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Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Always people say no more Revelations, then how there always are more, albeit those that say there will be no more do not see it that way.

Always people say my Faith is the Last and highest goal, yet the Faith that follows has much the same statements.
The Messiah according to the Jewish thought was and is (discussed with Jesus also in mind)

1. A descendant of David. The Gospel of Matthew, which is the second earliest Gospel to be written cites Jesus as the son of David but it was probably written 3 decades or more after Jesus died so maybe the Jews never knew Jesus as such. And if Matthew picked up this allusion from an older source at that time there were many people claiming to be "The Messiah" so maybe it was lost in the clutter.

2. The messiah will attain sovereignty over Israel. Jesus entered Jerusalem after a long ministry which the Romans did not find as threatening enough until he did, and within a few days Jesus and his movement was crushed and he was crucified. So he actually did not gain sovereignty over Israel. Thus, the Jews did not recognise him as there Messiah that they were expecting.

3. The Jewish Messiah was to bring global peace, bring all the Jews from all over the world and make them all obey and follow the Mosaic "law" (Torah) which never happened in their eyes.

4. When the Messiah comes, that will be times when there is no one that can be called rich or poor, which is interpreted as all will be rich so there won't be any need or opportunity for charity. So everyone will be equal. The Babylonian Talmud is explicit in that. So that kind of time has not yet come.

5. The talmud also instructs the one who is awaiting the Messiah not to drink wine during the weekdays but only on the Sabbath day or on a special day like a festival. After all, the Messiah can come any day. But this is dedicated to a Nazarite who awaits the coming of the Messiah. While discussing this, it mentions Elijah, the preparer of the path for the Messiah, who will never come on the Sabbath. And there is an argument there that The messiah might come directly without the coming of Elijah but this was all to do with how much the Nazarite was allowed to drink and may as well be a sacred way of warning alone. If John the Baptist asked Jesus if he was Elijah, and he said he is not, (Among saying he is not "that prophet") John is not Elijah either.

6. The war of the Gog and Magog has to take place prior to the Messiahs advent. Gog and Magog has been associated with Alexander based on the Quranic interpretation of the word dhul-qarnain is the dual plural of Qarana which in its natural arabic meaning, means man of two generations thus him being Alexander is an assumption based on the wall story which may have influenced this thinking. So its more of an assumption based on some parallels in Alexander Romance, than based on any kind of real evidence. various theories exist what this god and Magog is, some based on characteristics and some based on the name itself like the Lidian king 7 centuries before Jesus who had a name that sounds like it (Gygas to my memory) and then the Jewish Midrash claiming both refer to the same conquering nation that will wage war against Israel itself. So there are various ideas about this and it has been of paramount importance to many.

7. The advent of the Messiah will happen right after this and it will be the "Worst period for the people of Israel". One must remember that the Messiahs job is to bring all the people of Israel from all over the world and get them under the Mosaic Torah. So when we refer to the "people of Israel" it does not mean those reside in Israel which is a big misunderstanding of those who are non-jewish. Thus taking this criteria into consideration the persecution of the Nazi regime seem to be the "worst period for the people of Israel". This is mentioned as I remember in the same area where the singing of praise or the small "Hallel" (Hallelujah is made of the word Hallel which means to fanatically praise)

Thinking from the perspective of the Quran
8. the Messiah will never be a God because God is ahadun, there is nothing else that is divine (no ilah), and of course he already came and his name is eesa. Ain, ye, seen. (very similar to the Gree Iesous). He was Bikalimathun Minha or a word from him (which is a synonym for an "ordain of God"), A rasool, Eesabnu Maryama or son of Mary, he was born while Mary was guarding her Farj or chastity. He is named by name, not inference. The return and coming back of the Messiah is not in the Quran (Some people are definitely gonna get hung up on this particular point for a long time I assure anyone who reads this because this is the single point that is paramount to people and their respective theologies). There is no mention of Jesus coming back in the Quran. It is extra Quranic, eisegesis, inference. Anyway, this is what the Quran says about the Messiah. So he has already come and gone (according to the Quran).

