Why do people deny or have various doubts about God?

[Sonofason]

Your viewpoint is very deist yet you still keep to Christianity? May I ask why you claim to be a "christian" if you believe god cannot be defined?

I am not sure I understand your question. Basically if the cause of things are nature but god created the laws of nature then god is the ultimate cause of everything? Is that what you are getting at?

A return question is "what if god is everything but nothing more? would you still call it god?"

The Bible says that God created everything. Therefore I do not usually consider that God is everything, although He may have poured out of Himself to create everything, as there may have been nothing but God before everything existed. Everything somehow may have came out of Him. So surely, I cannot discount the notion that everything is God. But even if everything is God, God is not just everything. He is much much more than everything, in my most humble opinion.

But then again, I am not sure that God hasn't had matter at his disposal for all eternity. That is quite possible. I am still often groping in the dark with scriptural matters. For example, Genesis says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth"

To create can mean "to make or produce ". Well, I can make or produce a painting if the resources for making a painting are available to me. But in my mind creation is more than that. Another definition, which seems to suit my own personal idea of creating is to bring into existence. But then again, I believe I can bring a painting into existence with existing materials as well.

So, I don't have the answers. I am searching. I believe in God because I believe that I have experienced God. I have read the Bible and I believe it is true. And as a result, I have perceived God. Perceive is not the right word. I felt God, as if He has touched me. I won't really explain it, because I can't. Everyone knows what it's like to be splashed with cold water. But try explaining what that is like to someone who's never experienced any sensation of water at all. You just can't. If you had experienced God, you'd be saying already, "yes, I know what you mean." I have set my heart upon God, and I trust in God's Son, and as a result, I have received in me the promise of Jesus Christ.

He said,
"If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
(John 14:16-17)

I know this Spirit well. He visits with me often. And now I no longer have belief that God exists. I know He does, because He has blessed me with proof, and I am comforted in my faith, just as Jesus promised.

But to your question, "what if god is everything but nothing more? would you still call it god?"

Well, if God were everything, which for all I know He could be, and more, I would still call Him God, because He would still be God.

 

[Sonofason]

The bible was written in Hebrew, the word translated as 'day' in English, was 'YOM'.

YOM does not mean a 24 hr period, it can mean ANY unit of time, it is translated elsewhere in scripture as year, season, era, epoch, forever, ago, day and so on.


The sake goes for the hebrew words for morning (warm, beginning, dawn) and evening.

So the English sentence translated from Hebrew as: "On the evening of the third day'

Could as accurately be translated as: "In the cold of the third reign"..

So then you are agreeing with me. Great.

 

[Amechania]

That would be the difference between man and god in the Abraham's tradition. God creates, man recreates. Hence the idea of man being a created image, a second-hand god.

 

[Bunyip]

So then you are agreeing with me. Great.

That's right mate.

 

[Sonofason]

I would imagine she was exaggerating as a linguistic tool to underline her point in a colorful way.

But what I am curious of is what did you learn in these college science/math courses that led you to believe that these science/math courses were wrong ?

I never tried to suggest that everything I've learned from my studies in the sciences was wrong. But then, I have rarely heard any of my professors try to tell me that anything I've learned somehow ought to shatter my beliefs about God. The word science means knowledge. I'm all in favor of knowledge, especially if it leans on the side of truth. I know God exists, and it is because of God, and the Word of God that I know He exists. Therefore, when I read the scripture, I have to sometimes re-evaluate what I think I know from the knowledge that I have gained in the sight that the scriptures are ALL true. And so far, I haven't been stumped, not once. When you realize that the Word of God is true, everything falls into place.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

The Bible says that God created everything. Therefore I do not usually consider that God is everything, although He may have poured out of Himself to create everything, as there may have been nothing but God before everything existed. Everything somehow may have came out of Him. So surely, I cannot discount the notion that everything is God. But even if everything is God, God is not just everything. He is much much more than everything, in my most humble opinion.

But then again, I am not sure that God hasn't had matter at his disposal for all eternity. That is quite possible. I am still often groping in the dark with scriptural matters. For example, Genesis says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth"

To create can mean "to make or produce ". Well, I can make or produce a painting if the resources for making a painting are available to me. But in my mind creation is more than that. Another definition, which seems to suit my own personal idea of creating is to bring into existence. But then again, I believe I can bring a painting into existence with existing materials as well.

