Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

[TransmutingSoul]

A vague response. Maybe for there 11th time. And you think this is an answer?

Why 622 when the supposed "advent" happened in 610?

This should help.

Islamic calendar - Wikipedia

That is, if you really do not know why the the Islamic calender started in 622.

Note 1st Islamic community was established as well

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

This should help.

Islamic calendar - Wikipedia

That is, if you really do not know why the the Islamic calender started in 622.

Regards Tony

No it doesn't help. Not at all. And giving a wikipedia link as an response to a question you have been asked 12 times without answering is such a low attempt its bordering ludicrousness. Dont do that. I doubt that suits your character.

You know that you are changing your story right?

What is it? Which one is the beginning for your calculation?

1. The so called advent of islam you kept saying over and over again all this time which is recorded to have happened in 610?
2. or this so called "Islamic Calendar"?

These two are two different years so you have to stick to something.

of course I as a natural reflection am expecting another non-answer response.

 

[Trailblazer]

To you, what was the "dispensation" of Jesus all about? And then, what about that dispensation got abrogated by first Muhammad, then by Baha'u'llah?

That is a big subject. I suggest you read this book:

Christ and Baha'u'llah
by George Townshend
Oxford: George Ronald, 1957

CONTENTS

Chapter Page
Prologue . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
1 God's Call to the Christians . . . . . . . . . .11
2 The Kingdom in the Bible . . . . . . . . . . . .14
3 Jesus Christ, Herald of the Kingdom . . . . . . 20
4 The False Prophets . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .25
5 Muhammad, Builder of Nations . . . . . . . . . .31
6 Muhammad and the Christians . . . . . . . . . . 40
7 The Violation of Muhammad's Covenant . . . . . .43
8 Christianity and Islam . . . . . . . . . . . . .45
9 The Rise of Modern Europe . . . . . . . . . . . 50
10 The Dawn-Song of the Kingdom . . . . . . . . . .57
11 The Bab . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 64
12 Bahá'u'lláh . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 69
13 The Proclamation to the Kings . . . . . . . . . 79
14 'Abdu'l-Bahá . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .87
15 The Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Bahá . . . . .98
16 The Kingdom on Earth . . . . . . . . . . . . . .104
Epilogue . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .111

Christ and Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

I posted a bunch of verses for you from Revelation. You don't even have to crack open a Bible. Unfortunately, I don't believe you have a clue what is going on there, but you "believe" Baha'u'llah has fulfilled it all. Great. But, the sad thing is, Baha'is can't just "say" they have the truth, they've got to prove it. But you can't. All you can hope for is that someday it will become clear that the Baha'i Faith is the truth

No, I cannot prove it to anyone else and that is not my responsibility. Baha'u'llah said that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself.

Do you really think that verses from Revelation being fulfilled proves anything? Nobody can even understand what that book means. No, the OT prophecies are much more accurate and Baha'u'llah fulfilled those.

It is already clear to me that the Baha'i Faith is the truth, of that I have no doubt. I do not know if or when it will be known to everyone but I believe what Baha'u'llah wrote, so I think it will be eventually.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Place, in all circumstances, Thy whole trust in Thy Lord, and fix Thy gaze upon Him, and turn away from all them that repudiate His truth. Let God, Thy Lord, be Thy sufficing succorer and helper. We have pledged Ourselves to secure Thy triumph upon earth and to exalt Our Cause above all men, though no king be found who would turn his face towards Thee.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 248-249

50 years ago I was almost convinced of that. Now, because of the attitude of some Baha'is, I'm getting pushed further and further away from thinking it is the truth.

By their fruits ye shall know them applies to prophets, not humans. Humans are fallible.

To use the attitude or actions of the Baha'is as a criteria for determining whether Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God or not is a serious error. Baha'u'llah clearly explained why:

“IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD, THE EXALTED, THE MOST HIGH.

No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán.

The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4[/QUOTE]

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No it doesn't help. Not at all. And giving a wikipedia link as an response to a question you have been asked 12 times without answering is such a low attempt its bordering ludicrousness. Dont do that. I doubt that suits your character.

You know that you are changing your story right?

What is it? Which one is the beginning for your calculation?

1. The so called advent of islam you kept saying over and over again all this time which is recorded to have happened in 610?
2. or this so called "Islamic Calendar"?

These two are two different years so you have to stick to something.

of course I as a natural reflection am expecting another non-answer response.

No I have stuck to what I have offered and as such i see your replies as one of two possible motives.

You really do not get such a simple explanation, or
You keep trying to put information in that is not needed.