1 to 8 was brought by the Gate.
yet, eyes blinded still wait!

1 to 8, no need to wait,
Baha'u'llah is that Fate!

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Or another time you choose not to acknowledgetge simplicity of the Prophecy. A prophecy that simply gives the year when the all embracing Message of Muhammad was fulfilled by the Bab.

As a result, peoples of all Faiths now embrace the Message of Muhammad given in the Quran.

Peace be with you.

Regards Tony

You know im curious. Whats your stand on the Quran? What is your belief?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Messiah according to the Jewish thought was and is (discussed with Jesus also in mind)

1. A descendant of David. The Gospel of Matthew, which is the second earliest Gospel to be written cites Jesus as the son of David but it was probably written 3 decades or more after Jesus died so maybe the Jews never knew Jesus as such. And if Matthew picked up this allusion from an older source at that time there were many people claiming to be "The Messiah" so maybe it was lost in the clutter.

2. The messiah will attain sovereignty over Israel. Jesus entered Jerusalem after a long ministry which the Romans did not find as threatening enough until he did, and within a few days Jesus and his movement was crushed and he was crucified. So he actually did not gain sovereignty over Israel. Thus, the Jews did not recognise him as there Messiah that they were expecting.

3. The Jewish Messiah was to bring global peace, bring all the Jews from all over the world and make them all obey and follow the Mosaic "law" (Torah) which never happened in their eyes.

4. When the Messiah comes, that will be times when there is no one that can be called rich or poor, which is interpreted as all will be rich so there won't be any need or opportunity for charity. So everyone will be equal. The Babylonian Talmud is explicit in that. So that kind of time has not yet come.

5. The talmud also instructs the one who is awaiting the Messiah not to drink wine during the weekdays but only on the Sabbath day or on a special day like a festival. After all, the Messiah can come any day. But this is dedicated to a Nazarite who awaits the coming of the Messiah. While discussing this, it mentions Elijah, the preparer of the path for the Messiah, who will never come on the Sabbath. And there is an argument there that The messiah might come directly without the coming of Elijah but this was all to do with how much the Nazarite was allowed to drink and may as well be a sacred way of warning alone. If John the Baptist asked Jesus if he was Elijah, and he said he is not, (Among saying he is not "that prophet") John is not Elijah either.

6. The war of the Gog and Magog has to take place prior to the Messiahs advent. Gog and Magog has been associated with Alexander based on the Quranic interpretation of the word dhul-qarnain is the dual plural of Qarana which in its natural arabic meaning, means man of two generations thus him being Alexander is an assumption based on the wall story which may have influenced this thinking. So its more of an assumption based on some parallels in Alexander Romance, than based on any kind of real evidence. various theories exist what this god and Magog is, some based on characteristics and some based on the name itself like the Lidian king 7 centuries before Jesus who had a name that sounds like it (Gygas to my memory) and then the Jewish Midrash claiming both refer to the same conquering nation that will wage war against Israel itself. So there are various ideas about this and it has been of paramount importance to many.

7. The advent of the Messiah will happen right after this and it will be the "Worst period for the people of Israel". One must remember that the Messiahs job is to bring all the people of Israel from all over the world and get them under the Mosaic Torah. So when we refer to the "people of Israel" it does not mean those reside in Israel which is a big misunderstanding of those who are non-jewish. Thus taking this criteria into consideration the persecution of the Nazi regime seem to be the "worst period for the people of Israel". This is mentioned as I remember in the same area where the singing of praise or the small "Hallel" (Hallelujah is made of the word Hallel which means to fanatically praise)

Thinking from the perspective of the Quran
8. the Messiah will never be a God because God is ahadun, there is nothing else that is divine (no ilah), and of course he already came and his name is eesa. Ain, ye, seen. (very similar to the Gree Iesous). He was Bikalimathun Minha or a word from him (which is a synonym for an "ordain of God"), A rasool, Eesabnu Maryama or son of Mary, he was born while Mary was guarding her Farj or chastity. He is named by name, not inference. The return and coming back of the Messiah is not in the Quran (Some people are definitely gonna get hung up on this particular point for a long time I assure anyone who reads this because this is the single point that is paramount to people and their respective theologies). There is no mention of Jesus coming back in the Quran. It is extra Quranic, eisegesis, inference. Anyway, this is what the Quran says about the Messiah. So he has already come and gone (according to the Quran).
1. Davidic lineage: IF you accept the gospels, Joseph was not the earthly father of Jesus; in fact Jesus had no earthly father. Therefore Jesus had no Davidic lineage, since foster/adoptive fathers don't count in Jewish law.

