IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
certainly not anyone who misappropriates someone else's sacred texts.
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Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
- Start date
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Huh?
Did you reply to the wrong post by accident or something?
No clue how that random statement relates to anything I said.................
firedragon
Veteran Member
The problem is, the days this 666 issue was discussed people didnt know the emergence of another manuscript that says 616. So now you have to stick to your original teachings because its embarrassing to make changes and of course one will reject any chances of it.
And there is a guy called Kalki already in India who claims to be the Kalki Avatar. Even he was making some kind of calculations based on the believed dates of the Hindu scripture but other Hindu greats refute it based on their datings.
Millerism calculations were defied by other guys who claimed the "year of calculation" is 756 and another made it 758 which makes the day of the advent 2018 and 2016.
Anyway, all of these people cherry pick what they want and that is the fact throughout. I know I am making a general statement but I dont have a choice because everyone cherry picks. While scholars were having their debate on the beasts number (666 or 616) the faithful were angry with them because they dont wish to change their beliefs. And most non-christians who speak of Revelations and its prophecies dont really believe in the book, they only believe in this particular prophecy. there is no consistency or even a consistent methodology of criticism to pick and choose the appropriate scripture.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
Its not very difficult, they actually listen to Jesus and make 100% sure--EVERY utterance from God is learned over and over, year after year without fail. I know my teachers do.
As well as carry on the most important work ever given to a mortal-Luke 10, Acts 20:20.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
That is what the Jews still say they do.
Thus which of the 30,000 different ideas about Jesus the Christ could we consider may have got it right?
Then what is their authority of interpretation?
Regards Tony
It appears I have much more confidence that Muhammad is foretold in the Bible, than do all Muslims. Thus I can have great confidence that the Bible is the Word of God, as I can also say about the Quran.
Of course to see It that way, one also needs to include the Message the Bab gave, so I understand their quandary.
The explanations about the 1844 and 1260 prophecies are as strong or no doubt stronger than any faith has, for any prophecy, about their Messengers.
Regards Tony
firedragon
Veteran Member
Didnt answer my question mate. You are only making very vague comments. I asked about 622 and 610, why and why not.
You have been avoiding this question from the beginning. You may have a good reason, but you are not even attempting it. For this question, your solidarity with the Muslims, Christians, the Quran, the bible etc etc are all irrelevant.
I doubt one person can honestly miss this error for so long, so many days, and for the 14th time the same question is asked. Its impossible.
I have not avoided the question. I said it had no relevance to the prophecies interpretation.
It is simple, the Prophecy says Two Witnesses (Muhammed and Ali) will have power to give Prophecy for 1260 years and in that time certain events will take place.
The year the Bab gave the New Revelation from Allah was the year 1260 of Islam. The Prophecy is fulfilled with that Message as the Power to give Prophecy was now with the Bab, plain and simple.
Now you do not agree, that is fine, but trying to add details that do not matter, will not change the simplicity of the prophecy.
AH1260 is the same year AD1844.
Regards Tony
firedragon
Veteran Member
Its absolutely relevant. I have explained it, but you avoided 15 times.
If you believe the advent of islam is the beginning of your so called 1260 calendar, and that advent happened with Muhammed, it happened in 610, not 622.
You have contradicted yourself. You claim "advent of Islam", then you claim "Islamic calendar". They are two very different things. One began in 610, the other in 622.
This is only one of your inconsistencies.
It was not me that aligned the Islamic calender, that in time has plainly fulfiled Biblical Prophecy.
Hijri year - Wikipedia
The rest is an issue for your heart. I have seen no issue with it.
Regards Tony
firedragon
Veteran Member
Do you really think I don't have internet access to give me a wikipedia link to know what the hijri year is?
Another time you avoided the question.
Thanks and cheers.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The people who wrote them. Don't you know what cultural misappopriation is? I actually wouldn't mind if they read them. What I mind is that they apply their own interpretation to them, yanking them out of their cultural context. It's like wearing NDN regalia to trick or treat in.
I see that would be God given or not God given texts. God given belongs to all people, of all races.
Men written belongs to their own selves and that is the vision you have given in your reply. I do not accept that vision is from God and I am free to see what is from God.
