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Why do Christians accuse other religions of believing in false prophets?

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
I've found it:

Arianism312AlexandriaChrist was created, hence not eternal, and therefore inferior to Father. Jesus just like other creatures of God (i.e. men) but superior (i.e. a Prophet).

You guys really big on Arius huh? Well I hate to crash the party but this website ARIUS – The Trinity Controversy in the Church is completely wrong. Arianism confirms Jesus as a created divine being based on the Johannine prologue.

I guess Muslims just want something to confirm some Christians believed Jesus was just a prophet. I'm sorry, but it doesn't exist.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
I don't think you know what Arianism is, but you know what you want it to be.
That is a fair comment. :)

I've literally quoted an Arian bishop. It's very convenient that all the 'pure' Arian material is now gone.
Isn't it just .. just like Origen's original works, and oh so much more.

Arians believe in a divine Jesus and you're just wrong here because of your Islamic bias.
..depends what you mean by divine .. if Jesus is not G-d, and there IS only one G-d,
then what does it really mean?

..the Son of God did not always exist but was begotten/made before "time" by God the Father; therefore, Jesus was not coeternal with God the Father, and the difference that Arius believed the Son to be "God" only in name
Arianism - Wikipedia


In any case, I am NOT claiming that Arians are right in every detail of their belief..
What I AM claiming, is that such a belief did not start with Arius.

There were many beliefs but they were pronounced heretical, including Arian, but Trinitarian belief was enforced by political means .. and the belief evolved over time, in a series of ecumenical councils.

The Arians don't see themselves as polytheists either.
OK .. so Jesus was not "a god" or G-d then .. which is what I said.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus repeatedly calls himself 'I am' (this doesn't always comes through in English), which is God's name.

Immediately he made the disciples get into the boat and go before him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowds. And after he had dismissed the crowds, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone, but the boat by this time was a long way from the land, beaten by the waves, for the wind was against them. And in the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. But when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, “It is a ghost!” and they cried out in fear. But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid.”

'It is I' here in Greek is 'ego eimi' - 'I am'. Jesus says this whilst doing something God is known for - having power over water, which represents the powers of chaos in many ancient myths. All through the Tanakh we see God claiming power over water, subduing the forces of chaos etc. This is what this passage is about and there are many like it.


And see,

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”


As well as,

And they were filled with great fear and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?”

Prophets do not control these forces, but God does it for them; here we see Jesus doing it of his own accord.


And the Sanhedrin wants to put him to death for blasphemy,

“Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?” But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” And the high priest tore his garments and said, “What further witnesses do we need? You have heard his blasphemy. What is your decision?” And they all condemned him as deserving death.


And,

And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his clothes became radiant, intensely white, as no one on earth could bleach them. And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus. And Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” For he did not know what to say, for they were terrified. And a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is my beloved Son; listen to him.” And suddenly, looking around, they no longer saw anyone with them but Jesus only.


Also this is John talking of Jesus,

"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

What prophet does this?


And,

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Does anyone prophesise in the name of another prophet? Do prophets have the knowledge of who will go to Heaven, to reject them therefrom?


Here Jesus says,

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”


I know you aren't going to be convinced by these things, but the authors are making theological Tanakh based arguments here about Jesus' divinity, whether you believe this was added later or whatever you may believe. Some argue that Mark, for example, has an adoptionist theology, but this is again making Jesus God by another route. People are worshipping Jesus from the 1st century, so you'd have to make a very strong case that this is a later addition when it's attested even earlier than the virgin birth (which we don't find in Paul's letters, albeit that doesn't mean he didn't believe it, it's just not attested).
I believe that Jesus was a prophet, but Jesus was more than prophet. Jesus was a Manifestation of God.

1 Timothy 3-16 God manifest in the flesh

KJV And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


I believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, which means that Jesus perfectly manifested the attributes of God and perfectly represented God's will.
The only thing I disagree with Christians on is that I don't believe that the Essence of God became flesh, since I do not believe that the Essence of God can become flesh. As the Bible says, God is Spirit.

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..

One can argue that Bahá'u'lláh is asserting that epistemologically the Manifestations are God, for they are the perfect embodiment of all we can know about God; but ontologically they are not God, for they are not identical with God's essence. Perhaps this is the meaning of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John: 'If you had known me, you would have known my Father also' (John 14:7) and 'he who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9)…..

