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Why Did The Mormon Church Become Involved In The Proposition 8 Battle?

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The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
You'll burn in hell for that remark. Hold on..let me get a fundy to condemn you...

In the absence of a fundamentalist, I'd like to offer my services.

Omar will now be condemned to an eternity on the shores of a fiery lake, commencing immediately after his death.

Should a fundamentalist show up, they should feel free to trump my damning of Omar with just a few short verses ...
 

ayani

member
We believe that marriage between a man and a woman can be eternal. Eternal things are more important than temporal things.

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves bbreak through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
(New Testament | Matthew6:19 - 20)

families are eternal treasures in heaven. Anything that would rob someone of their eternal family is a horror.

so campaigning against same-sex marriage is more important than fulfilling the commandments of Jesus Christ?

He tells us to show mercy, to love our neighbor, to do unto others, and to serve.

giving money or time to feed the hungry and clothe the naked is not "storing up treasures on earth", nor is it encouraging the recipients of that help to do so. it's just giving them the basics so that they can live, and thrive.

that's a very twisted argument against relinquishing your material resources to help others, and i certainly hope that isn't what you meant.
 

idea

Question Everything
Why Did The Mormon Church Become Involved In The Proposition 8 Battle?
Same-Gender Attraction - LDS Newsroom

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: At the outset, can you explain why this whole issue of homosexuality and same-gender marriage is important to the Church?

ELDER OAKS: This is much bigger than just a question of whether or not society should be more tolerant of the homosexual lifestyle. Over past years we have seen unrelenting pressure from advocates of that lifestyle to accept as normal what is not normal, and to characterize those who disagree as narrow-minded, bigoted and unreasonable. Such advocates are quick to demand freedom of speech and thought for themselves, but equally quick to criticize those with a different view and, if possible, to silence them by applying labels like “homophobic.” In at least one country where homosexual activists have won major concessions, we have even seen a church pastor threatened with prison for preaching from the pulpit that homosexual behavior is sinful. Given these trends, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must take a stand on doctrine and principle. This is more than a social issue — ultimately it may be a test of our most basic religious freedoms to teach what we know our Father in Heaven wants us to teach.

here are some issues:
eHarmony.com sued for excluding homosexuals
eHarmony.com sued for excluding homosexuals

Moonbattery: Christians Sued for Not Participating in Homosexual Ceremony
Christians Sued for Not Participating in Homosexual Ceremony

Lesbian Sues Christian Doctor Over Refusal to Inseminate
Lesbian Sues Christian Doctor Over Refusal to Inseminate
Religious rights? Not for doctors

View Press Release
Pastor Sued For Alleged Hate Speech

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/jul/07073003.html
Catholic Adoption Agency Will Close Before Giving Children to Homosexual Parents

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17353
Boy Scouts vs. homosexuals

...."ultimately it may be a test of our most basic religious freedoms to teach what we know our Father in Heaven wants us to teach"
 
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ayani

member
Well, according to the LDS official position, we don't know what causes homosexuality.

here's what i genuinely don't get....

this isn't just aimed at LDS, but others who campaign to get gay marriage illegalized.

regardless of any church's "official position", banning gay people from getting married won't make them any less gay, and won't lessen their desire to get married and keep fighting for the right to do so.

i am a Christian, and i realize that not everyone in the world holds or can hold my Christian views. Jesus Himself says "no one can come to Me unless the Father draw him" (John 6:44).

so why fight against a people, an identity, and a movement? what's the point? it's stupid, and illogical. a Christian will generally state that only the Holy Spirit can convict a person of sin, and lead them to make a u-turn and repent.

spending lots and lots of money to prevent people from doing what they want to do and feel they have the right to do won't accomplish that. it's forcing a personal belief system on non-believers who are Biblically speaking unable to understand the Christian position unless convicted by God. in the mean time, lots of money, energy, and vocal volume is spent looking vindictive, and making life miserable for a huge chunk of the population who genuinely doesn't understand the basis or validity of your convictions.

so why all the effort and money wasted? i don't support gay marriage. i believe that God has blessed and sanctioned marriage to be between a man and a woman. but my gay neighbor isn't going to get that, or share my belief. i believe he is living in sin, he thinks he's fine. and someday, he might want to get married to his boyfriend. should i try to stop his wedding, or slash his tires so he can't make it to the court house? that would be insane, and really mean and illogical.
 

themadhair

Well-Known Member
How does someone being gay affect your religious freedom? O right, it doesn't and you really do not have anything resembling a reason.
This was too lenient. I should of asked the following:

How the **** does your religious freedom have a bearing on what the government does and does not recognise?????? You freedom of religion is guaranteed by the same constitution that says your freedom of religion should have no bearing whatsoever on government legislation. For you to refer to freedom of religion on this issue is a ******* contradiction if you cannot have respect for the same document that gave you that freedom.
 

