousands of Jews were hung by the Romans, many were trouble makers like this supposed Jesus, so what makes his death special?

Well this great story has been recorded explaining why our generous God and his son used this event to give the human race a really good deal. My point about sacrifice is that Jesus, the son of God is currently partying in heaven, so I question the significance of the sacrifice and what it is supposed to have accoumplished.

 

[Walkntune]

Actually, that we understand sacrifice is precisely we we do not consider the Jesus story a sacrifice, let alone a logically necessary one. How is a few hours of torturous pain for the messiah a big deal next to the eternity of torture that awaits all those who don't believe in him, let alone the much worse and longer torture that many people experience in this life? And why is it even necessary? (see my post above).

If a king decided to kill his son, and then base all of his citizens' sentencing on what they believe about his son's sacrifice, we wouldn't call him just or sane, we'd demand his head on a plate. And you would be the person to equate this king with love?

And for some of us, love is anything but a sacrifice, but rather the meaning and goal of our life. What makes sacrifice a necessary, let alone defining, characteristic of love?

Most of the foolish world go around trying to acquire things,stature,wealth,show off knowledge all to draw in attention,affection,love etc.
You really want love, just choose to give it away. Learn to sacrifice.The problem is you are trying to be logical to understand love and sacrifice.That is like asking Mr Spok on star trek to understand humanity,compassion, It is intuitive not logical.

 

[jmvizanko]

Most of the foolish world go around trying to acquire things,stature,wealth,show off knowledge all to draw in attention,affection,love etc.
You really want love, just choose to give it away. Learn to sacrifice.The problem is you are trying to be logical to understand love and sacrifice.That is like asking Mr Spok on star trek to understand humanity,compassion, It is intuitive not logical.

I think you have a very false and depressing view of humanity. I think many people understand what love is, and how to truly love. Sure they may fail at it sometimes, or even a lot of the time. But that doesn't mean they don't know what love is.

I am not trying to understand love too logically, as it can be easily understood logically. And the misguided attempts to love that you refer to are not love at all.

 

[Walkntune]

I think you have a very false and depressing view of humanity. I think many people understand what love is, and how to truly love. Sure they may fail at it sometimes, or even a lot of the time. But that doesn't mean they don't know what love is.

I am not trying to understand love too logically, as it can be easily understood logically. And the misguided attempts to love that you refer to are not love at all.

There is no greater love than to lay down your life for another.Many people would die for there spouses and children.People do many other great sacrifices like share needed body organs and such. What would you view as a greater love and explain why my view of humanity is depressing?

 

[jmvizanko]

There is no greater love than to lay down your life for another.Many people would die for there spouses and children.People do many other great sacrifices like share needed body organs and such. What would you view as a greater love and explain why my view of humanity is depressing?

I would not argue that that is the pinnacle of love, to lay down your life for another. But most people never have that as an applicable scenario in their life. And if you are suggesting that Jesus laid down his life for us, I'll argue that he didn't. He only laid down his life for those of us that believe certain things about what we cannot know. And the whole point of the thread is that, why would anyone have to lay down their life for the rest of humanity, in order to deliver justice to our souls? Why not just judge people proportionally to their actions, which is the obviously fairest justice even to us humans?

Your view of humanity is depressing because you view people, or at least most people, as inherently evil or bad, given your statements. I don't think this is true, and I think most people know what true love is, and they are out to find it and give it.

 

[Walkntune]

Your view of humanity is depressing because you view people, or at least most people, as inherently evil or bad, given your statements. I don't think this is true, and I think most people know what true love is, and they are out to find it and give it.

SO you actually repeat what I stated but call my view depressing.
People are out to find it???
The exact same thing I was saying.
Love is a way of being and not something you find outside of youself.
By being love you draw it to yourself from others.
But it seems people are trying to find it first and you are correct in that.

 

[jmvizanko]

SO you actually repeat what I stated but call my view depressing.
People are out to find it???
The exact same thing I was saying.
Love is a way of being and not something you find outside of youself.
By being love you draw it to yourself from others.
But it seems people are trying to find it first and you are correct in that.

You said "Most of the foolish world go around trying to acquire things,stature,wealth,show off knowledge all to draw in attention,affection,love etc."

Perhaps you should elaborate on what you meant by that. Because I took it to mean that you think most people try to buy love. And I think that's BS.

 

[Walkntune]

You said "Most of the foolish world go around trying to acquire things,stature,wealth,show off knowledge all to draw in attention,affection,love etc."

Perhaps you should elaborate on what you meant by that. Because I took it to mean that you think most people try to buy love. And I think that's BS.

Not to buy love but to try and find happiness in all of these things.Consumed with filling wants and desires or serving mammon instead of God or love which ever you choose.

 

[jmvizanko]

Not to buy love but to try and find happiness in all of these things.Consumed with filling wants and desires or serving mammon instead of God or love which ever you choose.

So yeah. You think most of humanity is just a bunch of hedonistic, selfish @$$holes that don't give a crap about other people or whatever you define to be love. How is that not a depressing, let alone wildly inaccurate, view of humanity?

And you can serve love without serving god. I happen to think I am a shining example of exactly that.

 

[Zadok]

Interesting. Does Jesus have free-will? Just curious.

It is my opinion that of all mankind (including Adam) Jesus is the only man to live with knowledge according to his free will - being the only one that really understood what was at stake and the outcome of his choices. Free will is but an allusion to the rest of us – it is because of our ignorance in making choices that as we come to understand better we can repent.

Zadok

 

[Zadok]

So yeah. You think most of humanity is just a bunch of hedonistic, selfish @$$holes that don't give a crap about other people or whatever you define to be love. How is that not a depressing, let alone wildly inaccurate, view of humanity?

And you can serve love without serving god. I happen to think I am a shining example of exactly that.

Thank you for this post - I believe the greatest of men are those that realize and admit that they are the best example of what they believe.

Zadok

 

[jmvizanko]

Thank you for this post - I believe the greatest of men are those that realize and admit that they are the best example of what they believe.

Zadok

Well I wasn't trying to say that. I'm not that pompous. I was just merely pointing out that I am a personal example of someone who knows what love is, does love, and also happens to think god is a fairy tale.

"shining" should have never been in the sentence

 

[wallyglenn]

As it took one perfect human being Adam to bring sin and death into the world.
It had to be the sacrifice of a perfect human being to take sin and death away from the world.Jesus was the one to make this sacrifice,it was Gods will.

 

[NeoSeeker]

As it took one perfect human being Adam to bring sin and death into the world.
It had to be the sacrifice of a perfect human being to take sin and death away from the world.Jesus was the one to make this sacrifice,it was Gods will.

And after Jesus's sacrifice, how long did the world remain sin free? This kind of suedo logic boggles my mind...

 

[Zadok]

Well I wasn't trying to say that. I'm not that pompous. I was just merely pointing out that I am a personal example of someone who knows what love is, does love, and also happens to think god is a fairy tale.

"shining" should have never been in the sentence

I did not intend to embarrass you only to point out your wisdom in understanding that you as we all are the shining examples of what we believe. Anyone willing to take such responsibility for themselves is someone I respect – I may not always agree with everything you say but I will respect you and what you say for admitting what and who you are.

Zadok

 

[logician]

You can't have a resurrecton w/o a death.