Why Diplomacy wont succeed in Palestine

[columbus]

I thought it was the United Nations that gave the Jews their homeland back in 1948? Was God on the Security Council?

As we all know from the Book of Job, God is the author of all things. Both the good and the bad.
Tom

 

[leibowde84]

When a group believes that Bible gives them the right to steal lands and kick out her citizens then you know diplomacy wont work.
Do u really believe that zionists will give up the illegal settlements and return all to the Palestinians? Then u are very naive person. They believe all the lands of Levant and some parts of Iraq belongs to them.

Guns gave them acces to Palestine and at the end of the day its gonna be gun that makes them flee. This is the nature of mankind. Conquering by force. Read how many times Palestine changed hands during the Roman-Persian wars. Whoever believes in diplomacy and two-state solution must be kidding himself.


I know 100% for sure that Zionists hate to go back to the border of 1948.

Do you not agree that after the Holocaust the Jewish people needed a homeland? I mean, the world had to do something for them, right? I couldnt care less about what the Bible says about it, but they certainly needed a home with the rampant antisemitism in Europe, right?

 

[Akivah]

Is that really an Islamic belief? That once a territory is under Islamic control it must always be? That is a pretty darn evil concept.

How ever you want to label it, it is one of their beliefs. Al-Andalus is also known as Muslim Spain and Islamic Iberia. At its height, it even held a bit of southern France (Septimania).

On Wednesday, January 2, 2013, hundreds of Egyptians gathered in Safenex Square in Cairo to commemorate the 521st anniversary of the fall of Granada. The protest was organized by a group calling itself the Free Movement (Harakat Ahrar). The Spanish-language website webislam.com reported that the protestors organized a human chain around the square and held signs that said: "We have not forgotten Al-Andalus" and "We will definitely return."

Demonstrator: "As we speak, in Islamic Andalusia, in Spain, they are marching to celebrate the fall of the Islamic state of Andalusia, or Spain. While they are celebrating, we here are upset, because the Muslims used to rule in those European countries. Over there, they are celebrating the fact that they killed Muslims and drove out the Muslims rulers, who ruled them with justice.

{snip}

Demonstrator: "This is a good opportunity to remind people of the history of their Islamic nation, because a nation that forgets its history is, I’m sad to say, doomed to failure."

Demonstrator: "My name is Muhammad Gamal."

Reporter: "Muhammad, why are you demonstrating?"

Demonstrator: "At this very moment, there are celebrations in Spain, to mark the expulsion of the Muslims from Andalusia. We are here to respond to them, and say that Allah willing, we will return to Andalusia. We are here to remind people of this day of commemoration."

{snip}

Demonstrator: "We are trying to remind people of the history of Andalusia. It was toppled over 500 years ago by the Spaniards, who are occupying it to this day. We want to remind people that no matter how long the Spanish occupation of Andalusia continues, the day will come, Allah willing, when we liberate it and Islam will return."

Sheikh Kamel Zarouq, a member of Ansar Al-Sharia in Tunisia, which was posted on the Internet on April 30, 2013:

Our goal is to support the Islamic nation, to support our religion, to elevate the shari'a, and to spread the law of Muhammad. Our goal is to pull the nations out of darkness and into light. Our goal is to instate the shari'a, and regain Andalusia and Jerusalem."

{snip}

"The Prophet Muhammad said: "Rome shall be conquered." Rome will be conquered in our days.

Syrian MP Ahmad Shlash, which aired on Mayadeen TV on May 28, 2013.

As long as we are led by President Bashar, we will go to the end of the world. I do not exclude the possibility that with the men of Allah, we will regain Andalusia one of these days."

 

[leibowde84]

How ever you want to label it, it is one of their beliefs. Al-Andalus is also known as Muslim Spain and Islamic Iberia. At its height, it even held a bit of southern France (Septimania).

On Wednesday, January 2, 2013, hundreds of Egyptians gathered in Safenex Square in Cairo to commemorate the 521st anniversary of the fall of Granada. The protest was organized by a group calling itself the Free Movement (Harakat Ahrar). The Spanish-language website webislam.com reported that the protestors organized a human chain around the square and held signs that said: "We have not forgotten Al-Andalus" and "We will definitely return."


Sheikh Kamel Zarouq, a member of Ansar Al-Sharia in Tunisia, which was posted on the Internet on April 30, 2013:


Syrian MP Ahmad Shlash, which aired on Mayadeen TV on May 28, 2013.