The New Testament, similarly, contains statements where Jesus describes Himself as God, and others where He makes a distinction between Himself and God. For example, 'I and the Father are One (John 10:30); and 'the Father is in me, and I am in the Father (John 1038); but on the other hand, 'the Father is greater than I (John 14:28); and 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19). These statements do not contradict, but are complementary if one assumes they assert an epistemological oneness with God, but an ontological separateness from the Unknowable Essence.”

Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
He is the Son in the sense that he is the 'only-begotten', but is also God-Himself. Those Christians who don't see Jesus as God are outside the mainstream, denying the earliest Creeds and Councils and I do not count those among Christians for the sake of my arguments; they are fringe groups and heretical sects that do not represent Christianity as understood by the vast majority of those who accept the Nicaean, Apostolic and Athanasian Creeds. If they are outside of those then I disclude them.
I think JWs also view him as son but not god. I think anyway.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The Qur'an states that G-d has no mother and father, and no sons and daughters.
In the Bible, "son of G-d" is used in the OT in the sense of a person very close to G-d .. such as a prophet or saint.

..but Christians take "son of God" in a literal sense, and that is where the confusion arises.

Do you have quotes about the use of "sons of God" for someone who is close to God?
Certainly the leading Jews in Jesus day understood Jesus to be saying that He is literally the Son of God. That is a reason they wanted to kill Him.
Jesus did nothing to rectify their view. If anything He confirmed that view of what He meant.
If the Quran confirms the virgin birth then whom does it say is Jesus father?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The New Testament, similarly, contains statements where Jesus describes Himself as God, and others where He makes a distinction between Himself and God. For example, 'I and the Father are One (John 10:30); and 'the Father is in me, and I am in the Father (John 1038); but on the other hand, 'the Father is greater than I (John 14:28); and 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19). These statements do not contradict, but are complementary if one assumes they assert an epistemological oneness with God, but an ontological separateness from the Unknowable Essence.”

Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

Why do you think that Jesus is denying that He is good at Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why do you think that Jesus is denying that He is good at Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19?
'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19).

I don't think Jesus is saying He is not good. I think Jesus is saying that compared to God He cannot be called good since God is all-good.
This is Jesus in His self-effacing role.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
From Muhammad to Krishna to Buddha and Baha’u’llah, it has been a norm amongst Christians of many denominations to accuse religionists of other religions of believing in satan himself and that all of these Teachers are ‘false Prophets’. Many times I have heard this said to me and others. Yet nowhere in the Bible does it categorically state by name that any of These Teachers are false. It is an interpretation by priests and clergy. All of Them taught love just as Christ did.

To be fair, I know of excellent Christians and priests who respect other religions and Prophets and they, I believe, are true Christians who practice love and tolerance towards all.

As a Christian, what do you believe about Muhammad or Buddha or Krishna and Baha’u’llah? Do you believe the different religions should mix with one another or shun each other? I once invited some Christians who knocked on my door to say some prayers together for humanity but they told me that their elders forbid them to do that because they could get ‘spiritually infected’! If Christ taught to love even ones enemy then this attitude towards other religions doesn’t sound right. What do you think?
Basically, if all these prophets are preaching contradictory things, than some (or all) would have to be wrong. Thus "false prophets"
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
@loverofhumanity
Take the issue of who Jesus is. Judaism teaches that he is an insignificant normal human being who tried to be the messiah and failed. Islam teaches he is a prophet and the messiah, but not God. Christianity teaches that he is God himself. Obviously they cannot all be correct since they are contradicting each other. Something cannot be X and Not-X at the same time.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19).

I don't think Jesus is saying He is not good. I think Jesus is saying that compared to God He cannot be called good since God is all-good.
This is Jesus in His self-effacing role.

This is Jesus leaving us a clue that He is YHWH since we know the He is good and is in fact exactly like His Father.
So if only God is good and Jesus is good, what, logically, does that say about Jesus?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Do you have quotes about the use of "sons of God" for someone who is close to God?
Are you unaware of it?

The term "son of God" is used in the Hebrew Bible as another way to refer to humans who have a special relationship with God. In Exodus, the nation of Israel is called God's firstborn son. Solomon is also called "son of God". Angels, just and pious men, and the kings of Israel are all called "sons of God."
Son_of_God - Wikipedia

Certainly the leading Jews in Jesus day understood Jesus to be saying that He is literally the Son of God. That is a reason they wanted to kill Him.
It's certain in YOUR view/interpretation..