If it is the former, then this link; Day-year principle - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

"The year 1260 was significant in Shia Islam, independently of any Biblical reference. The Shia branch of Islam followed a series of 12 Imáms, whose authority they traced back to Muhammad. The last of these disappeared in the Islamic year 260 AH. According to a reference in the Qur'an,[6] authority was to be re-established after 1,000 years.[7] For this reason, there was widespread anticipation among Shi'ites that the 12th Imam would return in Islamic year 1260 AH. This is also the year 1844 AD in the Christian calendar.

Therefore, Baha'is understand the 1,260-day prophecies in both Daniel and in the Book of Revelation as referring to the year 1260 of the Islamic calendar [8] which corresponds to the year 1844 AD, the year the Báb pronounced himself to be a Manifestation of God and the year that the Baha'i Faith began."

See no starting point needed for the 1260 Prophecy. I have said many times above, the 1260 does not need and advent starting point. Plainly 1844 is 1260.

For the 1844 Prophecy has the starting point is BC457, which is obtained for the Old Testament, along with the 2300 years to make the calculation.

Revelation 9:15 also predicts 1844, but that also needs a starting point of 1453. The link explains that one.

There are others with a starting point.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

No I have stuck to what I have offered and as such i see your replies as one of two possible motives.

You really do not get such a simple explanation, or
You keep trying to put information in that is not needed.

If it is the former, then this link; Day-year principle - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

"The year 1260 was significant in Shia Islam, independently of any Biblical reference. The Shia branch of Islam followed a series of 12 Imáms, whose authority they traced back to Muhammad. The last of these disappeared in the Islamic year 260 AH. According to a reference in the Qur'an,[6] authority was to be re-established after 1,000 years.[7] For this reason, there was widespread anticipation among Shi'ites that the 12th Imam would return in Islamic year 1260 AH. This is also the year 1844 AD in the Christian calendar.

Therefore, Baha'is understand the 1,260-day prophecies in both Daniel and in the Book of Revelation as referring to the year 1260 of the Islamic calendar [8] which corresponds to the year 1844 AD, the year the Báb pronounced himself to be a Manifestation of God and the year that the Baha'i Faith began."

See no starting point needed for the 1260 Prophecy. I have said many times above, the 1260 does not need and advent starting point. Plainly 1844 is 1260.

For the 1844 Prophecy has the starting point is BC457, which is obtained for the Old Testament, along with the 2300 years to make the calculation.

Revelation 9:15 also predicts 1844, but that also needs a starting point of 1453. The link explains that one.

There are others with a starting point.

Regards Tony

See brother, I have internet access and no one has restricted me from google.com or wikipedia. So your responses are not answers. I didn't ask about the prophecy of Daniel, I asked about your advent of Islam thing which did not happen in 622.

13th time I asked the same question and you have again given a non-answer response. Thanks a load.

Your statement below to be frank is probably the most nonsensical statement I have read since I joined this forum.

See no starting point needed for the 1260 Prophecy. I have said many times above, the 1260 does not need and advent starting point. Plainly 1844 is 1260.

Peace.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No it wouldn't convince me.

Right, then I'm sure you'll understand how the exact same argument used for YOUR side of the fence, isn't going to convince me either.

And the underlying reason is that it's just your (or their) mere word. Their claims. And we need more then that to be convinced.

So what can you offer in support of your case besides your mere personal opinions?

God reveals himself to those that listen to him.

Or people make themselves believe by setting up such a bias, off course...

Fact makes it evidence.

But mere opinions and beliefs, aren't facts. Or at least, they don't necessarily reflect facts.

 

[kjw47]

I see it as Christ, we must learn from Christ.

Regards Tony

Yes he leads the congregation. But he still appointed teachers-These-Matthew 22:45-- one must learn from them.

 

[kjw47]

Right, then I'm sure you'll understand how the exact same argument used for YOUR side of the fence, isn't going to convince me either.

And the underlying reason is that it's just your (or their) mere word. Their claims. And we need more then that to be convinced.

So what can you offer in support of your case besides your mere personal opinions?




Or people make themselves believe by setting up such a bias, off course...



But mere opinions and beliefs, aren't facts. Or at least, they don't necessarily reflect facts.

Then are you just a troll?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes he leads the congregation. But he still appointed teachers-These-Matthew 22:45-- one must learn from them.

Now one must determine who are the teachers.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It is not easy to see that Faith can be seen as the Beast.

It is easier when we know that the best refers to our lower selves.

The Faith of Muhammad was taken over by many who broke the covenant.

The reference of 1260 is to the dispensation of Islam. Not a time between each significant event.

