Why Diplomacy wont succeed in Palestine

[leibowde84]

The majority, by a good margin, of the Jews living in Israel were born there. Most are third-generation now, in fact, I believe. Wouldn't be right to kick them out of their country. Neither is it right that the Israeli government continues to perform its steady marginalisation and persecution of the Palestinian people.

The fact is that a two-state solution can't work anymore because the Israeli government has worked to make it entirely implausible now, by entirely breaking up any sort of contiguous territory in the West Bank. And of course Gaza is run by a terrorist group.

But a one-state solution isn't on the cards right now either, as it'd be suicide for the currently dominant political parties in Israel to produce an Arab-majority country, as well as being anathema to them for ideological reasons. Moreover, most Israelis and Palestinians wouldn't want it anymore, as the whole thing is becoming more and more polarised as there's less and less human contact between individuals of either side, and the extremists on both sides are growing in number.

I've got to say, the fact that Gaza is run by a known-terrorist organization rather than elected officials is the deciding factor in my decision to support Israel. While I am open-minded and constantly trying to challenge this view, as I know horrible things are done by both sides, I cannot make myself OK with negotiating with a terrorist organization of any kind.

 

[Kirran]

I've got to say, the fact that Gaza is run by a known-terrorist organization rather than elected officials is the deciding factor in my decision to support Israel. While I am open-minded and constantly trying to challenge this view, as I know horrible things are done by both sides, I cannot make myself OK with negotiating with a terrorist organization of any kind.

It's a shame. Fetah isn't anywhere near so bad, and are actually astonishingly level-headed given what their people have gone through and are going through in the West Bank.

I don't support any involved party outright.

EDIT: Also, Hamas were elected originally. This was on the basis of the fact they provided some form of welfare net to the Gazan people, and nobody else did, so of course they'd vote for them. Then, once they were in, and the Gazans could see what they were like, it was too late. No more elections. Then the radicalisation began.

 

[leibowde84]

It's a shame. Fetah isn't anywhere near so bad, and are actually astonishingly level-headed given what their people have gone through and are going through in the West Bank.

I don't support any involved party outright.

EDIT: Also, Hamas were elected originally. This was on the basis of the fact they provided some form of welfare net to the Gazan people, and nobody else did, so of course they'd vote for them. Then, once they were in, and the Gazans could see what they were like, it was too late. No more elections. Then the radicalisation began.

I'm sorry, but that is not quite "elected" in my book.

 

[Tumah]

Then the radicalisation began.

You mean no one thought that the Hamas terrorist organization held radical views before they were elected into office?
That seems preposterously shortsighted.
I think it was more like, the people thought Hamas would be the ones to bring them the victory they were looking for.

 

[metis]

Just a reminder that el-Fatah worked out a cooperative agreement with Hamas last year, only to have Hamas respond by executing some el-Fatah supporters in Gaza. Neither of them are anywhere close to being level-headed or guaranteers of peace, and both of them would joyously love to destroy Israel.

 

[Kirran]

I'm sorry, but that is not quite "elected" in my book.

Not a free and fair election, I'd say no.

You mean no one thought that the Hamas terrorist organization held radical views before they were elected into office?
That seems preposterously shortsighted.
I think it was more like, the people thought Hamas would be the ones to bring them the victory they were looking for.

Maybe to some people. But as I say, nobody else was providing welfare.

I can totally understand the motivation for those who did want to fight back. They'd been driven from their homes.

 

[Kirran]

Just a reminder that el-Fatah worked out a cooperative agreement with Hamas last year, only to have Hamas respond by executing some el-Fatah supporters in Gaza. Neither of them are anywhere close to being level-headed or guaranteers of peace, and both of them would joyously love to destroy Israel.

Fatah actually is pretty practical-minded. Sure, they have some more radical people among them. But so does the Israeli government.

 

[columbus]

Jews knows that our date is on the battlefield when muslims are united behind one amiir.

Except it is not just the Jews.
I'm confident that there are more hardcore Zionists in Texas than in Israel.
This is one of the main reasons that Israel enjoys such a high level of support in the USA. And since it is based on Scripture there is no reasoning with Fundy Christians on the subject.
Tom

 

[Kirran]

Jews knows that our date is on the battlefield when muslims are united behind one amiir.

@Tumah, being a Jew, you certainly have this date on your wall planner. Or in the calendar on your iPhone, perhaps.

 

[metis]

With Hamas, it has less to do with Israel's responses than with the fact that Israel exists. Unlike el-Fatah, the Hamas leaders are firmly Islamic that believe in the Hadith teaching that once land is under Islamic control, it must always remain under Islamic control.

Therefore, even if Israel was 100% benevolent to all Palestinians, which is what I personally hope they would be, nevertheless Hamas will never accept Jewish, Christian, or secular domination of any lands in that region.

 

[leibowde84]

With Hamas, it has less to do with Israel's responses than with the fact that Israel exists. Unlike el-Fatah, the Hamas leaders are firmly Islamic that believe in the Hadith teaching that once land is under Islamic control, it must always remain under Islamic control.

Therefore, even if Israel was 100% benevolent to all Palestinians, which is what I personally hope they would be, nevertheless Hamas will never accept Jewish, Christian, or secular domination of any lands in that region.

Is that really an Islamic belief? That once a territory is under Islamic control it must always be? That is a pretty darn evil concept.

 

[metis]

Fatah actually is pretty practical-minded. Sure, they have some more radical people among them. But so does the Israeli government.

False equivalence. El-Fatah had long supported terrorist attacks against civilian targets in Israel, thus necessitating the building of the Wall. They also passed legislation making Islam the official religion at the expense of Christians living there, and part of that resolution also decreed that no Jews could live in the WB.