That is horrifying. I feel like Islamic communities have to address this evil concept. The very idea that the world should be unified under one religion is just about the most herrendous thing I have ever heard. If that is what God wants, I need to rethink my adherence to his will.

 

[metis]

If I had verifiable Jewish ancestry, I would be allowed to be a citizen of Israel.

My friends of Palestinian ancestry are not made Israeli citizens by virtue of their bloodline, even though it is derived from the same land, and has left there far more recently.

It is a shame that the Palestinian leaders never just conceded they'd lost some land at each stage. But sadly, this is the case, and it makes sense that they'd be incensed at having had their land taken. In any case, we've gotta work with the situation on the ground.

When you say under attack, it sounds like they're besieged. They get a few suicide bombers by Islamist and radical nationalist groups, and a few rockets which very rarely hit anybody. In retaliation, they drop bombs, killing thousands of people, and absolutely marginalise and dehumanise millions of people. This is not some even conflict, Israel has by far the upper hand.

What I think they should do is cease encouraging settlement in the West Bank through tax breaks, cheap housing etc (but they shouldn't withdraw). They should negotiate much more practical security measures, which actually maximise security. They should stop bulldozing the homes of Palestinians, stop taking their lands away from them. This would make the foundation for a real peace process. I can't see it happening though, which is a real shame.

A "few" suicide bombers? As many as five per day is a "few"? A "few" rockets? Since when is 6000 rockets/missiles fired into Israel from Gaza over a span of around 5 years a "few"? Are you aware that two more were fired into Israel from Gaza last week?

But you didn't answer my question, namely what do you think Israel should do? I don't know where you live, but let me ask you if the country you lived in had 6000 rockets/missiles fired into it, aimed at your civilians, what would you expect your country to do? If you were the leader of your country under these circumstances, what actions would you take?

 

[leibowde84]

A "few" suicide bombers? As many as five per day is a "few"? A "few" rockets? Since when is 6000 rockets/missiles fired into Israel from Gaza a "few"? Are you aware that two more were fired into Israel from Gaza last week?

But you didn't answer my question, namely what do you think Israel should do? I don't know where you live, but let me ask you if the country you lived in had 6000 rockets/missiles fired into it, aimed at your civilians, what would you expect your country to do? If you were the leader of your country under these circumstances, what actions would you take?

i agree. The leader of Israel's concern is the welfare of the Israeli people. He has to do whatever it takes to protect the Israeli people. Bottom line.

 

[Kirran]

A "few" suicide bombers? As many as five per day is a "few"? A "few" rockets? Since when is 6000 rockets/missiles fired into Israel from Gaza over a span of around 5 years a "few"? Are you aware that two more were fired into Israel from Gaza last week?

But you didn't answer my question, namely what do you think Israel should do? I don't know where you live, but let me ask you if the country you lived in had 6000 rockets/missiles fired into it, aimed at your civilians, what would you expect your country to do? If you were the leader of your country under these circumstances, what actions would you take?

Dwarfed by the scale of the 'retaliatory' attacks. No, a few wasn't the right word, it's more than that, I agree.

I'm aware of the rockets last week. Landed in some fields, I believe. Of course, it is unacceptable that these rockets are being fired at all.

I would do my utmost to de-escalate tensions, to stop polarising the two nationalities, to build up a more valid dialogue with moderate factions within the Palestinian government, and work with them to undermine Hamas as much as possible. I don't excuse anything Hamas does, Hamas are a hugely dangerous Islamist group who are basically terrorists. I have no real sympathy with them. I do have sympathy with the Palestinian civilians living under their rule. But the West Bank has more Palestinians, who are under the rule of Fatah, who are much more amenable to dialogue, and would be far more so if their people weren't continuously being deprived of their lands and livelihoods, and if civilians weren't being killed in such numbers (this does not excuse suicide bombers and terrorist factions killing Israeli civilians either).

 

[metis]

Dwarfed by the scale of the 'retaliatory' attacks. No, a few wasn't the right word, it's more than that, I agree.

I'm aware of the rockets last week. Landed in some fields, I believe. Of course, it is unacceptable that these rockets are being fired at all.

