Why do Athiests challenge Thiests?

[Iti oj]

They're not inseparable.

I suppose you could replace God with aliens if that is what you mean?

 

[Riverwolf]

I suppose you could replace God with aliens if that is what you mean?

I mean that theism is not absolutely tied to creationism/id, to the point where you absolutely have to be a creationist against evolution if you're a theist. Sure, creationism kinda requires a God of some kind, but belief in Gods doesn't require creationist beliefs:

कॊ ।आद्धा वॆद क*।इह प्रवॊचत् कुत ।आअजाता कुत ।इयं विसृष्टि: ।
अर्वाग्दॆवा ।आस्य विसर्जनॆनाथाकॊ वॆद यत ।आबभूव ॥६॥

But, after all, who knows, and who can say
Whence it all came, and how creation happened?
the gods themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?

इयं विसृष्टिर्यत ।आबभूव यदि वा दधॆ यदि वा न ।
यॊ ।आस्याध्यक्ष: परमॆ व्यॊमन्त्सॊ आंग वॆद यदि वा न वॆद ॥७॥

Whence all creation had its origin,
he, whether he fashioned it or whether he did not,
he, who surveys it all from highest heaven,
he knows - or maybe even he does not know.

 

[Iti oj]

I mean that theism is not absolutely tied to creationism/id, to the point where you absolutely have to be a creationist against evolution if you're a theist. Sure, creationism kinda requires a God of some kind, but belief in Gods doesn't require creationist beliefs:

कॊ ।आद्धा वॆद क*।इह प्रवॊचत् कुत ।आअजाता कुत ।इयं विसृष्टि: ।
अर्वाग्दॆवा ।आस्य विसर्जनॆनाथाकॊ वॆद यत ।आबभूव ॥६॥

But, after all, who knows, and who can say
Whence it all came, and how creation happened?
the gods themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?

इयं विसृष्टिर्यत ।आबभूव यदि वा दधॆ यदि वा न ।
यॊ ।आस्याध्यक्ष: परमॆ व्यॊमन्त्सॊ आंग वॆद यदि वा न वॆद ॥७॥

Whence all creation had its origin,
he, whether he fashioned it or whether he did not,
he, who surveys it all from highest heaven,
he knows - or maybe even he does not know.

I never said you have to be a creationist if you are a theist. How ever, barring aliens, I would say you have to be a theist to be a creationist.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

I mean that theism is not absolutely tied to creationism/id, to the point where you absolutely have to be a creationist against evolution if you're a theist. Sure, creationism kinda requires a God of some kind, but belief in Gods doesn't require creationist beliefs:

कॊ ।आद्धा वॆद क*।इह प्रवॊचत् कुत ।आअजाता कुत ।इयं विसृष्टि: ।
अर्वाग्दॆवा ।आस्य विसर्जनॆनाथाकॊ वॆद यत ।आबभूव ॥६॥

But, after all, who knows, and who can say
Whence it all came, and how creation happened?
the gods themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?

इयं विसृष्टिर्यत ।आबभूव यदि वा दधॆ यदि वा न ।
यॊ ।आस्याध्यक्ष: परमॆ व्यॊमन्त्सॊ आंग वॆद यदि वा न वॆद ॥७॥

Whence all creation had its origin,
he, whether he fashioned it or whether he did not,
he, who surveys it all from highest heaven,
he knows - or maybe even he does not know.

And this is why some theological traditions and philosophies are less of a barrier to knowledge than others and as such, are less likely to be considered negative.

Were all theists as open as this indicates, then there would be far less inclination to 'challenge theists'

 

[Riverwolf]

I never said you have to be a creationist if you are a theist.

You were, however, implying it, and that is what I understood you to be saying based on the context of the comment.

How ever, barring aliens, I would say you have to be a theist to be a creationist.

Obviously.

 

[Iti oj]

^and this is why some theological traditions and philosophies are less of a barrier to knowledge than others and as such, are less likely to be considered negative.

I think that is an important distinction. Certain beliefs will garner more attacks then others.

 

[Riverwolf]

And this is why some theological traditions and philosophies are less of a barrier to knowledge than others and as such, are less likely to be considered negative.

Were all theists as open as this indicates, then there would be far less inclination to 'challenge theists'

I love the Nasadiya. ^_^

 

[hexler]

To give some examples in which books one can find wisdom:
Khalil Gibran The Prophet
Richard Bach Johnathan Seagull
J. Rumi Sufi Poetry
R. Moss Illusion of Seperatedness
And, of course, Bahá’í books.

 

[Iti oj]

You were, however, implying it, and that is what I understood you to be saying based on the context of the comment.



Obviously.

I'm sorry I was not clearer then.

 

[Riverwolf]

To give some examples in which books one can find wisdom:
Khalil Gibran The Prophet
Richard Bach Johnathan Seagull
J. Rumi Sufi Poetry
R. Moss Illusion of Seperatedness
And, of course, Bahá’í books.

