Why Does God Allow Suffering?

[Trailblazer]

Made by an imperfect God, or no God at all, then.

Sorry, that is illogical, because there is no reason to think that a perfect God would create a perfect world.
There is a REASON why this world is not perfect, and it is for our own good.

 

[Trailblazer]

First and foremost, god would have to be demonstrated to existing before we can put blame on that god.

Then I guess you will never be able to put the blame on God.

 

[Trailblazer]

A creator of everything is responsible for everything. Any imperfections would be entirely down to said creator.

Nope, a creator is only responsible for what He created. What people do with that creation is totally their responsibility.
So any imperfections would be entirely down to people who are living in the creation.

 

[ratiocinator]

Sorry, that is illogical, because there is no reason to think that a perfect God would create a perfect world.

It depends a bit on what you mean by 'perfect', I guess. I can see no reason why a perfectly benevolent God would create a world in which sentient beings suffer.

There is a REASON why this world is not perfect, and it is for our own good.

How so?

 

[ratiocinator]

Nope, a creator is only responsible for what He created. What people do with that creation is totally their responsibility.
So any imperfections would be entirely down to people who are living in the creation.

1. Humans did not create much of the suffering in the world. Natural disasters and disease being the obvious examples, but the whole of nature is a pretty cruel system in many ways. If it's a deliberate design, it's horrifying.
   
   
2. Human 'free will' is logically nonsensical in any sense that would make 'what people do' independent of an omnipotent, omniscient creator.

 

[Trailblazer]

It depends a bit on what you mean by 'perfect', I guess. I can see no reason why a perfectly benevolent God would create a world in which sentient beings suffer.

There is a good reason for suffering because it helps people grow stronger and builds their character.
It also enables people to acquire the spiritual qualities which will be needed in the next life. In short, no pain, no gain.

How so?

See above.

 

[ratiocinator]

There is a good reason for suffering because it helps people grow stronger and builds their character.
It also enables people to acquire the spiritual qualities which will be needed in the next life. In short, no pain, no gain.

People are designed to need suffering? You're not making things any better, that makes God even more perverse and monstrous.

 

[Trailblazer]

1. Humans did not create much of the suffering in the world. Natural disasters and disease being the obvious examples, but the whole of nature is a pretty cruel system in many ways. If it's a deliberate design, it's horrifying.

It is not a deliberate design, it is simply part of the natural world.

2. Human 'free will' is logically nonsensical in any sense that would make 'what people do' independent of an omnipotent, omniscient creator.

There is nothing logically nonsensical about 'what people choosing to do' being independent of an omnipotent, omniscient creator.
It is perfectly logical since God wanted human choices to be independent and free from of interference from Him.

 

[Trailblazer]

People are designed to need suffering? You're not making things any better, that makes God even more perverse and monstrous.

I did not say that people are designed to need suffering, but this world was created such that there would be suffering as well as joy.

Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 200-201

People learn and grow in the good times and the bad, but people who suffer more grow stronger than people who don't.

Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 49-51

 

[ratiocinator]

It is not a deliberate design, it is simply part of the natural world.

An omniscient, omnipotent creator (which my original comments explicitly declared as a starting assumption) would be able to create whatever it wanted, by definition.

There is nothing logically nonsensical about 'what people choosing to do' being independent of an omnipotent, omniscient creator.

'True' free will is simply locally incoherent, full stop (it's just more obvious when you posit omni type God). People's choices are either the direct result of the person's history (nature, nurture, and experience) or there is some random element (which it's 'will'). We are either deterministic systems or we aren't. There is no third option.

I did not say that people are designed to need suffering, but this world was created such that there would be suffering as well as joy.

This seems to be a distinction without a difference.

You said before that suffering "helps people grow stronger and builds their character" and "enables people to acquire the spiritual qualities which will be needed in the next life". Either that is by design, or your God isn't omnipotent and omniscient (which means you ignored my starting position).

 

[Trailblazer]

An omniscient, omnipotent creator (which my original comments explicitly declared as a starting assumption) would be able to create whatever it wanted, by definition.

That's true, but so what? Since humans are not omniscient, they are in no position to complain, since they cannot know more than God about how to create a world.

'True' free will is simply locally incoherent, full stop (it's just more obvious when you posit omni type God). People's choices are either the direct result of the person's history (nature, nurture, and experience) or there is some random element (which it's 'will'). We are either deterministic systems or we aren't. There is no third option.

'Complete' free will is logically impossible since we are never FREE to do anything we want to do.