I would do my utmost to de-escalate tensions, to stop polarising the two nationalities, to build up a more valid dialogue with moderate factions within the Palestinian government, and work with them to undermine Hamas as much as possible. I don't excuse anything Hamas does, Hamas are a hugely dangerous Islamist group who are basically terrorists. I have no real sympathy with them. I do have sympathy with the Palestinian civilians living under their rule. But the West Bank has more Palestinians, who are under the rule of Fatah, who are much more amenable to dialogue, and would be far more so if their people weren't continuously being deprived of their lands and livelihoods, and if civilians weren't being killed in such numbers (this does not excuse suicide bombers and terrorist factions killing Israeli civilians either).

But you keep avoiding the reality that Hamas would not let up on their attacks if the Israeli leadership were all men and women like Gandhi. Nor do I believe would el-Fatah, and that's based on their previous performances. Also, a reminder that it was el-Fatah that called off the latest round of negotiations and signed a cooperative agreement with Hamas. If Fatah truly wants a peaceful resolution, why in the world would they support Hamas?

BTW, are you aware that Hamas is continuing building these terror-tunnels? Have you ever heard Abbas denounce them and also the rockets/missiles fired into Israel? Was he willing to prosecute and penalize those in the WB that had launched rockets.missiles into Israel? When the families of suicide bombers received money from the Saudis, did Abbas tell them not to do this?

So, let me ask you again, namely that if your country was attacked as Israel has been, what actions would you take under similar circumstances?

 

[Kirran]

But you keep avoiding the reality that Hamas would not let up on their attacks if the Israeli leadership were all men and women like Gandhi. Nor do I believe would el-Fatah, and that's based on their previous performances. Also, a reminder that it was el-Fatah that called off the latest round of negotiations and signed a cooperative agreement with Hamas. If Fatah truly wants a peaceful resolution, why in the world would they support Hamas?

BTW, are you aware that Hamas is continuing building these terror-tunnels? Have you ever heard Abbas denounce them and also the rockets/missiles fired into Israel? Was he willing to prosecute and penalize those in the WB that had launched rockets.missiles into Israel? When the families of suicide bombers received money from the Saudis, did Abbas tell them not to do this?

So, let me ask you again, namely that if your country was attacked as Israel has been, what actions would you take under similar circumstances?

I haven't been clear. I think dealing with Hamas and dealing with Fatah need to be done separately.

I am not entirely sure why Fatah signed a co-operative agreement with Hamas, or why those various other things you mention. But it must be absolute hell trying to hold that government together in the West Bank, especially as more and more Palestinians are made homeless, destitute, penniless etc and don't see the government holding back the Israeli forces doing this, and as more of the young Palestinians are getting fired up and radicalised, either in nationalism or Islamism, so Fatah needs to keep as much unity there as possible so it doesn't just collapse.

I have already answered that question. I'll post it here again:

I would do my utmost to de-escalate tensions, to stop polarising the two nationalities, to build up a more valid dialogue with moderate factions within the Palestinian government, and work with them to undermine Hamas as much as possible.

 

[metis]

I haven't been clear. I think dealing with Hamas and dealing with Fatah need to be done separately.

I am not entirely sure why Fatah signed a co-operative agreement with Hamas, or why those various other things you mention. But it must be absolute hell trying to hold that government together in the West Bank, especially as more and more Palestinians are made homeless, destitute, penniless etc and don't see the government holding back the Israeli forces doing this, and as more of the young Palestinians are getting fired up and radicalised, either in nationalism or Islamism, so Fatah needs to keep as much unity there as possible so it doesn't just collapse.

So, el-Fatah has no real responsibility to its own people? Most of the financial problems have literally nothing to do with Israel's actions, and, as a matter of fact, Israel gives the P.A. millions every year, although the last payment has been held back because of Abba's endorsement of Hamas. And Israel has now been allowing more and more Palestinian agricultural products to be sold in Israel, so that's helping out.

And "radicalized"-- how about what Palestinian children are being taught regularly through books and probably lectures endorsed by both el-Fatah and Hamas? And what about the radicalization taught by so many imams at the mosques and on t.v.?

So, you still really haven't dealt with an important part of the question I previously asked, and this has to do with maybe military responses to being attacked. Launching rockets and sending suicide bombers into another country, as Hamas and el-Fatah have done, are acts of war, and pretty much all countries would respond with some sort of military action. Therefore, what should Israel do under these circumstances, iyo?

 

[Kirran]

So, el-Fatah has no real responsibility to its own people? Most of the financial problems have literally nothing to do with Israel's actions, and, as a matter of fact, Israel gives the P.A. millions every year, although the last payment has been held back because of Abba's endorsement of Hamas. And Israel has now been allowing more and more Palestinian agricultural products to be sold in Israel, so that's helping out.

