Why do trinitarian ideologists say that Jesus Christ is YHWH?

[URAVIP2ME]

Well, strictly, Jesus’ rulership is over the created world. It is not a ‘Heavenly Kingdom’ but rather, the kingdom of earth ‘Ruled FROM Heaven’.
Also, the only place Jesus is called ‘Word of God’ is in the book of Revelation - and this because Jesus is carrying out what God told him to do (He is doing “God’s Word”!)
Indeed, if Trinitarians are to be believed that Jesus is ‘the word of God’ in John 1:1 (which actually does not call anyone ‘the Word OF GOD’ - it only says ‘the word’ ) how many Jesus’ are there?:

• “Every word of God is flawless…” (Proverbs 30:5)

I find Jesus governing over Earth from Heaven with co-rulers - Rev. 20:6; 5:9-10
The Word was with God showing someone else was with God. Pre-humanl heavenly Jesus is that Word (John 1:1 John 1:14 besides Rev. 19:13 )
Jesus as the Word meaning Jesus spoke as God's spokesman - John 12:49-50 ( speak, speak, speak )
Jesus speaks the Word of God ( Scripture as religious truth - John 17:17)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I do not give any real creditability to the King James version.

I do use the KJV as to have a common ground and then where there is a question to compare with the Greek or Hebrew Interlinear.
For one example: some new translations wrongly use the word 'wicked' at Acts 24:15 when the King James uses the word un-just.
In more modern speech we would say un-righteous.
King James is correct in Not saying wicked because the wicked will be: destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22
Resurrection is for the just and unjust, the righteous and the unrighteous. - Acts 24:15

 

[Soapy]

I find Jesus governing over Earth from Heaven with co-rulers - Rev. 20:6; 5:9-10
The Word was with God showing someone else was with God. Pre-humanl heavenly Jesus is that Word (John 1:1 John 1:14 besides Rev. 19:13 )
Jesus as the Word meaning Jesus spoke as God's spokesman - John 12:49-50 ( speak, speak, speak )
Jesus speaks the Word of God ( Scripture as religious truth - John 17:17)

No no no!!!

Why do you say ‘The word was with God’ and claim that ‘The word’ was Jesus with God?

Where are you finding this nonsense?

The verse in John 1:1 does not say what is taught by Trinitarians. ‘Word OF GOD’ is a title given to Jesus in REVELATION. John 1:1 does not say, ‘Word OF GOD’.

There are PLENTY of OTHER PLACES in scriptures where the term ‘THE WORD’ is used… are you going to claim that these meant Jesus Christ?

Of course not!

So what do you say, ‘the word’ means in those verses? The ‘utterances’ of a speaker?

YES!!!

And GOD TAUGHT Jesus what to say and do… and when Jesus said and did what God taught him to say and do, he is DOING GOD’s WORD!

An emissary taught by a king and sent to a disparate people, if he does and says everything the king taught him, IS THE WORD OF THE KING. The emissary NEVER claims that what he says or does s his own words of deeds but rather attributes ALL THINGS to the king ‘Who sent him’.

Do you not see that Jesus completely reflects this attitude.

And, Jesus being SENT, is from the time he was anointed and tested in the wilderness. It is not a ‘sent from Heaven’ - which Jesus never claims he was sent from Heaven.

 

[pearl]

For one example: some new translations wrongly use the word 'wicked' at Acts 24:15

I have it that;
I have the same hope in God as they themselves have that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. NABR

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have it that;
I have the same hope in God as they themselves have that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. NABR

Thank you pearl (Matt.13:46) for your reply. Yes, Acts 24:15 is about both the righteous and unrighteous and Not about the wicked.
Since the ' future tense ' is used that ' there is going to be......' then resurrection would be in the future.
A lot of people think their resurrection happens at the moment of death. (More alive after death than before death )
Yet, Jesus place the resurrection as being in the future at John 6:40,44
To me that 'last day' is Resurrection Day meaning: Jesus' coming 'Millennium-Long Day' of Jesus governing over Earth for a thousand years.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

............................And, Jesus being SENT, is from the time he was anointed and tested in the wilderness. It is not a ‘sent from Heaven’ - which Jesus never claims he was sent from Heaven.

Anointed Jesus even sent forth his apostles.....
To me, Matthew 1:18 B is clear that Joseph was Not the father of un-born Jesus.
The angel tells Mary who her-to-be Son would be at Luke 1:35
Un-born Jesus was already in Mary's womb at the time of Luke 1:26 when Gabriel was sent forth from God ( God in Heaven sent Gabriel )
Sent forth Gabriel speaks to Mary about a Son-to-be at Luke 1:28-32, 35,38
So, ' sent forth ' is in the sense of of both:
* Sending someone forth to do something like anointed baptised Jesus sending forth his apostles to preach.
* Also, in the sense that God sent forth His pre-human heavenly Son to Mary's womb to be born as a human as Adam was.