2. Sovereignty over Israel. You are correct. Jesus did not fulfill this.

3a. World peace: unfulfilled.

3b. Restoring all Jews to the land: unfulfilled.

3c. Have all Jews obey the Torah: you are correct. Unfulfilled.

4. No disparity of wealth. Yeah, unfulfilled.

5. N/A

6. God and Magog taking place: Even Christians admit this has not taken place.

7. Will happen after worst time for Israel. You are so correct. So far that has been the Holocaust, which happened two millennia after Jesus.

8. Quran is N/A
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
1. Davidic lineage: IF you accept the gospels, Joseph was not the earthly father of Jesus; in fact Jesus had no earthly father. Therefore Jesus had no Davidic lineage, since foster/adoptive fathers don't count in Jewish law.

2. Sovereignty over Israel. You are correct. Jesus did not fulfill this.

3a. World peace: unfulfilled.

3b. Restoring all Jews to the land: unfulfilled.

3c. Have all Jews obey the Torah: you are correct. Unfulfilled.

4. No disparity of wealth. Yeah, unfulfilled.

5. N/A

6. God and Magog taking place: Even Christians admit this has not taken place.

7. Will happen after worst time for Israel. You are so correct. So far that has been the Holocaust, which happened two millennia after Jesus.

8. Quran is N/A

Haha. I was wondering what you meant by N/A which worked in my mind as Not Available but now I get you were saying Not Applicable. You are right, the Quran is not applicable as well, but its relevant to this particular thread so I thought of adding it at the end of it because its about the Bahai Messiah.

So how do you think these criteria applies to Bahaullah?
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
That is what the Jews still say they do.

Thus which of the 30,000 different ideas about Jesus the Christ could we consider may have got it right?

Then what is their authority of interpretation?

Regards Tony


The teachings of Jesus are the same in every translation. God made sure they were preserved. His teachings are not taught correctly in a single building on the planet called a church.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The teachings of Jesus are the same in every translation. God made sure they were preserved. His teachings are not taught correctly in a single building on the planet called a church.
Ya, and only the JW's know the only true teachings, right?

This is really quite "old", btw, and it's based entirely on nothing short of religious bigotry.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
The teachings of Jesus are the same in every translation. God made sure they were preserved. His teachings are not taught correctly in a single building on the planet called a church.

It is possible that is a very true statement. That also may apply to the JW, it can not be discounted that it does.

I see the Bab and Baha'u'llah have brought the 'Day of God', the 'Day of Jehovah'. That the 'Glory of God' the Father has brought thy kingdom come thy will be done! I see all that is the teachings given in the Bible. I see the Messiah has not been accepted by the JW.

Thus the quandary then continues.

You as JW Can not say you are really any different from and other Christian denomination, even if you have chosen to make a break. An old saying is if it swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Thus you as JW, are a Christian that does have a building (Church) that you can offer worship to God in. The JW cannot show any better authority of interpretation than any other denomination can outside of the Catholic Church. Thus the JW, in that regard, is really only reflecting what any other branch of Christianity, that over time has broken from the Catholic line of Pope's who trace their Authority back to where it all started, it is an alternative unauthorised interpretation.

The Baha'i have an interpretation, but it is given an authority, that the Baha'i see is the authority of God. That is the challenge offered by the title of the OP and it is important to note that no one is asked to consider this is so, no one has to consider it is so. If it is true how did the JW and all Christianity, Muslims and all Faith miss the advent of the Messiah?