Regards Tony

I think there's about six times that get interpreted as 1260 years. Am I the only one that thinks that Baha'is making the 1260 lunar years of Islam the meaning of each of these is a little odd. The outer court gets trampled for 42 months... that is 1260 lunar years. The 2 witnesses prophesy for 1260 days... that equals 1260 lunar years. The 2 witnesses are killed and lay in the street for 3 1/2 days... that is 1260 lunar years. And so on. And they all start with 622 and end with 1844... which is 1222 solar years. So which verse is it that you use to justify changing it to lunar years? And then, to top it off. The mark or number of a beast that is not the first beast nor the dragon, but a beast that comes last after the others, this beast and its number of 666 is used to mark the start of the first Umayyad leader? But, the first beast had power for 42 months. So, if he came to power in 666, no, but wait, the Umayyad leader took over in 661, so already you have to add 5 years to that to get to 666... and then, from 661 if we add 42 months that gets changed to 1260 solar or lunar years, either one... it does not come up to 1844. So even though he hasn't taken power yet, the Baha'is start the 42 months from 622. Then they multiply 42 months by 30 days per month to get 1260. But, 1260 plus 622 equals 1882. So the 1260 gets converted to lunar years with comes out to years 1260 in the Islamic calendar. Yeah, I get it now. How simple and obvious. How did I miss it?

 

[firedragon]

I think there's about six times that get interpreted as 1260 years. Am I the only one that thinks that Baha'is making the 1260 lunar years of Islam the meaning of each of these is a little odd. The outer court gets trampled for 42 months... that is 1260 lunar years. The 2 witnesses prophesy for 1260 days... that equals 1260 lunar years. The 2 witnesses are killed and lay in the street for 3 1/2 days... that is 1260 lunar years. And so on. And they all start with 622 and end with 1844... which is 1222 solar years. So which verse is it that you use to justify changing it to lunar years? And then, to top it off. The mark or number of a beast that is not the first beast nor the dragon, but a beast that comes last after the others, this beast and its number of 666 is used to mark the start of the first Umayyad leader? But, the first beast had power for 42 months. So, if he came to power in 666, no, but wait, the Umayyad leader took over in 661, so already you have to add 5 years to that to get to 666... and then, from 661 if we add 42 months that gets changed to 1260 solar or lunar years, either one... it does not come up to 1844. So even though he hasn't taken power yet, the Baha'is start the 42 months from 622. Then they multiply 42 months by 30 days per month to get 1260. But, 1260 plus 622 equals 1882. So the 1260 gets converted to lunar years with comes out to years 1260 in the Islamic calendar. Yeah, I get it now. How simple and obvious. How did I miss it?

What if the so called "number of the beast" is 616?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Dispensation of Jesus has been abrogated.

But you don't know what that Dispensation was about? So how do you know it been "abrogated". Because the Baha'i Faith said so and that settles it?

Do you really think that verses from Revelation being fulfilled proves anything? Nobody can even understand what that book means. No, the OT prophecies are much more accurate and Baha'u'llah fulfilled those.

No, obviously whoever this John was that claims to have had this vision was on some kind of mushrooms or something. It is a totally meaningless book. But, it is Abdul Baha' that claims things in it are true prophecies that have been fulfilled. Was he wrong? Like the alleged "1260" "prophecy"... I think you are right. It proves nothing.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, I cannot prove it to anyone else and that is not my responsibility.

Hmmm? So why do Baha'is "teach" others about the Faith? They are not trying to prove it is the truth? So Baha'is are only responsible to "say" they have the truth, but they don't have to prove it. I get it. And I like that. That makes things so much easier.

The Baha'is "teaching" encounter.
The Baha'i, "The Baha'i Faith is the truth!" The evil doubter, "Prove it." The Baha'i, "That's not my job. You don't believe it. You prove it ain't." The doubter, "Yes, I have a problem with..." The person gives a list of things. The Baha'i, "You're wrong. Everything you say is wrong. Go read this Baha'i book until you see the truth for yourself." The doubter, "I did read that book. That's where I got these questions from." The Baha'i, "Well, if you can't see that this is the truth it must be because you are spiritually blind. Your old religious beliefs are like veils preventing you from seeing the truth." The doubter, "I don't believe any religion. I just trying to find out about why you think you have the truth." The Baha'i, "Oh, that's easy. It is because the Baha'i Faith is the truth." And so it goes.

To believe in one religion, a person has to reject the others... even in a religion that claims to be part of a progression from those other religions.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you don't know what that Dispensation was about? So how do you know it been "abrogated". Because the Baha'i Faith said so and that settles it?