 

[Soapy]

Anointed Jesus even sent forth his apostles.....
To me, Matthew 1:18 B is clear that Joseph was Not the father of un-born Jesus.
The angel tells Mary who her-to-be Son would be at Luke 1:35
Un-born Jesus was already in Mary's womb at the time of Luke 1:26 when Gabriel was sent forth from God ( God in Heaven sent Gabriel )
Sent forth Gabriel speaks to Mary about a Son-to-be at Luke 1:28-32, 35,38
So, ' sent forth ' is in the sense of of both:
* Sending someone forth to do something like anointed baptised Jesus sending forth his apostles to preach.
* Also, in the sense that God sent forth His pre-human heavenly Son to Mary's womb to be born as a human as Adam was.

There is no argument claim that Joseph was the Father of Jesus… no one who reads the scriptures ever made any such claim so it is pointless to make a claim that you don’t think he was!!!

The Angel Gabriel told Mary that the Holy Spirit would overshadow her and that BECAUSE OF THAT OVERSHADOWING she would conceive a child who would THEREFORE BE HOLY and would be called ‘The Son of God Most High’.

The seed (egg) of Mary was certainly in her - AS ALL WOMEN HAVE - but until it is fertilised it is of no use just as a seed of s plant is of no value until it is fertilised with pollen (plant sperm).

It could be said that general pollen (male sperm) has a weakness but a pure pollen (spirit of God) carries no abnormality of trait, therefore the general pollen carries ‘Sin’ but pure pollen carries no ‘Sin’.

‘Sending forth’ is what God set to Jesus AFTER God anointed him … Consecrated him … for the task he was to perform:

• “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 20:37-38)

Be careful of verses which appear to say that Jesus came ‘from Heaven’ or ‘Came from God’. These are purposely mistranslated by Trinitarians who desire to claim Jesus in a pre-Heaven abode. If they are to be believed that what is to be made of this verse:

• “You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.” (1 John 4:4)
• “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love” (Eph 1:4)

No! Jesus was zealous for the word of God through the Torah and learnt, guided by God, the history and truth of the Israelite tribe. Jesus, being born holy, was resistant to sin even as he was tempted as a growing child and adult. But he did not face ‘the world’ until he went into the desert to be baptised by John the Baptist. It was after this in which Jesus was given POWER AND AUTHORITY to wield that power, that Jesus was SET TO BE TESTED IF HE WOULD MISUSE THAT POWER. These tests (and doubtless many more) are those which are highlighted in the New Testament scriptures.

And, having past the test, God SENT HIM FORTH into the world…

• The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,He began by saying to them,… Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” (Luke 4: 18, 21)

 

[Soapy]

Anointed Jesus even sent forth his apostles.....
To me, Matthew 1:18 B is clear that Joseph was Not the father of un-born Jesus.
The angel tells Mary who her-to-be Son would be at Luke 1:35
Un-born Jesus was already in Mary's womb at the time of Luke 1:26 when Gabriel was sent forth from God ( God in Heaven sent Gabriel )
Sent forth Gabriel speaks to Mary about a Son-to-be at Luke 1:28-32, 35,38
So, ' sent forth ' is in the sense of of both:
* Sending someone forth to do something like anointed baptised Jesus sending forth his apostles to preach.
* Also, in the sense that God sent forth His pre-human heavenly Son to Mary's womb to be born as a human as Adam was.

Can I ask you: Where do you learn your belief from?

It sounds like JW mixed with some other belief that I never heard before.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Can I ask you: Where do you learn your belief from?
It sounds like JW mixed with some other belief that I never heard before.

In post # 166 I used corresponding cross-reference parallel verses along the same line of thought.
Sent forth in two senses:
* Baptised-as-Messiah Jesus ' sent forth ' his apostles .........
* Un-born Jesus was ' sent forth ' from Heaven by his God from his pre-human heavenly spirit life to come to Earth from Heaven.
Jesus after baptism ' sent forth ' his apostes.
God ' sent forth ' pre-human heavenly Jesus to be born on Earth and become Messiah for us starting at his baptism.

