Why does Hamas launch rockets from cities?

[xkatz]

Does the leadership of Hamas actually have any meaningful control over its fighters? Just wondering. Perhaps they are incapable of holding to such an agreement.

From my understanding, not all fighters are under Hamas, but most are. Some are under the Islamic Jihad Movement and similar groups. In fact even during the "peace" before this, it was not uncommon to have a rocket or two a day fired into Israel by non-Hamas operatives, as I was told by security personnel in Sderot last summer.

 

[dantech]

From my understanding, not all fighters are under Hamas, but most are. Some are under the Islamic Jihad Movement and similar groups. In fact even during the "peace" before this, it was not uncommon to have a rocket or two a day fired into Israel by non-Hamas operatives, as I was told by security personnel in Sderot last summer.

Sderot is indeed on the receiving end of rockets all year long. Israel closes it's eye on a few rockets a day, and has done so for years. The problem is when it comes by the dozens.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sderot is indeed on the receiving end of rockets all year long. Israel closes it's eye on a few rockets a day, and has done so for years. The problem is when it comes by the dozens.

You realize, I am sure, that for all that I commend the good will of attempting not to stir up the pot, "a few rockets a day" are still very much a problem.

Israel may be hardy and determined and therefore willing to accept the need to deal with such things, but accepting it as one accepts ordinary rain is probably going a bit too far.

This little bit of information may help in explaining why humanitary considerations towards Gaza are often mistaken for a desire to protect terrorism.

With all due respect (and I do mean it), Israel may be so accustommed to violence and warfare that it becomes difficult for those who are not to fully understand its priorities. And perhaps vice-versa.

 

[dantech]

You realize, I am sure, that for all that I commend the good will of attempting not to stir up the pot, "a few rockets a day" are still very much a problem.

Israel may be hardy and determined and therefore willing to accept the need to deal with such things, but accepting it as one accepts ordinary rain is probably going a bit too far.

The problem is that these rockets aren't necessarily shot from officials such as Hamas. It's come up many times how people make home-made rockets and just shoot. There's not much Israel can do against that without coming off as the "terrorist state who kills civilians"

This little bit of information may help in explaining why humanitary considerations towards Gaza are often mistaken for a desire to protect terrorism.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

With all due respect (and I do mean it), Israel may be so accustommed to violence and warfare that it becomes difficult for those who are not to fully understand its priorities. And perhaps vice-versa.

No other country has been consistently attacked since it's creation as Israel has. Yes, they are accustomed to violence, and warfare - unfortunately... Which is why they have the a very advanced military, the Iron Dome, Shelters almost everywhere and are ready for incoming rockets anytime, anywhere. People confuse their readiness and "expertise" at avoiding getting hit with "Puny, miserable, pingpong ball, rockets." That's not the case. These rockets are real threats, but if they fought every time there was an incoming rocket, it'd be all work and no play.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This little bit of information may help in explaining why humanitary considerations towards Gaza are often mistaken for a desire to protect terrorism.

I'm not at all sure that this attitude prevails. Rather, I think many of us feel that far too often humanitarian considerations towards Gaza is wholly dismissive of terrorism and its existential threat to Israel. Hamas, Al-Aqsa, et al are cast as freedom fighters standing up against an infanticidic zionist entity. It is a convenient and irresponsible ignorance that hosts the most virulent strains of antisemitism.

At he same time, we remember what happened immediately subsequent to 2005, we've seen what happened to the humanitarian construction aid, and we recognize that the ideological distance from Hamas/Al-Aqsa to the likes of Isis is far smaller than many are prepared to believe - or even care about.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

I once read and ended up agreeing with a claim that people who live in frontier areas end up having to develop a somewhat eccentrical (if necessary) set of values, one that has to allow for a combative mindset that is ready to scare away and if necessary kill potential invaders.

That may seem obvious once you think of it. But it took me quite a while to do so. Of course, I am dumb and that explains it, but let's not wander away from the subject matter.

What may not be too obvious either is that frontier people (and those who have close contact and familiarity with their values) may also at least conceivably have a hard time reminding themselves that there it is not only the day-to-day routine that is different, but also the moral priorities.

