Why do Athiests challenge Thiests?

[Enai de a lukal]

This "double truth" is perfectly reasonable to many 'Eastern' ways of thinking.

All the worse for them, then.

There are levels of reality, and different truths in each.

Nothing too remarkable about that, nor does that have anything to do with double-truth; this is certainly true of the sciences- different fields and different levels of analysis have different axioms, different terminologies, and different truths.

Even from a western point of view, what is true from a Quantum perspective is impossible from a Relativistic perspective is impossible from a Newtonian perspective.

Right, because we know that there's something amiss with relativity and Newtonian mechanics.

Why can't God both exist and not exist?

Um, because that is self-refuting? If God exists, it follows, necessarily, that God does not NOT EXIST (and visa versa).

Double-truth and subjective truth are not tenable views of truth; and in the vast majority of cases, "true for me" doesn't actually mean true- it means I want it to be true. Double-truth is usually a guise for wishful thinking (i.e. it may be false, but I want it to be true, so we'll pretend its true "for me").

 

[Me Myself]

We can only know subjective truth.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

That sucks, because there is no such thing (what is called "subjective truth" is usually nothing more than self-deception). As a better man than I said-

"Talk of 'subjective' truth suggests that 'objective' truth is, after all, not everything; and that is true enough. But it is all the truth there is"- W. Kaufmann

 

[Willamena]

We can only know subjective truth.

Rather, we can only know the truth as we each know it.

 

[Riverwolf]

Everyone is an atheist to some degree. Christians do not believe in the 12 Olympian gods, allah, Imhotep, etc. for example. Some of us just go one god further.

Um, hello. Polytheist.

 

[Riverwolf]

What if you die an the Greeks and their Olympian gods were right?

Then you'll likely just go to the Asphodel fields, or if you were truly heroic, then Elysium, or truly EVIL (which to the Greeks was pretty easily recognizable), then Tartarus.

Or the Egyptians and theirs?

You're fine so long as your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds.

 

[Riverwolf]

If you can't see how "for whom God exists" would seem to imply that God exists, for them, and thus be misleading, or seem to imply that you're suggesting some sort of double-truth, then perhaps you should look again...

Mankind's collective knowledge does not include God. But that doesn't mean there absolutely IS no God/Gods.

So, yeah, it's really anyone's guess if we're not using the deification definition.

 

[adi2d]

Mankind's collective knowledge does not include God. But that doesn't mean there absolutely IS no God/Gods.

So, yeah, it's really anyone's guess if we're not using the deification definition.

Having bad eyes can be funny sometimes. I read that as defication definition
Sorry for the distraction. Off I go to lurk somewhere else

 

[Monk Of Reason]

A lot of my Athiest friends challenge my beliefs, And it got me wondering, Why?

I challenge an Athiests beliefs because I want to show them the love of God, To help save their immortal soul, And because I believe one can live a better life with Religion
(I base this on the fact that most morals conincide with the teachings of the Bible)

So my question is: Why do some non-religious people challenge the beliefs of those who are religious?

What do you gain from it?
What is there to gain from 'taking' someone's faith from them?
Is that not immoral to you?

I'm genuinley curious.

(Also, I'd rather not have the fact that it's because religious people killed others who weren't of the same faith, Wars that were caused by religion because
Most religion teaches you not to kill, So if you go against that, Then you'd kill for greed, lust, politics etc regardless of your faith.)

Actually its because many Atheists believe that Religion is uncessary and even harmful. We gain nothing out of it but the theist has everything to gain from it. Being retrospective of your own views is important in anything. One must fully analyze why one believes something. This goes with political views, religious views and even moral views.

I personally hold the notion that the more secular reasoning we have (reguardless of how religious) the better off we'll be. No laws should be dictated by religion and no one should feel outcasted or scorned by religious differences. It solves a lot of fighting and problems. Not that those problems wouldn't persist but rather we could take our time to figure out practical and realistic ways to fix these problems.

Though on the last part do you think that atheists think nothing of murder and other moral disfunctions?

 

[nazz]

Actually its because many Atheists believe that Religion is uncessary and even harmful. We gain nothing out of it but the theist has everything to gain from it. Being retrospective of your own views is important in anything. One must fully analyze why one believes something. This goes with political views, religious views and even moral views.

I agree. I can say that challenges atheists have made about my beliefs have caused me to jettison many that were unsupportable. It has also strengthened others and allowed me to formulate better arguments in their defense. So it's a good thing in my book.

 

[Thana]

Actually its because many Atheists believe that Religion is uncessary and even harmful. We gain nothing out of it but the theist has everything to gain from it. Being retrospective of your own views is important in anything. One must fully analyze why one believes something. This goes with political views, religious views and even moral views.