God ' sent forth ' His pre-human Son from Heaven to Earth for us to undo the damage Adam brought upon humanity.
Baptised Jesus ' sent forth ' his apostles in the sense of carrying out the work he entrusted to them.
Any thoughts about John 5:37; John 8:18; John 8:23 and John 12:49 _______________

Try www.jw.org

 

[Soapy]

In post # 166 I used corresponding cross-reference parallel verses along the same line of thought.
Sent forth in two senses:
* Baptised-as-Messiah Jesus ' sent forth ' his apostles .........
* Un-born Jesus was ' sent forth ' from Heaven by his God from his pre-human heavenly spirit life to come to Earth from Heaven.
Jesus after baptism ' sent forth ' his apostes.
God ' sent forth ' pre-human heavenly Jesus to be born on Earth and become Messiah for us starting at his baptism.

God ' sent forth ' His pre-human Son from Heaven to Earth for us to undo the damage Adam brought upon humanity.
Baptised Jesus ' sent forth ' his apostles in the sense of carrying out the work he entrusted to them.

Try www.jw.org

Sorry but You are not answering to what I asked you.

You are right that Jesus ‘sent forth’ the disciples after Jesus first taught them…
Just as God ‘sent forth’ Jesus after God first taught him.

But God did not teach Jesus IN HEAVEN because Jesus was not IN HEAVEN before being born from his mother on earth:

• The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free (Luke 4:18)

God filled Jesus with His Holy Spirit and then sent him forth (Jesus’ holy baptism)
God filled the apostles with holy spirit and then Jesus sent them forth (the baptism at Pentecost)

• ‘[Father God] l, Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.’ (John 17:7-8)

What I asked you was to clarify where you obtained your information on Jesus being pre-existent in Heaven. I mean, that’s what I would like you to tell me as I do not find any verse, suggestion, nor truth, in such a subscription.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

............What I asked you was to clarify where you obtained your information on Jesus being pre-existent in Heaven. I mean, that’s what I would like you to tell me as I do not find any verse, suggestion, nor truth, in such a subscription.

Information as found at John 12:49-50 that before coming to Earth Jesus was instructed about what he would teach.
At baptism is when the heavens were opened up to Jesus at that time.
Jesus speaks what he saw with his Father - John 8:28 B; John 8:38
At John 8:42 Jesus says he did Not come of his own initiative but He that sent Jesus.-> Sent from above - John 8:23
I find at John 6:38 that Jesus says he came down from Heaven..........
Where did Jesus say he descended coming down from at John 3:13 _________

 

[Soapy]

Information as found at John 12:49-50 that before coming to Earth Jesus was instructed about what he would teach.
At baptism is when the heavens were opened up to Jesus at that time.
Jesus speaks what he saw with his Father - John 8:28 B; John 8:38
At John 8:42 Jesus says he did Not come of his own initiative but He that sent Jesus.-> Sent from above - John 8:23
I find at John 6:38 that Jesus says he came down from Heaven..........
Where did Jesus say he descended coming down from at John 3:13 _________

I asked you the question to test your understanding of what you are reading in the scriptures and your understanding of where scriptures has been altered to suit trinitarian misconceptions.

For instance, John 3:13 DOES NOT SAY that Jesus came down from Heaven. The true interpretation and saying is:

• ‘No one has ever gone up into Heaven except HE WHO FIRST DESCENDED… the Son of God who is in Heaven’

‘Descended’ pertains to ‘the Grave’. In other words, the only person who has gone into Heaven was Jesus Christ who first DIED and was raised up again.

And, in order to enter the realm of Heaven, one must first be REBORN…

Note, there is no stipulation concerning COMING FROM HEAVEN in order to ENTER (re-enter???!!) Heaven! And Jesus never states that he was ‘GOING BACK’ to Heaven…

I think that because you desire to try to uphold your claim (you still don’t say where you learn your belief from!) that Jesus was pre-existent in Heaven, you fall victim to the trinitarian fallacy that besets the misbelievers.

‘No one has ever entered Heaven who first did not descend into the grave.. except the son of man who is in Heaven:

• “It was just before the Passover Festival. Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.” (John 13:1)

Jesus was not going ‘BACK’ to the God, the Father.

And Jesus LEARNT from God, from his Heavenly Father:

• “And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” (Luke 2:52)

If Jesus had already been taught by God then how was he only now learning wisdom and stature?

Jesus was taught by the Father (John 8:28). This goes with Luke 2:52.

John 8.38… are you seriously saying that these Jews were in the presence of Satan learning from Satan (their Father!). At what time did they learn the ways of Satan, learn wickedness and falsehoods.

I feel you should stop trying to justify your standing from the mistranslations and misconceptions you are bringing about by trying to meld trinitarian belief with JW doctrine … what you will do is cherrypick verses where you see them possible and ignore the mass of truth that is showing you the truth.