I have no doubt that some degree of ignorance of the actual needs of military defense and resulting lacks of choice is at play here. And I am fairly certain that such ignorance involves the needs of both sides as well.

Also, as you have just reminded me, it is a potentially very dangerous oversimplification to equate Gazans with Hamas terrorists, or even actual Gazan intentional launching of all too lethal missiles towards Israel with Hamas-approved, planned hostilities. Undefensable as Hamas-motivated violence may be, it is hardly the one and only motivator of violence and terrorism in Gazas. I suspect it may well fail to be even the most rabid one. For that matter, I'm not sure the violent groups are even clearly defined and well organized. I suspect that they are not.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

These rockets are real threats, but if they fought every time there was an incoming rocket, it'd be all work and no play.

And the question posed by peace activist Amos Oz stands.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not at all sure that this attitude prevails. Rather, I think many of us feel that far too often humanitarian considerations towards Gaza is wholly dismissive of terrorism and its existential threat to Israel.

Isn't that what I just speculated?

Hamas, Al-Aqsa, et al are cast as freedom fighters standing up against an infanticidic zionist entity. It is a convenient and irresponsible ignorance that hosts the most virulent strains of antisemitism.

That no doubt happens.

I'm far less certain that it happens often, or even that it is at all representative of the criticism of Israel as opposed of a straw man of same.

It is certainly impressive how quickly accusations of "anti-semitism" are thrown around towards people that I have a very hard time even attempting to perceive as such.

I truly believe that this particular attempt at explaining criticism of Israeli actions has been dangerously over-used. It seems to me that in many or even most cases it would be far more accurate to accuse us of reckless judgements of situations we fail to reasonably understand.

Truth be told, that would be a powerful accusation, one that might well shut my own mouth a lot of the time. I can even see people salivating right now...

At he same time, we remember what happened immediately subsequent to 2005, we've seen what happened to the humanitarian construction aid, and we recognize that the ideological distance from Hamas/Al-Aqsa to the likes of Isis is far smaller than many are prepared to believe - or even care about.

That I have no argument with. I do however maintain that this is evidence that a military solution is probably not possible, and other forms of dealing with the trouble should be attempted.

 

[dantech]

I once read and ended up agreeing with a claim that people who live in frontier areas end up having to develop a somewhat eccentrical (if necessary) set of values, one that has to allow for a combative mindset that is ready to scare away and if necessary kill potential invaders.

That may seem obvious once you think of it. But it took me quite a while to do so. Of course, I am dumb and that explains it, but let's not wander away from the subject matter.

What may not be too obvious either is that frontier people (and those who have close contact and familiarity with their values) may also at least conceivably have a hard time reminding themselves that there it is not only the day-to-day routine that is different, but also the moral priorities.

I have no doubt that some degree of ignorance of the actual needs of military defense and resulting lacks of choice is at play here. And I am fairly certain that such ignorance involves the needs of both sides as well.

Also, as you have just reminded me, it is a potentially very dangerous oversimplification to equate Gazans with Hamas terrorists, or even actual Gazan intentional launching of all too lethal missiles towards Israel with Hamas-approved, planned hostilities. Undefensable as Hamas-motivated violence may be, it is hardly the one and only motivator of violence and terrorism in Gazas. I suspect it may well fail to be even the most rabid one. For that matter, I'm not sure the violent groups are even clearly defined and well organized. I suspect that they are not.

I can tell you first hand. I lived there for years, and I know what it's like. You're right to assume that living in a dangerous environment will cause you to be "somewhat eccentrical". Also, when you're on the receiving end of those rockets, and although not right, it becomes more and more easy to equate Gazans with Hamas terrorists. Especially so when you have "civilians" who shoot from their own free will.

 

[dantech]

And the question posed by peace activist Amos Oz stands.

Despite all the kills, and all the damage caused, I still haven't read a more reasonable, realistic, solution than the one Israel followed through with, at least in theory.

 

[metis]

I think it's important to add that even though some other elements, such as Islamic Jihad, are launching these rockets, Hamas has made no attempt that we can see to stop them. Have any been arrested? prosecuted?