So, I don't have the answers. I am searching. I believe in God because I believe that I have experienced God. I have read the Bible and I believe it is true. And as a result, I have perceived God. Perceive is not the right word. I felt God, as if He has touched me. I won't really explain it, because I can't. Everyone knows what it's like to be splashed with cold water. But try explaining what that is like to someone who's never experienced any sensation of water at all. You just can't. If you had experienced God, you'd be saying already, "yes, I know what you mean." I have set my heart upon God, and I trust in God's Son, and as a result, I have received in me the promise of Jesus Christ.

He said,
"If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
(John 14:16-17)

I know this Spirit well. He visits with me often. And now I no longer have belief that God exists. I know He does, because He has blessed me with proof, and I am comforted in my faith, just as Jesus promised.

But to your question, "what if god is everything but nothing more? would you still call it god?"

Well, if God were everything, which for all I know He could be, and more, I would still call Him God, because He would still be God.

So it still just comes down to faith. I was hoping for a more interesting answer. I still don't get exactly why you choose christianity though I have a feeling it has more to do with the fact that Christianity is the primary religion you were brought up in or at least around. But I suppose that is neither here nor there.

I never tried to suggest that everything I've learned from my studies in the sciences was wrong. But then, I have rarely heard any of my professors try to tell me that anything I've learned somehow ought to shatter my beliefs about God. The word science means knowledge. I'm all in favor of knowledge, especially if it leans on the side of truth. I know God exists, and it is because of God, and the Word of God that I know He exists. Therefore, when I read the scripture, I have to sometimes re-evaluate what I think I know from the knowledge that I have gained in the sight that the scriptures are ALL true. And so far, I haven't been stumped, not once. When you realize that the Word of God is true, everything falls into place.

Do you suggest that evolution, global warming or any other scientific facts are wrong?

I have had the opposite revelations when trying to understand my faith and reality.

 

[Sonofason]

So it still just comes down to faith. I was hoping for a more interesting answer. I still don't get exactly why you choose christianity though I have a feeling it has more to do with the fact that Christianity is the primary religion you were brought up in or at least around. But I suppose that is neither here nor there.


Do you suggest that evolution, global warming or any other scientific facts are wrong?

I have had the opposite revelations when trying to understand my faith and reality.

Everything comes down to faith. Faith is everything. Would you go to work tomorrow if you didn't have faith in your mind that tells you that you are expected to be at work tomorrow? Would you even pour a glass of water if you didn't have faith in the cup's ability to hold the water?

Actually, I became a Christian at about the age of 16. It was at that time when I first experienced God, when God saw me on my knees in tears. I have since studied other religions, mostly the Eastern Religions both in and out of school. And I can say that I saw a great deal of truth in many of those religions, but they did not bring me closer to God. But I see your point, and it may be a valid point. If I had been raised in an Islamic country, perhaps I'd be Islamic. If not, I'd probably be dead by now. No, Islam is not of God, and never will be.

I know a bit about the Theory of Global Warming, and it makes sense. I won't deny it's true, but I've not been completely convinced that it is actually happening. It could be. I'm willing to adhere to regulations in order to reduce my CO2 footprint, but I imagine the vegetation on this planet may feel somewhat slighted by such actions. Plants breath CO2 and produce oxygen. How about we all plant some trees, instead of cutting them all down.

I see the logic behind evolution, and I see that it could be a reality. But I do not see evolution as being in conflict with the Words of the Bible. I've already dealt with that issue. There is no conflict of interest there for me.

 

[Alceste]

Everything comes down to faith. Faith is everything. Would you go to work tomorrow if you didn't have faith in your mind that tells you that you are expected to be at work tomorrow? Would you even pour a glass of water if you didn't have faith in the cup's ability to hold the water?

Actually, I became a Christian at about the age of 16. It was at that time when I first experienced God, when God saw me on my knees in tears. I have since studied other religions, mostly the Eastern Religions both in and out of school. And I can say that I saw a great deal of truth in many of those religions, but they did not bring me closer to God. But I see your point, and it may be a valid point. If I had been raised in an Islamic country, perhaps I'd be Islamic. If not, I'd probably be dead by now. No, Islam is not of God, and never will be.