Jesus learnt from the Father during his childhood and youth - and remained sinless towards his earthly parents and towards mankind in general.

And then he heard of John the Baptist in the wilderness… the rest is history! And after returning from his anointment and trial in the wilderness, he stood up in the synagogue and read from a certain place in the Torah:

• “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, … Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” (Luke 4:18,21)
• God prophesied: “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.” (Isaiah 42:1)

 

[101G]

For instance, John 3:13 DOES NOT SAY that Jesus came down from Heaven. The true interpretation and saying is:

• ‘No one has ever gone up into Heaven except HE WHO FIRST DESCENDED… the Son of God who is in Heaven’

misquote#1. there is no son of God ever in Heaven, before any DESCENDING or any ASCENDING. son of God has blood, and there is no blood in heaven.

misquote#2. it's son of Man .... who is in Heaven. scripture, John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

the Lord Jesus as Spirit was in Heaven at the same time he was on Earth "SHARED" in flesh. know, and understand the difference between the Son of Man. and the Son of God.

101G.

 

[Soapy]

misquote#1. there is no son of God ever in Heaven, before any DESCENDING or any ASCENDING. son of God has blood, and there is no blood in heaven.

misquote#2. it's son of Man .... who is in Heaven. scripture, John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

the Lord Jesus as Spirit was in Heaven at the same time he was on Earth "SHARED" in flesh. know, and understand the difference between the Son of Man. and the Son of God.

101G.

I have no idea why you need to be controversial about this - Do you must like arguing?

I explained that Jesus did not come from heaven but that the verse is saying the only one who has gone up to heaven is the man Jesus Christ who DESCENDED INTO THE GRAVE FIRST.

I explained that but you ignored it. Otis Trinitarians who ADDED ‘from Heaven’ and ‘into Heaven’ to try to bolster their false claims.

So, the words ‘from Heaven’ and ‘into Heaven’ are false renderings. The verse simple says:

• ‘No one has ascended who did not first descend except the son of man’

Trinitarians seized their chance (supposedly as clarification!!) by adding more text:

• ‘No one has ascended [INTO HEAVEN] who did not first descend [FROM HEAVEN] except the son of man [WHO IS IN HEAVEN]

But we know that Jesus taught that we must first ‘die’ (descend into the grave) and be reborn in the Holy Spirit in order to see (Be raised up into) Heaven - as he did!!!

There are no true verses in scriptures which claim Jesus ‘Came down from Heaven’.

Being ‘Sent from God’ is not ‘Being sent from Heaven’… there are MANY VERSES where prophets and HOLY people were ‘SENT FROM GOD‘ - were these also ‘in Heaven’? Absolutely, No!!

And, again, Jesus only ever said that he was ‘going to the Father’ / ‘Going to GOD’. If he was truly from Heaven then he would say he was ‘going BACK’ to the Father/God/Heaven.

 

[101G]

I have no idea why you need to be controversial about this - Do you must like arguing?

no I just like to have the INFORMATION correct before a LIE get started.

I explained that Jesus did not come from heaven

this is my point from the above response. Jesus came from HEAVEN, but not the Christ, or the Son of God. this is why I'm so critical in getting it right before an ERROR is made.
now lets get it right, Jesus came from heaven, but not the Christ. listen closely.... the Son of Man came down from HEAVEN, the Son of God came out of Mary's womb. understand now?

But we know that Jesus taught that we must first ‘die’ (descend into the grave) and be reborn in the Holy Spirit in order to see (Be raised up into) Heaven - as he did!!!

who told you that error? not all will die the First death, natural.... listen, 1 Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," (READ THAT AGAIN) 1 Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

now the reborn in the Holy Spirit is in Baptism, in the WATERLY GRAVE, after one REPENTS. then 1 Corinthians 15:51 & 51

101G.

 

[Soapy]

no I just like to have the INFORMATION correct before a LIE get started.

this is my point from the above response. Jesus came from HEAVEN, but not the Christ, or the Son of God. this is why I'm so critical in getting it right before an ERROR is made.
now lets get it right, Jesus came from heaven, but not the Christ. listen closely.... the Son of Man came down from HEAVEN, the Son of God came out of Mary's womb. understand now?

who told you that error? not all will die the First death, natural.... listen, 1 Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," (READ THAT AGAIN) 1 Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

now the reborn in the Holy Spirit is in Baptism, in the WATERLY GRAVE, after one REPENTS. then 1 Corinthians 15:51 & 51

101G.

I believe that Paul made an error in 1 Cor 15:51.

But the error is not in that ‘We shall not all die … but changed in the twinkling in an eye’.