I personally hold the notion that the more secular reasoning we have (reguardless of how religious) the better off we'll be. No laws should be dictated by religion and no one should feel outcasted or scorned by religious differences. It solves a lot of fighting and problems. Not that those problems wouldn't persist but rather we could take our time to figure out practical and realistic ways to fix these problems.

Though on the last part do you think that atheists think nothing of murder and other moral disfunctions?

How is religion harmful?

If a man is prone to violence, Does it matter if he commits this violence in the name of religion? Would he not commit the same thing for his beliefs on politics?

Are you saying it's because society gains nothing from religion? Every church I've ever been to is avid with it's charities and community work, There's always an event going on or coming up.

Do you really not think that religious people analyze their beliefs? Question themselves and their faith?

No, Athiests are not immoral just because of Athiesm.
People are people, regardless of faith, Being religious does not perfect you, It does not make you a better person. I am not better than you, Nor you me.

 

[Thana]

Also, Thanks everyone for your replies to my original post.
I've learned alot, And think I have a better understanding of Athiesm

 

[Monk Of Reason]

How is religion harmful?

If a man is prone to violence, Does it matter if he commits this violence in the name of religion? Would he not commit the same thing for his beliefs on politics?

Are you saying it's because society gains nothing from religion? Every church I've ever been to is avid with it's charities and community work, There's always an event going on or coming up.

Do you really not think that religious people analyze their beliefs? Question themselves and their faith?

No, Athiests are not immoral just because of Athiesm.
People are people, regardless of faith, Being religious does not perfect you, It does not make you a better person. I am not better than you, Nor you me.

There are several arguments to be made on why religion is harmful. None of which (that I recognize) is increased murder or violence. I agree that people will be violent or harmful reguardless if they are religious or not. I feel religion has an uncanny ability to work as a "sheild" to protect such behaviors from otherwise reprecussive secular concequences.

An example of how religion is harmful right now is the opression of homosexuals in America right now. Another is the catholic church telling people they will go to hell if they use condoms. Even if those same people are in the AIDS ridden part of a war torn Africa and safe sex by the use of condoms would save hundreds of thousands of lives.

Things of that nature. Not that religion somehow compells someone to harm another in physical combat.

Charity exists outside of churches. In fact some of the most generous charites lay firmly within the secular realm. So I don't really attribute charity to churches. While it is commendable that churches do pursue such actions.

I don't really think many theists analyze their faith to an extensive degree. Some do. Many of those become Atheists. But this is based on my personal revelations and discoveries.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

There are several arguments to be made on why religion is harmful. None of which (that I recognize) is increased murder or violence. I agree that people will be violent or harmful reguardless if they are religious or not...

Charity exists outside of churches. In fact some of the most generous charites lay firmly within the secular realm. So I don't really attribute charity to churches. While it is commendable that churches do pursue such actions.

This is an important connection; if religion is to be absolved of its violent episodes as just all-too-human elements, then by the same token, the fact that humans are charitable whether they are religious or not means that religion cannot take credit for its charitable elements either. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Thana]

There are several arguments to be made on why religion is harmful. None of which (that I recognize) is increased murder or violence. I agree that people will be violent or harmful reguardless if they are religious or not. I feel religion has an uncanny ability to work as a "sheild" to protect such behaviors from otherwise reprecussive secular concequences.

An example of how religion is harmful right now is the opression of homosexuals in America right now. Another is the catholic church telling people they will go to hell if they use condoms. Even if those same people are in the AIDS ridden part of a war torn Africa and safe sex by the use of condoms would save hundreds of thousands of lives.

Things of that nature. Not that religion somehow compells someone to harm another in physical combat.

Charity exists outside of churches. In fact some of the most generous charites lay firmly within the secular realm. So I don't really attribute charity to churches. While it is commendable that churches do pursue such actions.

I don't really think many theists analyze their faith to an extensive degree. Some do. Many of those become Atheists. But this is based on my personal revelations and discoveries.

"I don't really think many theists analyze their faith to an extensive degree. Some do. Many of those become Atheists. But this is based on my personal revelations and discoveries"

I dislike that notion, As I know it to be generally untrue.
Do you think it is just the blind following the blind? That Thiests believe because, well because why?

I know you'll say something similar to 'It makes them feel good, Protects them, Excuses them etc' but that's not the case. It's more than that, I would not believe in God without proof. My proof may not be tangible, Nor viewable, But it's proof enough for me.
And I have analyzed it, and perhaps it is not logical or reasonable or rational, But something beyond that, And if you've never experienced that then I don't blame you for being skeptical.

Do you think religion creates homophobes? It's a personal view, And as you said, People use their religion as a shield.
And God clearly states, Hate the sin, love the sinner.
So those who oppress homosexuals are not doing God's will.