As a JW, you still await the final event, how do you expect the world will see the Messiah?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
You know im curious. Whats your stand on the Quran? What is your belief?

The great thing about belief is that it is organic, it can grow as one feeds faith with more reason based in truth and not one's own thoughts.

My current understanding is that the Quran was recited by Muhammad and it is the Word given by Allah. It took people away from Idol worship, back to worship of and submission to, our One God, Allah.

As such, to me the Quran is life, there is no life without it and many possible tangents of thought and discussion arise from such a question.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
1. Davidic lineage: IF you accept the gospels, Joseph was not the earthly father of Jesus; in fact Jesus had no earthly father. Therefore Jesus had no Davidic lineage, since foster/adoptive fathers don't count in Jewish law.

2. Sovereignty over Israel. You are correct. Jesus did not fulfill this.

3a. World peace: unfulfilled.

3b. Restoring all Jews to the land: unfulfilled.

3c. Have all Jews obey the Torah: you are correct. Unfulfilled.

4. No disparity of wealth. Yeah, unfulfilled.

5. N/A

6. God and Magog taking place: Even Christians admit this has not taken place.

7. Will happen after worst time for Israel. You are so correct. So far that has been the Holocaust, which happened two millennia after Jesus.

8. Quran is N/A

1 The Father is Baha'u'llah
2 Full sovereignty has been established, God allows men to rule the Material World.
3a World peace was offered by Messiah and rejected, the details given for the Lesser Peace, which is fast approaching.
3b Fulfilled, started with Adict of Toleration 1844 and unfolding since then
3c Fulfilled and practiced, to obey Torah is to accept the Messiah.
4 Offered and recorded as to what must happen..... Etc

As you can see it all becomes as to the way we choose to see and perceive this reality we all live in.

Regards Tony
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Haha. I was wondering what you meant by N/A which worked in my mind as Not Available but now I get you were saying Not Applicable. You are right, the Quran is not applicable as well, but its relevant to this particular thread so I thought of adding it at the end of it because its about the Bahai Messiah.

So how do you think these criteria applies to Bahaullah?
At least Jesus was a Jew. :) Nah, the Baha'u'llah is just another one of a gazillion false messiahs. To be honest, I think bar Kochba is a better candidate, and he wasn't the messiah either.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
1 The Father is Baha'u'llah
2 Full sovereignty has been established, God allows men to rule the Material World.
3a World peace was offered by Messiah and rejected, the details given for the Lesser Peace, which is fast approaching.
3b Fulfilled, started with Adict of Toleration 1844 and unfolding since then
3c Fulfilled and practiced, to obey Torah is to accept the Messiah.
4 Offered and recorded as to what must happen..... Etc

As you can see it all becomes as to the way we choose to see and perceive this reality we all live in.

Regards Tony
Hi Tony. You have done a good job outlining Bahai beliefs. But you have not presented any arguments for them, not even bad arguments.

The truth is, I've taken on these claims before, and have no interest in arguing with you again. Why reinvent the wheel? As I told you before, the Baha'u'llah did not fulfill any of the messianic prophecies. All of the Bahai claims, such as him being born the year of the edict, fall woefully short, and many prophecies, such as world peace, are just hilariously unmet. 'Nuff said.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Hi Tony. You have done a good job outlining Bahai beliefs. But you have not presented any arguments for them, not even bad arguments.

The truth is, I've taken on these claims before, and have no interest in arguing with you again. Why reinvent the wheel? As I told you before, the Baha'u'llah did not fulfill any of the messianic prophecies. All of the Bahai claims, such as him being born the year of the edict, fall woefully short, and many prophecies, such as world peace, are just hilariously unmet. 'Nuff said.

It is true we see life differently. My task in life is to do as asked by the Messiah. No argument is useful. Discussion moves us further forward, even If opinions differ. I thank you any time we have any discussion. I see in all things we can learn. The questions you ask, the comments you make enable me to dig deeper, search more than I had previously considered to do.

I can but Love all people, live as a world citizen and continue to offer the Peace foretold, but I can not choose to be silent, that is akin to not accepting what will unfold.