Regards Tony
Or another time you choose not to acknowledgetge simplicity of the Prophecy. A prophecy that simply gives the year when the all embracing Message of Muhammad was fulfilled by the Bab.
As a result, peoples of all Faiths now embrace the Message of Muhammad given in the Quran.
Peace be with you.
Regards Tony
firedragon
Veteran Member
Its a very simple question. A portrayal of simplicity.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
No. Throughout the Torah, God says to Moses, "Speak to the Children of Israel," NOT speak to all people.
firedragon
Veteran Member
The Messiah according to the Jewish thought was and is (discussed with Jesus also in mind)
1. A descendant of David. The Gospel of Matthew, which is the second earliest Gospel to be written cites Jesus as the son of David but it was probably written 3 decades or more after Jesus died so maybe the Jews never knew Jesus as such. And if Matthew picked up this allusion from an older source at that time there were many people claiming to be "The Messiah" so maybe it was lost in the clutter.
2. The messiah will attain sovereignty over Israel. Jesus entered Jerusalem after a long ministry which the Romans did not find as threatening enough until he did, and within a few days Jesus and his movement was crushed and he was crucified. So he actually did not gain sovereignty over Israel. Thus, the Jews did not recognise him as there Messiah that they were expecting.
3. The Jewish Messiah was to bring global peace, bring all the Jews from all over the world and make them all obey and follow the Mosaic "law" (Torah) which never happened in their eyes.
4. When the Messiah comes, that will be times when there is no one that can be called rich or poor, which is interpreted as all will be rich so there won't be any need or opportunity for charity. So everyone will be equal. The Babylonian Talmud is explicit in that. So that kind of time has not yet come.
5. The talmud also instructs the one who is awaiting the Messiah not to drink wine during the weekdays but only on the Sabbath day or on a special day like a festival. After all, the Messiah can come any day. But this is dedicated to a Nazarite who awaits the coming of the Messiah. While discussing this, it mentions Elijah, the preparer of the path for the Messiah, who will never come on the Sabbath. And there is an argument there that The messiah might come directly without the coming of Elijah but this was all to do with how much the Nazarite was allowed to drink and may as well be a sacred way of warning alone. If John the Baptist asked Jesus if he was Elijah, and he said he is not, (Among saying he is not "that prophet") John is not Elijah either.
6. The war of the Gog and Magog has to take place prior to the Messiahs advent. Gog and Magog has been associated with Alexander based on the Quranic interpretation of the word dhul-qarnain is the dual plural of Qarana which in its natural arabic meaning, means man of two generations thus him being Alexander is an assumption based on the wall story which may have influenced this thinking. So its more of an assumption based on some parallels in Alexander Romance, than based on any kind of real evidence. various theories exist what this god and Magog is, some based on characteristics and some based on the name itself like the Lidian king 7 centuries before Jesus who had a name that sounds like it (Gygas to my memory) and then the Jewish Midrash claiming both refer to the same conquering nation that will wage war against Israel itself. So there are various ideas about this and it has been of paramount importance to many.
7. The advent of the Messiah will happen right after this and it will be the "Worst period for the people of Israel". One must remember that the Messiahs job is to bring all the people of Israel from all over the world and get them under the Mosaic Torah. So when we refer to the "people of Israel" it does not mean those reside in Israel which is a big misunderstanding of those who are non-jewish. Thus taking this criteria into consideration the persecution of the Nazi regime seem to be the "worst period for the people of Israel". This is mentioned as I remember in the same area where the singing of praise or the small "Hallel" (Hallelujah is made of the word Hallel which means to fanatically praise)
Thinking from the perspective of the Quran
8. the Messiah will never be a God because God is ahadun, there is nothing else that is divine (no ilah), and of course he already came and his name is eesa. Ain, ye, seen. (very similar to the Gree Iesous). He was Bikalimathun Minha or a word from him (which is a synonym for an "ordain of God"), A rasool, Eesabnu Maryama or son of Mary, he was born while Mary was guarding her Farj or chastity. He is named by name, not inference. The return and coming back of the Messiah is not in the Quran (Some people are definitely gonna get hung up on this particular point for a long time I assure anyone who reads this because this is the single point that is paramount to people and their respective theologies). There is no mention of Jesus coming back in the Quran. It is extra Quranic, eisegesis, inference. Anyway, this is what the Quran says about the Messiah. So he has already come and gone (according to the Quran).