I believe our choices are determined by our heredity and previous experiences, but that does not mean we do not make choices. Free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these are the reasons why we choose one thing or another.

How free our choices vary with the situation. Certainly, what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity but we have volition as otherwise we could not do anything.

This seems to be a distinction without a difference.

You said before that suffering "helps people grow stronger and builds their character" and "enables people to acquire the spiritual qualities which will be needed in the next life". Either that is by design, or your God isn't omnipotent and omniscient (which means you ignored my starting position).

It is by design that suffering "helps people grow stronger and builds their character" and "enables people to acquire the spiritual qualities which will be needed in the next life". What's wrong with that design?

I hope you do not say that God could have designed it differently so nobody would have to suffer because the very minute you say that you are saying you know better than God, which is logically impossible given God is omniscient.

 

[ratiocinator]

That's true, but so what? Since humans are not omniscient, they are in no position to complain, since they cannot know more than God about how to create a world.

Yes, but we can only rely on our own (God given, if such a thing exists) reasoning abilities to assess what we see and draw conclusions. A God cannot reasonably expect us to do anything else, unless it actually values us abandoning our reasoning abilities...

I believe our choices are determined by our heredity and previous experiences, but that does not mean we do not make choices. Free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these are the reasons why we choose one thing or another.

But an omnipotent, omniscient creator, would have effective control over all those factors, leaving us with no free will, with respect to such a God, at all.

It is by design that suffering "helps people grow stronger and builds their character" and "enables people to acquire the spiritual qualities which will be needed in the next life". What's wrong with that design?

It's cruel.

I hope you do not say that God could have designed it differently so nobody would have to suffer because the very minute you say that you are saying you know better than God, which is logically impossible given God is omniscient.

See my first point above.

Applying my own reasoning abilities to the state of the world, leads directly to the conclusion that there is no fair and just, omnipotent, omniscient creator, for the reasons I've set out multiple times.

Assuming that there is one anyway and that I'm unable to know better than it would be a begging the question fallacy.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, but we can only rely on our own (God given, if such a thing exists) reasoning abilities to assess what we see and draw conclusions. A God cannot reasonably expect us to do anything else, unless it actually values us abandoning our reasoning abilities...

I think God wants us to use our reasoning abilities, that is why we have them.

But an omnipotent, omniscient creator, would have effective control over all those factors, leaving us with no free will, with respect to such a God, at all.

An omnipotent, omniscient creator could control all those factors, leaving us with no free will at all, but instead, God allows us limited free will.

It's cruel.

That is only your personal opinion, we all have those. Sometimes I think it is cruel too, given I am a person who has endured lifelong suffering.
The promise of my religion is that this suffering will come to an end when we die and enter the spiritual world (heaven).

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 323-329

Of course there is no proof of that, but I try to believe it, with varying degrees of success.

See my first point above.

Applying my own reasoning abilities to the state of the world, leads directly to the conclusion that there is no fair and just, omnipotent, omniscient creator, for the reasons I've set out multiple times.

Two can play at this game. Applying my own reasoning abilities, when I look at all the suffering in the world, that leads me directly to the conclusion that there is no loving God, let alone a God who is fair and just. However I don't have to believe that God is loving, fair and just, in order to believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient.

Assuming that there is one anyway and that I'm unable to know better than it would be a begging the question fallacy.

Logically speaking, if there is an omniscient God, you can never know more than that God, since no human is omniscient.
So it is not begging the question to conclude that you are unable to know more than an omniscient God, if such a God exists.

 

[Jainarayan]

You can not teach me what I already know.

Riiight! I'd have used the laughing emoji but we frown on that.

 

[Koldo]

Riiight! I'd have used the laughing emoji but we frown on that.

But it is true. And I am not saying I have deep knowledge concerning Hinduism. It is just that what you have presented is nothing new to me.

 

[CG Didymus]

It depends a bit on what you mean by 'perfect', I guess. I can see no reason why a perfectly benevolent God would create a world in which sentient beings suffer.


How so?

Ancient religions did give reasons didn't they? Like some had evil gods that caused it. Even Christianity has Satan being a big part of the cause. With TB, being a Baha'i, her beliefs are a little different... there is no Satan to blame. And since they believe God is perfect, then the only ones left to blame are people.

But pain and suffering are built into creation. Is it to help people grow spiritually? Maybe sometimes. But for some people it just gets them to hate the Gods of religion.

But the God of the Christians is going to make a perfect world supposedly. So, suffering was just a temporary thing. Adam and Eve sin, God cursed them and the serpent, then sent his Son Jesus and one day Satan and all pain and suffering will be done away with.