I know what the Dispensation of Jesus was about but that has nothing to do with abrogation. Every time a new Messenger of God comes to earth, the previous dispensations are abrogated. As such, the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah abrogated all the dispensations of the past.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Baha'is "teaching" encounter.
The Baha'i, "The Baha'i Faith is the truth!" The evil doubter, "Prove it." The Baha'i, "That's not my job. You don't believe it. You prove it ain't." The doubter, "Yes, I have a problem with..." The person gives a list of things. The Baha'i, "You're wrong. Everything you say is wrong. Go read this Baha'i book until you see the truth for yourself." The doubter, "I did read that book. That's where I got these questions from." The Baha'i, "Well, if you can't see that this is the truth it must be because you are spiritually blind. Your old religious beliefs are like veils preventing you from seeing the truth." The doubter, "I don't believe any religion. I just trying to find out about why you think you have the truth." The Baha'i, "Oh, that's easy. It is because the Baha'i Faith is the truth." And so it goes.

To believe in one religion, a person has to reject the others... even in a religion that claims to be part of a progression from those other religions.

No, that's not how it goes, at least that is not how it should go.

 

[CG Didymus]

I know what the Dispensation of Jesus was about but that has nothing to do with abrogation. Every time a new Messenger of God comes to earth, the previous dispensations are abrogated. As such, the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah abrogated all the dispensations of the past.

That's what I asked. I make it easier. To Baha'is, what was the dispensation of Jesus all about? But now you've opened up another bunch of problems... Which religion that we know of, came first? Hinduism? So it abrogated something. Then what Judaism or Buddhism? Which ever is the order the one abrogated the other? Then somewhere in the mix comes Zoroastrianism. It abrogated Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism? Then what, maybe Jesus and Christianity? So it abrogated Zoroastrianism? After that, I get it. Islam abrogated Christianity, and then The Bab's religion abrogated Islam and then The Baha'i Faith abrogated The Bab's religion. So, since the new messenger abrogates the previous one, then the only one Baha'u'llah abrogated was The Bab's religion? No, I know that's not true, because those pesky followers of the other religions won't let them die. So Baha'u'llah had to abrogate all of them. They are all useless and to be done away with. So, that way all religions are one. Because there is only one true religion left, The Baha'i Faith. All the others have been abrogated. This is truly simple.

 

[CG Didymus]

What if the so called "number of the beast" is 616?

That would only be a temporary problem. They make 666 into the start of the first Umayyad leader in 661. So if they can add 5, adding 50 should be doable. But what if that prophecy was about someone from long ago, like Nero or somebody? That would make the Baha'is as making fulfilled prophecies out of nothing. But, I know, that can't be. And there is still a way out... the old "dual" prophecy fulfillment. It was Nero and the Umayyad leader.

I'm still wondering about that other prophecy they use from Daniel. I guess I'm going to have to check that one out too. And I still haven't heard a Christian refute it. So Baha'is got that going for them. Oh, you should of heard their calculations to fulfill Kalki's return. And, there's one they do from Buddhism that is pretty creative also.

 

[Trailblazer]

So Baha'u'llah had to abrogate all of them. They are all useless and to be done away with. So, that way all religions are one. Because there is only one true religion left, The Baha'i Faith. All the others have been abrogated. This is truly simple.

God abrogated the previous religious dispensations by sending Baha'u'llah.
The religious dispensations have been abrogated but the religions are never abrogated.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think there's about six times that get interpreted as 1260 years. Am I the only one that thinks that Baha'is making the 1260 lunar years of Islam the meaning of each of these is a little odd. The outer court gets trampled for 42 months... that is 1260 lunar years. The 2 witnesses prophesy for 1260 days... that equals 1260 lunar years. The 2 witnesses are killed and lay in the street for 3 1/2 days... that is 1260 lunar years. And so on. And they all start with 622 and end with 1844... which is 1222 solar years. So which verse is it that you use to justify changing it to lunar years? And then, to top it off. The mark or number of a beast that is not the first beast nor the dragon, but a beast that comes last after the others, this beast and its number of 666 is used to mark the start of the first Umayyad leader? But, the first beast had power for 42 months. So, if he came to power in 666, no, but wait, the Umayyad leader took over in 661, so already you have to add 5 years to that to get to 666... and then, from 661 if we add 42 months that gets changed to 1260 solar or lunar years, either one... it does not come up to 1844. So even though he hasn't taken power yet, the Baha'is start the 42 months from 622. Then they multiply 42 months by 30 days per month to get 1260. But, 1260 plus 622 equals 1882. So the 1260 gets converted to lunar years with comes out to years 1260 in the Islamic calendar. Yeah, I get it now. How simple and obvious. How did I miss it?

The simplicity is it all happened within the 1260 year Islamic Dispensation.

The two witnesses had power for 1260 years, many events happened within that 1260 years.

Regards Tony