I wish you well and happy as these are challenging times, that will throw greater tests our way.

God bless always.

Regards Tony
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It is true we see life differently. My task in life is to do as asked by the Messiah.
Baruch Hashem, Tony. As I've encouraged you in this many times, all God asks of you is to believe in him and live life loving your neighbor as yourself. You do this. I find it most reassuring, our differences aside.

Shalom,

Indigo Child.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The great thing about belief is that it is organic, it can grow as one feeds faith with more reason based in truth and not one's own thoughts.

My current understanding is that the Quran was recited by Muhammad and it is the Word given by Allah. It took people away from Idol worship, back to worship of and submission to, our One God, Allah.

As such, to me the Quran is life, there is no life without it and many possible tangents of thought and discussion arise from such a question.

Regards Tony

I just wish to make a statement. You said "Our One God, Allah". Allah means The One God. Allah Means The God. Thus, your statement is like saying "My only father, the only father".

Anyway, do you believe that the Quran is the inerrant word of God, the whole book, or do you have any other form of criticism to it?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I just wish to make a statement. You said "Our One God, Allah". Allah means The One God. Allah Means The God. Thus, your statement is like saying "My only father, the only father".

Anyway, do you believe that the Quran is the inerrant word of God, the whole book, or do you have any other form of criticism to it?

When I say God, it is the One God I talk about. I used Allah to confirm that to you. I personally see God is above all names. That is a topic itself.

I can not critique the Quran, these are quotes from the writings;

"Muhammad, Himself, as the end of His mission drew nigh, spoke these words: "Verily, I leave amongst you My twin weighty testimonies: The Book of God and My Family."...With unswerving vision, with pure heart, and sanctified spirit, consider attentively what God hath established as the testimony of guidance for His people in His Book, which is recognized as authentic by both the high and lowly. (Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Íqán, pars. 222-223)

"They must...approach reverently and with a mind purged from preconceived ideas the study of the Qur'án which, apart from the sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá'í Revelations, constitutes the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God."

(Shoghi Effendi, Advent of Divine Justice, p. 49)

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
When I say God, it is the One God I talk about. I used Allah to confirm that to you. I personally see God is above all names. That is a topic itself.

I can not critique the Quran, these are quotes from the writings;

"Muhammad, Himself, as the end of His mission drew nigh, spoke these words: "Verily, I leave amongst you My twin weighty testimonies: The Book of God and My Family."...With unswerving vision, with pure heart, and sanctified spirit, consider attentively what God hath established as the testimony of guidance for His people in His Book, which is recognized as authentic by both the high and lowly. (Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Íqán, pars. 222-223)

"They must...approach reverently and with a mind purged from preconceived ideas the study of the Qur'án which, apart from the sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá'í Revelations, constitutes the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God."

(Shoghi Effendi, Advent of Divine Justice, p. 49)

Regards Tony

I didnt ask to critique the Quran. I am amazed by your inability to answer a question directly.

Anyway, Effendi says that the Quran is "the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God"

So I presume you believe the same?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I didnt ask to critique the Quran. I am amazed by your inability to answer a question directly.

Anyway, Effendi says that the Quran is "the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God"

So I presume you believe the same?

Yes, as I do for the writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Did they not recognize Him as earlier prophesied in the Old and the New Testament an in all past scriptures?

Baha'is see that it has happened, but not as people have expected.

Maybe that humanity as a whole will now finally understand as to how a Messenger of God, is always rejected?

This is a rewording of another thread in this topic.

The vision for this thread embraces a wider audience, all of Humanity. We also have the Dates of AD1844 and AH1260 as a starting point.

Regards Tony
Jesus is a messianic figure in the eyes of many Christians because they don't know anyone greater than Jesus.
We see Lord Krishna as a kind of planetary Messiah who came to this planet just over 3500 years ago. The first great messianic Teacher was Lord Shiva whose advent was over 7000 years ago. Their lives and teachings changed the course of humanity.

Other great teachers such as Buddha and Mahavira kept the torch burning so to speak but they were not divine beings, just great teachers.
 
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