And I can't really argue for Catholicism, Since I disagree with most of that religion.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I dislike that notion, As I know it to be generally untrue.
Do you think it is just the blind following the blind? That Thiests believe because, well because why?

I know you'll say something similar to 'It makes them feel good, Protects them, Excuses them etc' but that's not the case. It's more than that, I would not believe in God without proof. My proof may not be tangible, Nor viewable, But it's proof enough for me.
And I have analyzed it, and perhaps it is not logical or reasonable or rational, But something beyond that, And if you've never experienced that then I don't blame you for being skeptical.

Do you think religion creates homophobes? It's a personal view, And as you said, People use their religion as a shield.
And God clearly states, Hate the sin, love the sinner.
So those who oppress homosexuals are not doing God's will.

And I can't really argue for Catholicism, Since I disagree with most of that religion.

Well I only maintained my faith because I didn't question it. In fact it was against the teachings to question god. It is always to be held that "god exists" and that the religion is correct before considering anything else. I find that I cannot imagine having a true skeptical view of religion and a purpousful reflection on their beliefs can end in someone retaining their theisitc beliefs at least to the degree in which they cannot be secular in their day to day life.

Have you truely went through and questioned your beliefs to the very very core? Have you asked the big questions like "why do I believe what I do?", "What makes my faith different than any other?", "Are they all correct?", "Are they all ...wrong?".

If so and you have come out still faithful than more power to you. I cannot be.


Though the fact that they can use their tool to harm others makes religion "harmful". The fact that we have laws prohibiting homosexuals from being able to marry whom they love is something I blame on religion. Its a human concept and its a hateful human concept in this reguard. Same with the concoms in Africa. There are countless other examples but It gets tideous to get into.

 

[Thana]

Well I only maintained my faith because I didn't question it. In fact it was against the teachings to question god. It is always to be held that "god exists" and that the religion is correct before considering anything else. I find that I cannot imagine having a true skeptical view of religion and a purpousful reflection on their beliefs can end in someone retaining their theisitc beliefs at least to the degree in which they cannot be secular in their day to day life.

Have you truely went through and questioned your beliefs to the very very core? Have you asked the big questions like "why do I believe what I do?", "What makes my faith different than any other?", "Are they all correct?", "Are they all ...wrong?".

If so and you have come out still faithful than more power to you. I cannot be.


Though the fact that they can use their tool to harm others makes religion "harmful". The fact that we have laws prohibiting homosexuals from being able to marry whom they love is something I blame on religion. Its a human concept and its a hateful human concept in this reguard. Same with the concoms in Africa. There are countless other examples but It gets tideous to get into.

I understand your view, But it's not religion's fault, It's people's fault.
People who use religion for their own ends, One cannot blame an object just because you walk into it. You cannot blame religion for how people use it.

And yes, I've asked myself those questions and come away from it with my faith intact.

And I am sad, That you found no reason to continue being a Thiest, But I hope that you are doing well regardless.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I understand your view, But it's not religion's fault, It's people's fault.
People who use religion for their own ends, One cannot blame an object just because you walk into it. You cannot blame religion for how people use it.

And yes, I've asked myself those questions and come away from it with my faith intact.

And I am sad, That you found no reason to continue being a Thiest, But I hope that you are doing well regardless.

Do you feel that Nazism should be fought? What about Racism? Both are simply ideologies that are utilized by people? I don't hold religion (most of the time) as quite as bad as either of those but I think you get why I cannot simply accept religion as a benign passive tool. If someone uses a gun to shoot someone else I feel that person looses their entitlement to a gun.


Well don't be sad. I have never been happier and I"m doing exceedingly well. Thank you for your sentiements. I think I should add that I don't have any ill intent towards theists in general. There are some theists that I find deplorable however that is for alternative reasons and I would hold atheists, agnostics, ignostics, ect all in the same boat as far as bearing them ill or not.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I bear everyone equally ill will; theist, atheist, and everyone in between.

 

[Thana]

Do you feel that Nazism should be fought? What about Racism? Both are simply ideologies that are utilized by people? I don't hold religion (most of the time) as quite as bad as either of those but I think you get why I cannot simply accept religion as a benign passive tool. If someone uses a gun to shoot someone else I feel that person looses their entitlement to a gun.


Well don't be sad. I have never been happier and I"m doing exceedingly well. Thank you for your sentiements. I think I should add that I don't have any ill intent towards theists in general. There are some theists that I find deplorable however that is for alternative reasons and I would hold atheists, agnostics, ignostics, ect all in the same boat as far as bearing them ill or not.

So what is really at fault? The ideologies, Or the people who follow them.
People created these ideals, So isn't it therefore the people you must fight?
People who hate will justify there hate.

I bear everyone equally ill will; theist, atheist, and everyone in between.

That's unfortunate.