And "radicalized"-- how about what Palestinian children are being taught regularly through books and probably lectures endorsed by both el-Fatah and Hamas? And what about the radicalization taught by so many imams at the mosques and on t.v.?

So, you still really haven't dealt with an important part of the question I previously asked, and this has to do with maybe military responses to being attacked. Launching rockets and sending suicide bombers into another country, as Hamas and el-Fatah have done, are acts of war, and pretty much all countries would respond with some sort of military action. Therefore, what should Israel do under these circumstances, iyo?

I never said they have no responsibility. Look, I don't think this is in any way one-sided. Fatah (which includes many moderate and reasonable factions, as well as those promoting violence) needs to take its radicals to task, and clean up its act, but this is very difficult while maintaining full control over the scattered communities of the West Bank. The primary reason that the West Bank has financial problems is because it's hugely difficult for Palestinians to travel between the C zones, and because they keep getting kicked out of their houses and off their land. And all the good land in the West Bank has been occupied by settlers (I acknowledge that those who have lived there a long time, were born there, etc, are no longer settlers, and I oppose withdrawal from the West Bank).

I'm against such radicalisation, I think Fatah needs to try and sort it out. I'm not saying for a second Fatah doesn't have issues, but just that this isn't all Palestine's fault. And of course I am against the hate speech spouted by Hamas and by radical imams.

I'm sorry for not answering the question in full. Allow me to do so now.

You asked about Hamas and Fatah, I'm going to deal with those questions separately.

Hamas, that's a tricky one. Because yes, it has continued to attack Israel, but it's also very hard to strike back without hitting civilian targets. Honestly, I see the most viable method by which they can be toppled to be working with opposing factions in the Palestinian government to undermine their authority, but it's gonna be tough. As with taking out any terrorist organisation, this is very difficult. But it needs to be done somehow.

Fatah, more straightforward. A little. The Israeli government needs to work with the moderate elements of Fatah (encouraged by genuine peace efforts) to push the radical elements to the sidelines.

 

[metis]

You asked about Hamas and Fatah, I'm going to deal with those questions separately.

Hamas, that's a tricky one. Because yes, it has continued to attack Israel, but it's also very hard to strike back without hitting civilian targets. Honestly, I see the most viable method by which they can be toppled to be working with opposing factions in the Palestinian government to undermine their authority, but it's gonna be tough. As with taking out any terrorist organisation, this is very difficult. But it needs to be done somehow.

Fatah, more straightforward. A little. The Israeli government needs to work with the moderate elements of Fatah (encouraged by genuine peace efforts) to push the radical elements to the sidelines.

Pretty much all wars involve civilians getting killed-- unfortunately-- but I do not believe they should intentionally be targeted, and there's no evidence that I've seen that Israel has done that. Matter of fact, the opposite appears to be the case as Israel before responding with airstrikes sent warning through t.v., radio, dropping leaflets, and even making phone calls. Even the former commander of British troops in Afghanistan said there's no precedence for that.

So, I hear what you're saying above, but my question is what would you do if you was president of Israel, and Hamas were to launch over 10,000 missiles/rockets into your country? How can you stop these rocket attacks since most of them are launched from civilian areas? How do you destroy the terror tunnels without invading? How do you stop the Palestinians for making more rockets unless you hit their factories, which are located in or near civilian populations?

Generally speaking, the #1 priority of a federal government is to protect their own people, so exactly how is Israel to do this if they can't attack back?

 

[Quetzal]

Pretty much all wars involve civilians getting killed-- unfortunately-- but I do not believe they should intentionally be targeted, and there's no evidence that I've seen that Israel has done that. Matter of fact, the opposite appears to be the case as Israel before responding with airstrikes sent warning through t.v., radio, dropping leaflets, and even making phone calls. Even the former commander of British troops in Afghanistan said there's no precedence for that.

So, I hear what you're saying above, but my question is what would you do if you was president of Israel, and Hamas were to launch over 10,000 missiles/rockets into your country? How can you stop these rocket attacks since most of them are launched from civilian areas? How do you destroy the terror tunnels without invading? How do you stop the Palestinians for making more rockets unless you hit their factories, which are located in or near civilian populations?

Generally speaking, the #1 priority of a federal government is to protect their own people, so exactly how is Israel to do this if they can't attack back?

