Why Do Christians Feel The Need To Bother People?

[F1fan]

But you glossed over this part: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...".

Again, we have no official religion, and frankly I'm glad about that as theocracies generally don't have a very good track record.

This illustrates the non-rational, selective, and erroneous approach of religious thought: anything goes. This is how Christianity evolved into over 40,000 different interpretations and sects.

And if we were a truly "Christian country", why in the world would we ever have elected Trump as his words and behavior in general are the polar opposite of Christ's. And if you think for one minute that this is just hyperbole on my part, reread the Sermon On the Mount in Matthew and compare that to any of Trump's rally speeches in terms of general tone and how people are supposed to be treated.

Christian extremism has evolved to be anti-Christs, and the leaders in this angry and immoral movement have found it appeals to many people as much as a disgusting person like Trump. It makes total sense that a corrupt liar would appeal to evangelical Christians. That theology has become a corrupt lie, from creationism to theocratic politics.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This illustrates the non-rational, selective, and erroneous approach of religious thought: anything goes. This is how Christianity evolved into over 40,000 different interpretations and sects.

..and that illustrates how people like to exagerrate.
There are NOT 400,000 different interpretations.
There are many, yes.

..yet strangely enough they all have something in common.
The belief that Jesus is part of a Divine plan.

 

[BilliardsBall]

There have been claims and arguments by Christians over these ideas, and none are accepted as being credible.


It's not skepticism, facts are such that the Noah flood did not happen. To claim otherwise is to ignore facts, and that is not rational. The story is impossible to interpret literally. Bible literalists cannot overcome the facts. I don't know why you all keep trying.

Why do you say absolutes like "There have been claims and arguments . . . none are accepted as being credible." I ask because as a frequent apologist, I assure you I've read 10-20 times at a minimum as many articles, websites and position papers as you on the issues.

Besides absolutes like "none" and "all", how about addressing what I wrote?

" . . . the Jewish people would retain their identity and their language for thousands of years before receiving their land in a single day, surrounded by enemies who would attack continually until Christ's return--but never defeat or displace them--some of the DOZENS of prophecies Israel has fulfilled since 1948!"

Can you refute anything I've stated here in my quote? Did not the Jewish people retain their racial and cultural identity through 2,500 years of diaspora? Aren't they still, 70 years on, surrounded by enemies who attack but cannot displace them?

 

[F1fan]

..and that illustrates how people like to exagerrate.
There are NOT 400,000 different interpretations.
There are many, yes.

Correct, there aren't 400,000. The number is hard to calculate, as I have heard as many as over 50,000 sects exist under Christianity. As it is it's a religion of confusion and anything goes. You can be a bleeding heart liberal or belong to the KKK and think Trump won in 2020.

..yet strangely enough they all have something in common.
The belief that Jesus is part of a Divine plan.

Not all Christians believe this. It's notable that many Christians give up on faith when they face serious life trauma, or just lack faith that the ideas are true.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No. The Bible does not contain "thousands of prophecies". What it has are verses where Christians after the fact said "Hey, this could be referring to Jesus if you look at it the right way". Those are not prophecies. That is cheating after the fact. A well know one is the supposed "prophecy" of Jesus' birth in Isaiah. When read in context it is not about Jesus at all.

Interesting, of the thousands of prophecies you've chosen perhaps the most contentious one--there was a three-day conference held just on the Hebrew words almah and betumah, even though of course in that culture, "young women" who were unwed were always assumed to be virgins, down to looking at the bedsheets . . . !

I'm sure neither of us want to debate the specifics that are more clear, for example, "little Bethlehem, smallest of Judah's tribal clans, out of you will come one whose origins are ancient, who is ETERNAL". Should I adapt to that statement what you wrote?

"Hey, this could be referring to Jesus if you look at it the right way". Those are not prophecies.

Let's see, a person who is ETERNAL will be born in BETHLEHEM. You've not really ever studied the prophecies, would be my likely conclusion!

 

[F1fan]

Why do you say absolutes like "There have been claims and arguments . . . none are accepted as being credible." I ask because as a frequent apologist, I assure you I've read 10-20 times at a minimum as many articles, websites and position papers as you on the issues.

I'm not stating an absolute, I'm stating facts. More tricky words and meanings you are using here, typical of theists trying to massage a misleading conclusion.

I have been debating religion since 1996 and thus far I have seen nothing definitive in religious arguments. Other critics point out flaws in these arguments. Every one has a fatal flaw of assuming a supernatural exists, and can't show any evidence. The arguments are flawed because they use language to force a God into existence. This is just playing with words and meanings in a creative way. It is not a presentation of facts and a coherent explanation of the facts.

Besides absolutes like "none" and "all", how about addressing what I wrote?

" . . . the Jewish people would retain their identity and their language for thousands of years before receiving their land in a single day, surrounded by enemies who would attack continually until Christ's return--but never defeat or displace them--some of the DOZENS of prophecies Israel has fulfilled since 1948!"

Can you refute anything I've stated here in my quote? Did not the Jewish people retain their racial and cultural identity through 2,500 years of diaspora? Aren't they still, 70 years on, surrounded by enemies who attack but cannot displace them?

Your beliefs are not conclusive, plus they are selective. Jews survived and traveled the world and settled everywhere over the millennia. How could they all be hunted down and killed? The Nazis did their best, but there were too many Jews all over the world. So how is it magic that they survived? If there was divine magic Hitler would never have survived the trenches of France in 1916. He survived two close calls. He survived 44 assassination attempts. If you want to interpret anything it looks like God was protecting Hitler. Do you add that to your calculations? Of course you don't, it's confusing and suggests the world has no divine guidance.