1. A descendant of David. The Gospel of Matthew, which is the second earliest Gospel to be written cites Jesus as the son of David but it was probably written 3 decades or more after Jesus died so maybe the Jews never knew Jesus as such. And if Matthew picked up this allusion from an older source at that time there were many people claiming to be "The Messiah" so maybe it was lost in the clutter.
2. The messiah will attain sovereignty over Israel. Jesus entered Jerusalem after a long ministry which the Romans did not find as threatening enough until he did, and within a few days Jesus and his movement was crushed and he was crucified. So he actually did not gain sovereignty over Israel. Thus, the Jews did not recognise him as there Messiah that they were expecting.
3. The Jewish Messiah was to bring global peace, bring all the Jews from all over the world and make them all obey and follow the Mosaic "law" (Torah) which never happened in their eyes.
4. When the Messiah comes, that will be times when there is no one that can be called rich or poor, which is interpreted as all will be rich so there won't be any need or opportunity for charity. So everyone will be equal. The Babylonian Talmud is explicit in that. So that kind of time has not yet come.
5. The talmud also instructs the one who is awaiting the Messiah not to drink wine during the weekdays but only on the Sabbath day or on a special day like a festival. After all, the Messiah can come any day. But this is dedicated to a Nazarite who awaits the coming of the Messiah. While discussing this, it mentions Elijah, the preparer of the path for the Messiah, who will never come on the Sabbath. And there is an argument there that The messiah might come directly without the coming of Elijah but this was all to do with how much the Nazarite was allowed to drink and may as well be a sacred way of warning alone. If John the Baptist asked Jesus if he was Elijah, and he said he is not, (Among saying he is not "that prophet") John is not Elijah either.
6. The war of the Gog and Magog has to take place prior to the Messiahs advent. Gog and Magog has been associated with Alexander based on the Quranic interpretation of the word dhul-qarnain is the dual plural of Qarana which in its natural arabic meaning, means man of two generations thus him being Alexander is an assumption based on the wall story which may have influenced this thinking. So its more of an assumption based on some parallels in Alexander Romance, than based on any kind of real evidence. various theories exist what this god and Magog is, some based on characteristics and some based on the name itself like the Lidian king 7 centuries before Jesus who had a name that sounds like it (Gygas to my memory) and then the Jewish Midrash claiming both refer to the same conquering nation that will wage war against Israel itself. So there are various ideas about this and it has been of paramount importance to many.
7. The advent of the Messiah will happen right after this and it will be the "Worst period for the people of Israel". One must remember that the Messiahs job is to bring all the people of Israel from all over the world and get them under the Mosaic Torah. So when we refer to the "people of Israel" it does not mean those reside in Israel which is a big misunderstanding of those who are non-jewish. Thus taking this criteria into consideration the persecution of the Nazi regime seem to be the "worst period for the people of Israel". This is mentioned as I remember in the same area where the singing of praise or the small "Hallel" (Hallelujah is made of the word Hallel which means to fanatically praise)
Thinking from the perspective of the Quran
8. the Messiah will never be a God because God is ahadun, there is nothing else that is divine (no ilah), and of course he already came and his name is eesa. Ain, ye, seen. (very similar to the Gree Iesous). He was Bikalimathun Minha or a word from him (which is a synonym for an "ordain of God"), A rasool, Eesabnu Maryama or son of Mary, he was born while Mary was guarding her Farj or chastity. He is named by name, not inference. The return and coming back of the Messiah is not in the Quran (Some people are definitely gonna get hung up on this particular point for a long time I assure anyone who reads this because this is the single point that is paramount to people and their respective theologies). There is no mention of Jesus coming back in the Quran. It is extra Quranic, eisegesis, inference. Anyway, this is what the Quran says about the Messiah. So he has already come and gone (according to the Quran).