Smoke

Done here.
we are fighting for religious freedom.
No, you're fighting against it. Not every religion enshrines bigotry as doctrine. You're fighting to make sure your religious beliefs triumph over the beliefs of others. It's the people who support equality who are fighting for religious freedom -- the religious freedom of all people, not the freedom of people like yourself to impose your religious beliefs on everybody else.

The passage you quoted from Dallin Oaks is illustrative of the dishonesty of your side:

Such advocates are quick to demand freedom of speech and thought for themselves, but equally quick to criticize those with a different view and, if possible, to silence them by applying labels like “homophobic.”
A barefaced lie. Nobody is challenging your freedom of speech. People are challenging the truth of what you say. You have a First Amendment right to tell lies and preach bigotry, but you don't have a right not to be called on it. Anytime anybody contradicts you, you cry that your freedom of speech is threatened. What a childish lie. Freedom of speech does not convey freedom from criticism. If your speech is homophobic, expect to be called on it.

In at least one country where homosexual activists have won major concessions, we have even seen a church pastor threatened with prison for preaching from the pulpit that homosexual behavior is sinful.
Dallin Oaks knows perfectly well -- or ought to -- that this is not an issue in the United States because of the First Amendment. Very few countries have such unfettered freedom of speech as we have, and the First Amendment won't change because gay people have legal equality. Dallin Oaks is either a fool or a shameless liar and fearmonger. Perhaps all three.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must take a stand on doctrine and principle.
Exactly. Your doctrine and your principles, which you intend to force on the general population in direct opposition to the right to freedom of religion.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
we are fighting for religious freedom.

No, you aren't. You are fighting for the oppression of the rights of others. You are fighting against MY religious freedom, since, in my religious views, your religion is wrong.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
Why Did The Mormon Church Become Involved In The Proposition 8 Battle?
Same-Gender Attraction - LDS Newsroom

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: At the outset, can you explain why this whole issue of homosexuality and same-gender marriage is important to the Church?

ELDER OAKS: This is much bigger than just a question of whether or not society should be more tolerant of the homosexual lifestyle. Over past years we have seen unrelenting pressure from advocates of that lifestyle to accept as normal what is not normal, and to characterize those who disagree as narrow-minded, bigoted and unreasonable. Such advocates are quick to demand freedom of speech and thought for themselves, but equally quick to criticize those with a different view and, if possible, to silence them by applying labels like “homophobic.” In at least one country where homosexual activists have won major concessions, we have even seen a church pastor threatened with prison for preaching from the pulpit that homosexual behavior is sinful. Given these trends, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must take a stand on doctrine and principle. This is more than a social issue — ultimately it may be a test of our most basic religious freedoms to teach what we know our Father in Heaven wants us to teach.

here are some issues:
eHarmony.com sued for excluding homosexuals
eHarmony.com sued for excluding homosexuals

Moonbattery: Christians Sued for Not Participating in Homosexual Ceremony
Christians Sued for Not Participating in Homosexual Ceremony

Lesbian Sues Christian Doctor Over Refusal to Inseminate
Lesbian Sues Christian Doctor Over Refusal to Inseminate
Religious rights? Not for doctors

View Press Release
Pastor Sued For Alleged Hate Speech

Catholic Adoption Agency Will Close Before Giving Children to Homosexual Parents, Bishop States
Catholic Adoption Agency Will Close Before Giving Children to Homosexual Parents

Boy Scouts vs. homosexuals
Boy Scouts vs. homosexuals

...."ultimately it may be a test of our most basic religious freedoms to teach what we know our Father in Heaven wants us to teach"

None of those have anything to do with the Church's stance on homosexual marriage.

I suggest you try again rather than trying to move the debate.

As Smoke already stated anyway, religious organizations engaging in politics to deny same sex marriage are violating the religious rights of others.

Since you now seem fit to mention Elder Oaks how about you respond to my initial questions posed to you.
 

ayani

member
we are fighting for religious freedom.

no, you're not.

no one is marching Christians to the polls and forcing them to vote for gay marriage. no one is burning down LDS temples or Christian churches until those communities relent and agree to stop opposing gay marriage.

this is in no way about religious freedom. this is about people believing they can force their own convictions on others who have no inclination to share those convictions, and lobbying long and hard to change the legality of what is really a moral issue wrought with potentially religious implications in a non-theocratic society.
 
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