It's because these prophesies are vague and questionable. Even the Jews disagree with you about Jesus. Ouch. But you want to use them as an example of how Christians are correct?

The actual events of history are interpreted in a way that make the Bible seem like it made predictions. This is all (and I mean all because there are no examples of direct and unambiguous predictions) quite liberal and generous interpretations of the Bible, and applied to real world events. Look how many times the Rapture has been predicted. Absurd.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Interesting, of the thousands of prophecies you've chosen perhaps the most contentious one--there was a three-day conference held just on the Hebrew words almah and betumah, even though of course in that culture, "young women" who were unwed were always assumed to be virgins, down to looking at the bedsheets . . . !

I'm sure neither of us want to debate the specifics that are more clear, for example, "little Bethlehem, smallest of Judah's tribal clans, out of you will come one whose origins are ancient, who is ETERNAL". Should I adapt to that statement what you wrote?

"Hey, this could be referring to Jesus if you look at it the right way". Those are not prophecies.

Let's see, a person who is ETERNAL will be born in BETHLEHEM. You've not really ever studied the prophecies, would be my likely conclusion!

Read the whole thing. Do not cherry pick., It is not about Jesus. It is in the present tense. It describes someone who did things that Jesus did not accomplish.;

 

[Brian2]

The Christian help includes mass murders in various continents, forced removal of children from their parents. At least Hinduism did not do that.
And to me as an atheist, it is just replacement of one lie with another.

So because Christians have not followed the teachings of Jesus therefore the teachings of Jesus are wrong.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So because Christians have not followed the teachings of Jesus therefore the teachings of Jesus are wrong.

I did not find any reason to accept the existence of God, and Jesus too, gave me no proof. He was just repeating an old story.

 

[metis]

This illustrates the non-rational, selective, and erroneous approach of religious thought: anything goes. This is how Christianity evolved into over 40,000 different interpretations and sects.

But that can and has happened in irreligious thought as well.

In this respect, I have quite a lot of respect for the "peace churches" [Mennonite, Amish, etc.]. With many of the others, it's best to follow the concept of "Do as they teach but not as they do".

Christianity is supposed to be primarily based on love and compassion for all with a disdain of accumulating wealth and power, but all so many "elevate[d] the man and forgot his message" [Gandhi]. Unfortunately, we also see this being played out today with so many on the "religious right" who have supported politicians that endorse the polar opposite of what Jesus taught.

 

[F1fan]

But that can and has happened in irreligious thought as well.

In this respect, I have quite a lot of respect for the "peace churches" [Mennonite, Amish, etc.]. With many of the others, it's best to follow the concept of "Do as they teach but not as they do".

Christianity is supposed to be primarily based on love and compassion for all with a disdain of accumulating wealth and power, but all so many "elevate[d] the man and forgot his message" [Gandhi]. Unfortunately, we also see this being played out today with so many on the "religious right" who have supported politicians that endorse the polar opposite of what Jesus taught.

I suspect your point here is that whatever ideology we adopt or create for ourselves, whether religious or not, should help us reach our capacity and potential as human beings. The dilemma is how this approach itself requires a pretty savvy and enlightened mind to begin with. It is so easy for humans to be fearful and their fears be manipulated by leaders or an ideology that exploits them for some ends.

I remember in 2012 where many citizens wondered where these angry Tea party came from, the racists. Then in 2016 many wondered where all these MAGAs came from, enough to support Trump, a corrupt and divisive character. They hitched their wagons to a person and ideology that exposes a weakness in human nature, and that demands no doubt, introspection, empathy, wisdom, or duty to society and law.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Jesus made a whip.
Jesus was not at a Gay pride rally or abortion clinic, He was at the Temple of God His Father and it had been allowed to become a den of thieves.
Jesus was doing the job that the Jewish priests etc should have done.
Notice it does not say that Jesus whipped anyone.

He could have tried working with the authorities instead of vandalism and assault.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

i've got a whip too....its for my horse.

I’ve ridden horses. I would rather bond with them than whip them. There is a reason my father’s pony threw him and not me.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

It became anti-Christian when it is taught to our children it is a marriage

It is a marriage. All you can honestly teach your kid is that your religion doesn’t like it.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I just heard a sigh of relief from your husband

Pair this with the golden rule and Jesus is into some stuff.

 

[metis]

I suspect your point here is that whatever ideology we adopt or create for ourselves, whether religious or not, should help us reach our capacity and potential as human beings. The dilemma is how this approach itself requires a pretty savvy and enlightened mind to begin with. It is so easy for humans to be fearful and their fears be manipulated by leaders or an ideology that exploits them for some ends.

I agree with all of the above.

 

[Brian2]

I did not find any reason to accept the existence of God, and Jesus too, gave me no proof. He was just repeating an old story.

That does not answer my remark. Even if you are an atheist and do not believe in Jesus that does not mean that the teachings of Jesus are wrong just because Christians have failed to follow them.

 

[Brian2]

He could have tried working with the authorities instead of vandalism and assault.

He could, but He didn't.
As the Christ from God He came to judge what was being done amongst God's people and what He did was a better statement of judgement from someone with authority from God.
Jesus taught with authority and judged with authority and one question the temple authorities had for Him was "by what authority do you do these things?"

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus made a whip.
Jesus was not at a Gay pride rally or abortion clinic, He was at the Temple of God His Father and it had been allowed to become a den of thieves.
Jesus was doing the job that the Jewish priests etc should have done.
Notice it does not say that Jesus whipped anyone.

It says he drove them out with a whip. That means he used it.

 

[Kenny]

It is a marriage. All you can honestly teach your kid is that your religion doesn’t like it.

Not really. In our understanding, there is spiritual as well as natural reasons for marriage between a man and a woman