Now Baha'is don't believe that stuff. But they do have people going to some spiritual world after death. And, in that spiritual world, people can still grow spiritually. So, does that mean there will still be suffering?

I don't know, but I get the feeling religious prophets are just making things up as they go.

 

[ratiocinator]

An omnipotent, omniscient creator could control all those factors, leaving us with no free will at all, but instead, God allows us limited free will.

It would inevitably control those things, since it would know all the consequences of its chosen creation. Choosing to create this world is to make the choice about everybody's nature, nurture, and experience.

That is only your personal opinion, we all have those.

Deliberately causing unnecessary suffering is cruelty. It's part of the dictionary definition: "causing pain to people or animals intentionally".

Of course there is no proof of that, but I try to believe it, with varying degrees of success.

Why?

Two can play at this game. Applying my own reasoning abilities, when I look at all the suffering in the world, that leads me directly to the conclusion that there is no loving God, let alone a God who is fair and just. However I don't have to believe that God is loving, fair and just, in order to believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient.

Why are you doing it at all? Why not just live with the obvious conclusion?

Logically speaking, if there is an omniscient God, you can never know more than that God, since no human is omniscient.
So it is not begging the question to conclude that you are unable to know more than an omniscient God, if such a God exists.

It's begging the question to assume there is such a God against the logic and in the absence of evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now Baha'is don't believe that stuff. But they do have people going to some spiritual world after death. And, in that spiritual world, people can still grow spiritually. So, does that mean there will still be suffering?

I think that there might still be suffering for some people in the spiritual world, but if we played our cards right in this life there will be no more suffering, only joy and gladness.

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 345-346

I think where we end up in the spiritual world will all depend upon how we conducted our lives in this world. What we believed will play a part in our experience of the spiritual world since our beliefs will hopefully guide our actions.

 

[Trailblazer]

It would inevitably control those things, since it would know all the consequences of its chosen creation.

God's foreknowledge of the consequences has no bearing upon what happens in this world. Man's actions are the cause of what happens.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 149-150

Choosing to create this world is to make the choice about everybody's nature, nurture, and experience.

No, God created the world and allowed it to unfold naturally. God have man dominion over the earth and free will to make choices.

Deliberately causing unnecessary suffering is cruelty. It's part of the dictionary definition: "causing pain to people or animals intentionally".

It would be cruel to deliberately cause suffering, but God does not deliberately cause suffering, and in fact God does not cause suffering at all.
Suffering is simply part and parcel of living in a material world where suffering is unavoidable.

Why?

I believe it because Baha'u'llah wrote it, but since I don't know anything about what the afterlife will be like it is difficult to believe that it will be as glorious as it is depicted. That requires a lot of faith since it an unknown.

Why are you doing it at all? Why not just live with the obvious conclusion?

The conclusion that is obvious to me is that there is a God who is omnipotent and omniscient.
It is not obvious that there is no loving God who is fair and just. That is just how I sometimes feel and I am no doubt wrong.

It's begging the question to assume there is such a God against the logic and in the absence of evidence.

I do not assume there is a God, I believe there is a God. I believe there is a God because of the evidence.
Belief in God is not against logic. It is very logical, if you recognize the evidence for God.

 

[ratiocinator]

God's foreknowledge of the consequences has no bearing upon what happens in this world. Man's actions are the cause of what happens.

No, God created the world and allowed it to unfold naturally. God have man dominion over the earth and free will to make choices.

You really can't disentangle the two things. God would know every single consequence of making the world like this, as opposed to all the other ways it might have created it. The act of creation is to make the choice for all the consequences.

It would be cruel to deliberately cause suffering, but God does not deliberately cause suffering, and in fact God does not cause suffering at all.
Suffering is simply part and parcel of living in a material world where suffering is unavoidable.

God (if it existed) deliberately created a world with suffering. No amount of re-wording things can change that. It was a choice. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, it could have chosen differently.

I believe it because Baha'u'llah wrote it...

Why do you believe that? Why not think for yourself?

The conclusion that is obvious to me is that there is a God who is omnipotent and omniscient.

You have provided not one tiny hint of the merest suggestion of the tiniest scrap of any evidence or reasoning for this conclusion.

I do not assume there is a God, I believe there is a God. I believe there is a God because of the evidence.
Belief in God is not against logic. It is very logical, if you recognize the evidence for God.

What evidence? What logic? You've provided exactly none.