I know a bit about the Theory of Global Warming, and it makes sense. I won't deny it's true, but I've not been completely convinced that it is actually happening. It could be. I'm willing to adhere to regulations in order to reduce my CO2 footprint, but I imagine the vegetation on this planet may feel somewhat slighted by such actions. Plants breath CO2 and produce oxygen. How about we all plant some trees, instead of cutting them all down.

I see the logic behind evolution, and I see that it could be a reality. But I do not see evolution as being in conflict with the Words of the Bible. I've already dealt with that issue. There is no conflict of interest there for me.

So are you one of the "genesis is metaphorically true" Christians then? Because the world definitely was not created in 6 days, and humans definitely weren't molded out of mud and / or ribs.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Everything comes down to faith. Faith is everything. Would you go to work tomorrow if you didn't have faith in your mind that tells you that you are expected to be at work tomorrow? Would you even pour a glass of water if you didn't have faith in the cup's ability to hold the water?

I take issue with the way people use the terms interchangeably when they do mean different things. Just because one is "faith" based doesn't mean that they are equal. And the term "faith" based on past experiences and measurable evidence is not the same as esoteric experiences from a deity. Just to make that point.

Actually, I became a Christian at about the age of 16. It was at that time when I first experienced God, when God saw me on my knees in tears. I have since studied other religions, mostly the Eastern Religions both in and out of school. And I can say that I saw a great deal of truth in many of those religions, but they did not bring me closer to God. But I see your point, and it may be a valid point. If I had been raised in an Islamic country, perhaps I'd be Islamic. If not, I'd probably be dead by now. No, Islam is not of God, and never will be.

Some could say the same of Christianity but I am like minded with Harris in that there are certain verses in the Bible that neuters some of the extermits and one such verse is in the gospels "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" which is direct instructions to follow the law of the land. There are no such verses in Islam.

I know a bit about the Theory of Global Warming, and it makes sense. I won't deny it's true, but I've not been completely convinced that it is actually happening. It could be. I'm willing to adhere to regulations in order to reduce my CO2 footprint, but I imagine the vegetation on this planet may feel somewhat slighted by such actions. Plants breath CO2 and produce oxygen. How about we all plant some trees, instead of cutting them all down.

I am convinced as are most scientists but I agree that we need to plant more trees. I am actually part of a project if you are interested in hearing more.

I see the logic behind evolution, and I see that it could be a reality. But I do not see evolution as being in conflict with the Words of the Bible. I've already dealt with that issue. There is no conflict of interest there for me.

That is good then.

 

[outhouse]

Faith is everything.

yes faith is dangerous in the wrong hands


fanaticism and fundamentalism IS humanities enemy.

 

[McBell]

"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."
(Genesis 6:1-2)

The KJV version says this:
"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
(Genesis 6:4)

The NIV says it this way:
"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."
(Genesis 6:4)

Remember, it was Moses who wrote this book, not Noah. By Moses' time, the giants (Nephilem) Sons of the "gods" were indeed heroes of old, and men of renown; names like those we find in Greek mythology and other supposed mythologies as well.

It is my guess that if you were to see an angel, and it commanded you to worship him as a god, you would.

You have not linked Zeus to these verses.

Care to provide said link?

 

[McBell]

Thruve



How could that make a difference?

Just think of all the God fearing people in this world who would be out raping, murdering, etc. if it weren't for their fear of divine punishment...

 

[Sonofason]

So are you one of the "genesis is metaphorically true" Christians then? Because the world definitely was not created in 6 days, and humans definitely weren't molded out of mud and / or ribs.

Originally Posted by Sonofason View Post 135
[QUOTEThat depends on how you define the day. I am not so shortsighted. A simple glance at a dictionary will show you.

day:
a period of opportunity or prominence
an era of existence or influence
the interval of light between two successive nights
a time of light
Day - definition of Day by The Free Dictionary

My friend, "God is Light". When God is present, it is as day. When he is not, it is as night. While God is present and creating it is day. When he steps back to see what He has made, it is night.

morning - The first or early part; the beginning
morning - definition of morning by The Free Dictionary

evening - A later period or time
evening - definition of evening by The Free Dictionary

Every time God was present it was day. When He was beginning His work for the day, it was morning. When He was finishing with His work for the day, it was evening. And God saw that it was good. "...And the evening and the morning were the first day." (Genesis 1:5)[/QUOTE]

When someone uses words within the contexts of proper definitions for those words being used, do you consider that a metaphoric understanding?