A list of all the books wherein wisdom can be found is a futile effort; the list would be the length of an entire massive book.

I've not read any of those works (though I've read the first bits of the Kitab-i-Aqdas), but I've read plenty of wisdom.

 

[Iti oj]

also location matters too. I live in America so I have more reason to attack Christianity then any other faith. An atheist in the middle east would have more reason to attack Islam.

 

[Thana]

also location matters too. I live in America so I have more reason to attack Christianity then any other faith. An atheist in the middle east would have more reason to attack Islam.

How did you manage to come to that conclusion.

 

[LuisDantas]

If Einstein never challenged Newtonian physics, we wouldn't have special relativity, and thus probably no space program whatsoever.

I, personally, have no problem having my polytheism challenged by atheists or monotheists. It keeps my mind sharp.

I don't mind challenges to my atheism. I do however mind some common assumptions and dogmas that are sometimes thrown in my general direction.

I'm only human. To see people claim not to be judgmental and to be following the faith of love while also saying almost in the same breath that I must adopt their beliefs to be "saved" is maddening.

It is perhaps a moral duty for me to point out the serious contradiction.

 

[Iti oj]

How did you manage to come to that conclusion.

Christianity is the biggest religion in America. America is also filled with constant political battles with some Christians trying to shove their faith where it does not belong. In science, law, and schools, it is a threat to a secular society.

In the middle east the biggest threat is Islam. Of course that should be clear considering the state of the theocracies, shira law and all that.

 

[LuisDantas]

Those rules/laws were not for God, They were for us. A guide through life, if you will. If you don't have sex before marriage, You're not going to get pregnant/catch an STD.
If you don't steal, You won't get caught and punished.
If you love one another, You wont want to hurt one another.
And so on.

See my view is, I see everything you see, But with the addon of God and his beauty.
But you think I'm blind to everything except God.

Trouble is, we are neither duty-bound nor in many cases even truly capable of believing in God. At least not in a healthy way.

Which, in and of itself, should be evidence aplenty that belief is not something to be pursued. If God exists and is even moderately sane and reasonable by human standards, he certainly does not approve of theistic proselitism.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Also, Something else I'd like to add to my initial question.

If God is real,
And I die, I'll go to heaven because of my faith (over-simplifying but you get the point)

If God is not real,
And I die, I'll just be dead.

If God is real and an Athiest dies, They'll go to hell.
If God is not real and an Athiest dies, nothing will happen.

Explain an Athiest's logic, As to why they think it's better to have no faith.

I like Marcus Aurelius' response to this kind of thinking:

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

 

[LuisDantas]

Also, Something else I'd like to add to my initial question.

If God is real,
And I die, I'll go to heaven because of my faith (over-simplifying but you get the point)

If God is not real,
And I die, I'll just be dead.

If God is real and an Athiest dies, They'll go to hell.
If God is not real and an Athiest dies, nothing will happen.

Explain an Athiest's logic, As to why they think it's better to have no faith.

A variation of Pascal's Wager then?

Do you think God would (or should) respect the pretense of faith out of fear?

And do you think such a God that would is worth the trouble in the first place?

If God is that vain, silly or simply defective, then why should I bother with him at all?

 

[Thana]

Christianity is the biggest religion in America. America is also filled with constant political battles with some Christians trying to shove their faith where it does not belong. In science, law, and schools, it is a threat to a secular society.

In the middle east the biggest threat is Islam. Of course that should be clear considering the state of the theocracies, shira law and all that.

So you see religion as a threat to society?
Why?
What made you come to this conclusion?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Da fuq?
How did you manage to come to that conclusion.

Based on the level of impact of those theological claims on the locale in question (i.e. certain forms of christianity within america and different forms of islam within the middle east; each having significant input into the local sociopolitical landscape); I would however point out that an atheist in the middle east is probably a little more discrete in their discussion of theology than an atheist in america.

I'm only human. To see people claim not to be judgmental and to be following the faith of love while also saying almost in the same breath that I must adopt their beliefs to be "saved" is maddening.

I used to think the same way - until I realised that it was merely their comprehension of the supernatural, i.e. they have to 'save' you because they think their god will punish you or the system that god has created will visit suffering on you. Rather than this being something you should consider as contradictory, or being offended that they are judging you - it is rather that they think their god is cruel (if suffering is caused by gods action) and/or indifferent (if suffering is allowed due to gods inaction), they are judging their god rather than you (even if they are unaware of it). I would be inclined to feel it is incredibly sad just how callous they believe their god is (and continue to worship it).

But that is getting a little far afield from the OP

 

[LuisDantas]

How did you manage to come to that conclusion.

That is a direct consequence of demographic realities. We defend ourselves from that what is more likely to attack us.