If the Quran confirms the virgin birth then whom does it say is Jesus father?
Jesus did not have an earthly Father .. it was a miracle.
Did Adam have an earthly Father, and is he also G-d?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Like Christians agreeing with each other? Or the Abrahamic religions unifying? Like religious texts making rational sense? These would be a surprise.
Like who will "get into heaven" and that sort of thing.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Like who will "get into heaven" and that sort of thing.
Yeah, I find it funny and odd that Christians think anyone but themselves are going to hell, and they are no doubt bound for heaven. We even see Christians condemn each other to hell because they don;t have the right "truth", as if they are God themselves. It sounds like the sort of over-zealous blindness that would get a lost soul in big trouble with a God that lacks compassion.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Take the issue of who Jesus is. Judaism teaches that he is an insignificant normal human being who tried to be the messiah and failed. Islam teaches he is a prophet and the messiah, but not God. Christianity teaches that he is God himself. Obviously they cannot all be correct since they are contradicting each other. Something cannot be X and Not-X at the same time.
Never mind what the religious followers say. Examine the evidence yourself who Jesus was, and your take on what Jesus said about Himself, and what the Qur'an said about Jesus. I have no problem myself reconciling what Jesus said about Himself, and what the Qur'an said about Jesus. What the Jews think is not based on anything I consider authoritative, just what what some religious leaders have said.

You have to do some investigating and pondering justly before you can make a judgment on this.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Never mind what the religious followers say. Examine the evidence yourself who Jesus was, and your take on what Jesus said about Himself, and what the Qur'an said about Jesus. I have no problem myself reconciling what Jesus said about Himself, and what the Qur'an said about Jesus. What the Jews think is not based on anything I consider authoritative, just what what some religious leaders have said.

You have to do some investigating and pondering justly before you can make a judgment on this.
I'm in my sixties and I've spent most of my life studying the religions of the world. I have studied the New Testament and church history, so I have certainly done my due diligence. It is probably not a good idea for you to assume someone is uneducated in a subject simply because they disagree with you.

The problem with examining what Jesus said about himself is that we don't really know what Jesus said. Jesus never wrote anything, nor are there any eyewitness accounts. All we have are collections of various legends about him -- far from reliable. I don't think Jesus said half of the things attributed to him.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This is Jesus leaving us a clue that He is YHWH since we know the He is good and is in fact exactly like His Father.
So if only God is good and Jesus is good, what, logically, does that say about Jesus?
Jesus was a Manifestation of God in the flesh, a perfect mirrror image of what we can know about God, but Jesus was not God in the flesh, since God is Spirit.

'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19).

In those verses Jesus is comparing Himself to God and differentiating Himself from God, so that alone tells us that Jesus is not God.
Do you understand the point I am making?

"No one is good but God alone" means that nobody is as good as God. It does not mean that nobody is good. Lots of people are good.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Never mind what the religious followers say. Examine the evidence yourself who Jesus was, and your take on what Jesus said about Himself, and what the Qur'an said about Jesus. I have no problem myself reconciling what Jesus said about Himself, and what the Qur'an said about Jesus. What the Jews think is not based on anything I consider authoritative, just what what some religious leaders have said.

You have to do some investigating and pondering justly before you can make a judgment on this.
Did the young Jesus make clay birds and made the come to life?

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is a biographical gospel about the childhood of Jesus, believed to date at the latest to the second century. The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is generally considered to be Gnostic in origin... One of the episodes involves Jesus making clay birds, which he then proceeds to bring to life, an act also attributed to Jesus in Quran 5:110

Did Mary give birth to Jesus under a palm tree?

When it comes to the Nativity, however, the Quran differs from the New Testament. Mary, the Muslim text says, “withdrew to a distant place.” This seems to be in line with the Protevangelium of James.​
But the Muslim text goes on to describe a Nativity scene that isn’t found in the Protevangelium. In the Quran’s telling of the story, in the “distant place,” the pains of labor drove Mary to “the trunk of a date-palm.” A miraculous voice told her: “Do not grieve! Your Lord has placed a small stream at your feet.” Mary is told to eat from the dates of the palm tree, drink from the water and trust in God.​
For centuries, Western scholars wondered where the Quranic story of Mary giving birth under a palm tree came from. Some pointed out that another apocryphal document, “The Infancy Gospel of Matthew,” also depicts Mary eating from a palm tree and drinking from a miraculous spring. There, however, the incident takes place not during the birth of Jesus but years later.​
Since the clay bird story and Mary giving birth under a palm tree are found in the Quran, do Baha'is believe those stories to be true?
 
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