There is no silver bullet here. I guess my question is regarding the underlying cause of conflict and how to address that. Which is an entirely new topic with many possibilities. However, I will say that invasion would not stop the problem. I believe another cell would emerge not long after. It's a very complicated case, for sure.

 

[Akivah]

But it must be absolute hell trying to hold that government together in the West Bank, especially as more and more Palestinians are made homeless, destitute, penniless etc and don't see the government holding back the Israeli forces doing this, and as more of the young Palestinians are getting fired up and radicalised, either in nationalism or Islamism, so Fatah needs to keep as much unity there as possible so it doesn't just collapse.

You seem to be unaware that most of the damage to the arab civilians comes from their own government, not from Israel. It is their government that places rocket launchers and military hardware in schools and hospitals, it is their government that diverts building materials towards terror tunnels, it is their government that purposefully uses civilians as human shields, it is their government that teaches their youth to hate Jews, it is their government that supports children military training camps. While Israel does more than any other government on Earth to minimize civilian casualties, it is the arab government that tries to maximize their own civilian deaths. And their tactics are successful as most people put the blame on Israel, so the arabs have no reason to change.

 

[Quetzal]

You seem to be unaware that most of the damage to the arab civilians comes from their own government, not from Israel. It is their government that places rocket launchers and military hardware in schools and hospitals, it is their government that diverts building materials towards terror tunnels, it is their government that purposefully uses civilians as human shields, it is their government that teaches their youth to hate Jews, it is their government that supports children military training camps. While Israel does more than any other government on Earth to minimize civilian casualties, it is the arab government that tries to maximize their own civilian deaths. And their tactics are successful as most people put the blame on Israel, so the arabs have no reason to change.

I am a bit new to this topic, do you have any sources or info to share about this?

 

[Flankerl]

Just like the crusaders were invincible right? Loll


At the end of the day they were kicked out.

Too bad that numbers don't count if you are technological vastly inferior.

But I know Allah will protect the proud and valiant warriors of Islam charging into Israel on their horses and camels. Obviously they would only harm Zionist Jews. Non-Zionist Jews would of course not be harmed.

This is probably not so far off what you actually believe.

 

[metis]

I am a bit new to this topic, do you have any sources or info to share about this?

This should help: 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[metis]

There is no silver bullet here. I guess my question is regarding the underlying cause of conflict and how to address that. Which is an entirely new topic with many possibilities. However, I will say that invasion would not stop the problem. I believe another cell would emerge not long after. It's a very complicated case, for sure.

Actually Israel had no choice but to invade in order to destroy the tunnels, and the Egyptians destroyed over a thousand of them on their side of the Egyptian/Gaza border. No country is going to allow itself to have their people targeted without trying to stop it.

 

[Kirran]

Pretty much all wars involve civilians getting killed-- unfortunately-- but I do not believe they should intentionally be targeted, and there's no evidence that I've seen that Israel has done that. Matter of fact, the opposite appears to be the case as Israel before responding with airstrikes sent warning through t.v., radio, dropping leaflets, and even making phone calls. Even the former commander of British troops in Afghanistan said there's no precedence for that.

So, I hear what you're saying above, but my question is what would you do if you was president of Israel, and Hamas were to launch over 10,000 missiles/rockets into your country? How can you stop these rocket attacks since most of them are launched from civilian areas? How do you destroy the terror tunnels without invading? How do you stop the Palestinians for making more rockets unless you hit their factories, which are located in or near civilian populations?

Generally speaking, the #1 priority of a federal government is to protect their own people, so exactly how is Israel to do this if they can't attack back?

I don't know how to deal with Hamss, I really don't. It's incredibly difficult. Whatever the situation involved in its genesis, we've gotta deal with the situation on the ground.

I am much clearer on the West Bank situation. They're highly distinct situations.

 

[Kirran]

You seem to be unaware that most of the damage to the arab civilians comes from their own government, not from Israel. It is their government that places rocket launchers and military hardware in schools and hospitals, it is their government that diverts building materials towards terror tunnels, it is their government that purposefully uses civilians as human shields, it is their government that teaches their youth to hate Jews, it is their government that supports children military training camps. While Israel does more than any other government on Earth to minimize civilian casualties, it is the arab government that tries to maximize their own civilian deaths. And their tactics are successful as most people put the blame on Israel, so the arabs have no reason to change.

They don't have one Arab government. This seems to address Hamas. I have no disagreement on that score.