The error is in the timescale.

In Paul’s days as an apostle, it was believed that Jesus was going to return VERY SOON… in the lifetime of the THEN PRESENT SAINTS.

For that reason, no one wrote anything down - there would be no need since Jesus was returning VERRY SOOON!

Hence, Paul imagined that some present apostles would still be alive and would not have to first die to achieve the heavenly status with the immortal body.

In hindsight, we can see that that DID NOT OCCUR - They all died!!!

The truth is that the saints ARE STILL IN RECRUITMENT because Jesus HAS NOT YET RETURNED.

Your point is therefore invalid - in fact, it seems you were so desperate for a comeback that you just plucked a seemingly worthy verse out of scriptures without much in-depth thought as to its true meaning…. Bad!!!! Never be desperate - desperation leads to fallacies - fallacies leads to misleading!!!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

...........................In Paul’s days as an apostle, it was believed that Jesus was going to return VERY SOON… in the lifetime of the THEN PRESENT SAINTS.
For that reason, no one wrote anything down - there would be no need since Jesus was returning VERRY SOOON!
Hence, Paul imagined that some present apostles would still be alive and would not have to first die to achieve the heavenly status with the immortal body
In hindsight, we can see that that DID NOT OCCUR - They all died!!!
The truth is that the saints ARE STILL IN RECRUITMENT because Jesus HAS NOT YET RETURNED.

Jesus' illustration is quite clear to his apostles that his return would N0T be VERRY SOOON at Luke 19:12-15.
Acts 1:7-8 Jesus puts emphasis on the great work 'ahead' and how extensive the world-wide work would be at Acts 1:8 B
However, now with the WWW (World Wide Web) people even in remote areas can have access to Scripture as never before.
There is N0 way that Matthew 24:14; Mark 13:10 would be accomplished on a grand international scale in the first century.

1st-century saints (Dan. 7:18) died and so did those saints/holy ones up to the time of the first or earlier resurrection - Rev. 20:6
There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies - 1st Cor. 15:36-41
Verse 44 mentions what is raised (resurrected) in a spirit body ( Like resurrected Jesus ascended in a spirit body - Acts 1:9 )
'Flesh' ( physical ) can Not inherit the kingdom - 1st Cor. 15:50
So, all who are called to be part of the first or earlier resurrection of Rev. 20:6 do die, but unlike the first-century dead saints/holy ones they do Not spend time in the grave but are changed quickly.( Not all sleep - 1st Cor. 15:51-52 )
Yes, some may still be chosen as saints/holy ones. ( Luke 12:32 little flock )

 

[Soapy]

Jesus' illustration is quite clear to his apostles that his return would N0T be VERRY SOOON at Luke 19:12-15.
Acts 1:7-8 Jesus puts emphasis on the great work 'ahead' and how extensive the world-wide work would be at Acts 1:8 B
However, now with the WWW (World Wide Web) people even in remote areas can have access to Scripture as never before.
There is N0 way that Matthew 24:14; Mark 13:10 would be accomplished on a grand international scale in the first century.

1st-century saints (Dan. 7:18) died and so did those saints/holy ones up to the time of the first or earlier resurrection - Rev. 20:6
There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies - 1st Cor. 15:36-41
Verse 44 mentions what is raised (resurrected) in a spirit body ( Like resurrected Jesus ascended in a spirit body - Acts 1:9 )
'Flesh' ( physical ) can Not inherit the kingdom - 1st Cor. 15:50
So, all who are called to be part of the first or earlier resurrection of Rev. 20:6 do die, but unlike the first-century dead saints/holy ones they do Not spend time in the grave but are changed quickly.( Not all sleep - 1st Cor. 15:51-52 )
Yes, some may still be chosen as saints/holy ones. ( Luke 12:32 little flock )

I think you misunderstand - PAUL…. and the Apostles of the time … thought that Jesus was returning VEERRY SOON.

Did you see that no one wrote anything down… until several DECADES LATER… all preaching was done by word of mouth SINCE the holy spirit gave them remembrance of things (one of the gifts of the spirit of God).

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus was clear in his story illustration that Jesus as the nobleman would journey to a far place (heaven) before returning at Luke 19:11-15

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So you believe that it is possible that Jesus has a name that is different and above the tetragrammaton?

Since Jesus says he did make and will make his God's name known - John 17:6, 26 - then Jesus has a name different from the Tetragrammaton.
Jesus' name however is Not above the Tetragrammaton but above all other names.
Of the two LORD/lord's Jesus is the lower-case 'Lord' at KJV Psalms 110. The all 'Upper-Case LORD' stands for the Tetragrammaton.