 

[metis]

Is that really an Islamic belief? That once a territory is under Islamic control it must always be? That is a pretty darn evil concept.

Yep, and I've posted this many times, and not one Muslim here or at another website has even claimed otherwise.

 

[Kirran]

False equivalence. El-Fatah had long supported terrorist attacks against civilian targets in Israel, thus necessitating the building of the Wall. They also passed legislation making Islam the official religion at the expense of Christians living there, and part of that resolution also decreed that no Jews could live in the WB.

Yeah, I'm against those things. Although I don't think Fatah has by any means unilaterally supported such terrorist attacks, although I don't doubt members of Fatah have sanctioned them.

Also, the official religion thing is a shame. I also think that Israel's explicitly Jewish nature is a shame.

But the Israeli government has long supported the bulldozing of the homes of Palestinians, the restriction of their movements to inhumane levels (NOT a practical security measure, as the propaganda states), the destruction of their livelihoods, the idea they have no rights to live in Israel/Palestine etc.

 

[Kirran]

Yep, and I've posted this many times, and not one Muslim here or at another website has even claimed otherwise.

Watch out Spain and Portugal.

 

[metis]

Yeah, I'm against those things.

But the Israeli government has long supported the bulldozing of the homes of Palestinians, the restriction of their movements to inhumane levels (NOT a practical security measure, as the propaganda states), the destruction of their livelihoods, the idea they have no rights to live in Israel/Palestine etc.

The bulldozing of homes came as a response to Israeli civilians being targeted by suicide bombers targeting civilians, so it was homes destroyed to killing human lives. The restriction of movement came also as a response to terrorist attacks, with some reaching as high as five attempts per day during their peak.

There's roughly 1 & 1/2 million Arabs living in Israel, they have rights, and we don't seeing them lining up to leave even though they're free to do so. However, yes there is too much discrimination against them, imo.

 

[metis]

Watch out Spain and Portugal.

... and my wife was born and raised in Sicily, so ...

 

[Kirran]

The bulldozing of homes came as a response to Israeli civilians being targeted by suicide bombers targeting civilians, so it was homes destroyed to killing human lives. The restriction of movement came also as a response to terrorist attacks, with some reaching as high as five attempts per day during their peak.

There's roughly 1 & 1/2 million Arabs living in Israel, they have rights, and we don't seeing them lining up to leave even though they're free to do so. However, yes there is too much discrimination against them, imo.

So the correct response to having your civilians targeted is to target the enemies' civilians? (EDIT: Also, there are some Palestinians who carry out suicide attacks, this doesn't mean their government is necessarily sanctioning this. Anymore than any Muslim country in the world, supports jihadis coming out of it. For that matter, the UK doesn't support those British people who've joined IS) The continuing marginalisation of Palestinians in the West Bank by the Israeli government is only worsening the situation for everyone involved for the sake of imperialistic conquering of territory.

My rights comment was more targeted at the lack of a Palestinian right of return.

... and my wife was born and raised in Sicily, so ...

While we're at it, much of the Balkans, Greece, most of India...

 

[metis]

So the correct response to having your civilians targeted is to target the enemies' civilians? The continuing marginalisation of Palestinians in the West Bank by the Israeli government is only worsening the situation for everyone involved for the sake of imperialistic conquering of territory.

My rights comment was more targeted at the lack of a Palestinian right of return.

It was left up to the Israeli government in 1948 in regards to the "right of return" of the Palestinians into Israel, and that's why there's 1 & 1/2 million of them there now. Those that fought against Israel or supported the Arab countries that attacked, by and large were not allowed to return. Meanwhile, 5/6 of the partitioned land of Palestine went to Jordan as the Palestinian country, and most that now live there are indeed Palestinian. Over and over again the Palestinian leaders had a chance to go for peace, but they never did, and actions and often inactions have implications.

So, under attack by either Hamas and/or el-Fatah, including suicide bombers, what do you suggest should be Israel's response?

 

[Kirran]

It was left up to the Israeli government in 1948 in regards to the "right of return" of the Palestinians into Israel, and that's why there's 1 & 1/2 million of them there now. Those that fought against Israel or supported the Arab countries that attacked, by and large were not allowed to return. Meanwhile, 5/6 of the partitioned land of Palestine went to Jordan as the Palestinian country, and most that now live there are indeed Palestinian. Over and over again the Palestinian leaders had a chance to go for peace, but they never did, and actions and often inactions have implications.

So, under attack by either Hamas and/or el-Fatah, including suicide bombers, what do you suggest should be Israel's response?

If I had verifiable Jewish ancestry, I would be allowed to be a citizen of Israel.

My friends of Palestinian ancestry are not made Israeli citizens by virtue of their bloodline, even though it is derived from the same land, and has left there far more recently.

It is a shame that the Palestinian leaders never just conceded they'd lost some land at each stage. But sadly, this is the case, and it makes sense that they'd be incensed at having had their land taken. In any case, we've gotta work with the situation on the ground.

When you say under attack, it sounds like they're besieged. They get a few suicide bombers by Islamist and radical nationalist groups, and a few rockets which very rarely hit anybody. In retaliation, they drop bombs, killing thousands of people, and absolutely marginalise and dehumanise millions of people. This is not some even conflict, Israel has by far the upper hand.

What I think they should do is cease encouraging settlement in the West Bank through tax breaks, cheap housing etc (but they shouldn't withdraw). They should negotiate much more practical security measures, which actually maximise security. They should stop bulldozing the homes of Palestinians, stop taking their lands away from them. This would make the foundation for a real peace process. I can't see it happening though, which is a real shame.