We have seen that same tactic used against targets in northern Israel launched by Hezbollah whereas the Lebanese government would say something like "It ain't us!", meanwhile doing literally nothing to stop them. Now, if I'm at my home near Detroit, and I make and launch rockets into Windsor, Ontario, would I expect my government to just tell the Canadians "It ain't us!" and just allow me to continue?

 

[dantech]

That I have no argument with. I do however maintain that this is evidence that a military solution is probably not possible, and other forms of dealing with the trouble should be attempted.

Right now, I see two things.

Every few years there is a conflict such as this one. It lasts a few weeks, and then there is "two-three rockets a day" peace, for Israel.

This time, they tried to negotiate on multiple occasions, and every time, Israel ceased while Hamas fired. Negotiations are not possible while a terrorist group whose charter calls for the death of Jews is at the head.

People will then start with the "it started because of the oppression" argument. It's really the chicken and the egg. At the very least, I think we could all agree that Hamas is not helping Palestinians in any way. Maybe when/if they'll be gone, Gaza will have a sane leader who is willing to follow through on ceasefires and really work out a solution with Israel's leader, verbally.

 

[dantech]

More and more I feel that family is a very high priority for the Jewish People.

It is for us. Especially in a time of war, and to families such as mine who have already lost members to these types of conflicts.

 

[LuisDantas]

Right now, I see two things.

Every few years there is a conflict such as this one. It lasts a few weeks, and then there is "two-three rockets a day" peace, for Israel.

This time, they tried to negotiate on multiple occasions, and every time, Israel ceased while Hamas fired. Negotiations are not possible while a terrorist group whose charter calls for the death of Jews is at the head.

People will then start with the "it started because of the oppression" argument. It's really the chicken and the egg. At the very least, I think we could all agree that Hamas is not helping Palestinians in any way. Maybe when/if they'll be gone, Gaza will have a sane leader who is willing to follow through on ceasefires and really work out a solution with Israel's leader, verbally.

I don't disagree as such, but it seems to be a bit of an unsupported hope, even of hoping for the consequence to happen so that the cause can be met at long last.

Whatever circunstances made Hamas' election possible may or may not have changed. Gazans may or may not truly support and identify with its policies. I don't presume to know. But if there are any news of Gazans rebelling against Hamas' policies, they sure have not reached me.

Those are not circunstances that lead me to expect that removing Hamas would be helpful in and of itself.

For all I know it may well be that if, hypothetically, Hamas' leadership has a collective apotheosis and decides to renounce any violence for good, publicly and emphatically, that will only mean that they will have to step aside so that other, even worse radicals take their place. I have little reason to assume that Hamas are like mind-control villains conspurcating the otherwise reasonable community of Gaza. There is more evidence suggesting that they are instead the necessary expression of a huge amount of pent-up indignation and frustration.

The bottom line is, I fear that attempts at improving the situation by somehow removing Hamas may well be just wishful thinking that attempts to ignore the actual causes of the dire situation.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is for us. Especially in a time of war, and to families such as mine who have already lost members to these types of conflicts.

I hope I made it clear, but just in case: I mean that with the utmost respect and admiration. Family matters. Family is supposed to matter. And to the best of my understanding, describing the Jewish People as a whole as a huge (and dedicated) family is not too far off the mark.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It is certainly impressive how quickly accusations of "anti-semitism" are thrown around towards people that I have a very hard time even attempting to perceive as such.

I truly believe that this particular attempt at explaining criticism of Israeli actions has been dangerously over-used. It seems to me that in many or even most cases it would be far more accurate to accuse us of reckless judgements of situations we fail to reasonably understand.

I completely agree with this.

 

[Mycroft]

I completely agree with this.

 

[Sunstone]

...we recognize that the ideological distance from Hamas/Al-Aqsa to the likes of Isis is far smaller than many are prepared to believe - or even care about.

Extremism has a way of inspiring even greater extremism. Like cancer, it runs amok. Sadly, I would be surprised if Hamas did not become more extremist as time goes on.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Extremism has a way of inspiring even greater extremism. Like cancer, it runs amok. Sadly, I would be surprised if Hamas did not become more extremist as time goes on.

I can only assume you mean more extremist in their nobility, honor, and peacemaking efforts.

 

[Sunstone]

I can only assume you mean more extremist in their nobility, honor, and peacemaking efforts.

Can there be any doubt of it?