Not all definitions of the word day mean, nor even imply a 24 hour day. I do not consider myself to be one of the "genesis is metaphorically true" Christians. I just think I am more open minded, and willing to consider alternative ideas with regard to scripture, so long as those ideas adhere to that which is being said. It is too easy to misunderstand a person that is standing directly in front of you speaking, let alone understanding perfectly the words written in another language thousands of years ago.

 

[Alceste]

Originally Posted by Sonofason View Post 135
That depends on how you define the day. I am not so shortsighted. A simple glance at a dictionary will show you.

day:
a period of opportunity or prominence
an era of existence or influence
the interval of light between two successive nights
a time of light
Day - definition of Day by The Free Dictionary

My friend, "God is Light". When God is present, it is as day. When he is not, it is as night. While God is present and creating it is day. When he steps back to see what He has made, it is night.

morning - The first or early part; the beginning
morning - definition of morning by The Free Dictionary

evening - A later period or time
evening - definition of evening by The Free Dictionary

Every time God was present it was day. When He was beginning His work for the day, it was morning. When He was finishing with His work for the day, it was evening. And God saw that it was good. "...And the evening and the morning were the first day." (Genesis 1:5)
When someone uses words within the contexts of proper definitions for those words being used, do you consider that a metaphoric understanding?

Not all definitions of the word day mean, nor even imply a 24 hour day. I do not consider myself to be one of the "genesis is metaphorically true" Christians. I just think I am more open minded, and willing to consider alternative ideas with regard to scripture, so long as those ideas adhere to that which is being said. It is too easy to misunderstand a person that is standing directly in front of you speaking, let alone understanding perfectly the words written in another language thousands of years ago.

Then the order of the "days" is wrong.

 

[LuisDantas]

Just think of all the God fearing people in this world who would be out raping, murdering, etc. if it weren't for their fear of divine punishment...

Out of curiosity, how many do you think there are, and how many of them would be better people if they had never heard of the concept?

 

[Sonofason]

I take issue with the way people use the terms interchangeably when they do mean different things. Just because one is "faith" based doesn't mean that they are equal. And the term "faith" based on past experiences and measurable evidence is not the same as esoteric experiences from a deity. Just to make that point.

So, what you are saying is, you take issue with people having experiences that you yourself have never had, and you take issue with people having experiences that you yourself find difficult to even imagine. I get that. It's got to be somewhat frustrating, especially if you believe that you actually desire to have an experience of God. Sadly, for many, this is one of those issues that requires a leap of faith first, and then the evidence follows. But it is not blind faith one needs. I believe it simply requires small baby step increments of faith. I believe that reason can, and does lead people to the kind of faith building that leads one to experience the presence of God.

Some could say the same of Christianity but I am like minded with Harris in that there are certain verses in the Bible that neuters some of the extermits and one such verse is in the gospels "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" which is direct instructions to follow the law of the land. There are no such verses in Islam.

I agree

I am convinced as are most scientists but I agree that we need to plant more trees. I am actually part of a project if you are interested in hearing more.

Sure, I'm interested.

That is good then.

Yes for me, evolution shows that God is far greater, so much wiser, and infinitely more magnificent than an invisible magician waving his wand to make a man.

 

[Sonofason]

yes faith is dangerous in the wrong hands


fanaticism and fundamentalism IS humanities enemy.

It's what gets you up out of bed every day. If we had not faith, then we all may as well just be dead.

 

[outhouse]

Out of curiosity, how many do you think there are, and how many of them would be better people if they had never heard of the concept?

Excellent point.

Morality is better achieved with education and knowledge, not fear based religions.


And we both know how much religions are known to retard humanities advancements.

 

[LuisDantas]

Excellent point.

Morality is better achieved with education and knowledge, not fear based religions.

So true. Teaching people to behave out of fear is disrespectful to an enormous degree.

And we both know how much religions are known to retard humanities advancements.

I would rather state that fear of God is an awful thing for a religion to have.

 

[outhouse]

I would rather state that fear of God is an awful thing for a religion to have.

Agreed, but we need to learn from past mistakes, not keep repeating them.