Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[CG Didymus]

You argument necessarily assumed it did happen. You can't condemn an event that never occurred. My view is I have no idea whether the story is literal or symbolic but it is logically coherent either way.

You need to decide if you want to condemn God given the story or condemn the story.

Well isn't that special. Isn't it time you decide? Is it literal or symbolic? Like I said, all those verses that say God ordered the Hebrews to kill women and children, I think, were only an ancient warrior people killing and conquering their neighbors and then saying their God told them to do it. So the real God, whoever that is, is off the hook.

Your problem is: Where does the Bible start telling the real truth? If Genesis is only based on legends and traditions of men, then you can't use it to build your doctrines of God, Satan, Jesus, salvation, heaven and hell, moral depravity and so on. Humans have a dark side. They can choose to do good. Most people would rather give up some of their freedoms to live in peace with their neighbors. A good rule, that people could have easily come up with is... Do unto others what you'd like them to do unto you.

So instead of the complicated mess that is the Christian religion, what if that's all it was? In the beginning the leaders devised a way to get people to try and do good and invented God? "God said do these things. Do them and all we be well. Don't do them and things will go bad." Then they added, "God said that if you don't do these things we have to stone you to death." "God said that those people that live in the land we want are evil. We are to kill all of them lest they pollute us." Since bad things happen to good people, they added, "Once there was a man that was blessed by God, but an adversary asked to test him to see if he will still praise God even when things go bad."

Who knows with Jesus. There's too many things that sound fishy, like walking on water, his virgin birth, him being God. The point I always try and make is... in practice, believing in Jesus still doesn't make people behave any better or any worse than people in other religions. So, if those other religions aren't real... if they are only made up from myths and legends that people invented, then, why not Christianity? It doesn't mean it doesn't feel real. It doesn't mean there isn't some things that make seem real. It doesn't mean that, if you take some selected verses from the "OT", you can't build a seemingly coherent story.

Trouble is, this thread assumes the Bible is literal. If literal, God purposely let Adam fail. Who was the serpent? Christians centuries later say it was Satan. Christians, centuries later, say that we all, even babies, inherited a sin nature. Some Christians devised the doctrine of "original sin". Some Christians said that parents have to baptize their children to, I guess, wash away that sin? You say, no problem, no need for infant baptism, God doesn't hold them accountable anyway.

How do you know this? A few verses pulled together. How do you know we are born morally depraved? A few verses pulled together from various places. How do you know Jesus is God? It says he forgave a persons sin. But, Jesus said only his Father is good? So what is he? Christians came up with fully man and fully God.

So how does the story go?
"How do we know any of this is true?"
"Because the Bible says so, and it's the literal, inerrant, infallible Word of God."
"Who says so?"
"It does. It says "all Scripture" was inspired."
"But wasn't that talking about the Hebrew Bible?"
"Yes, but the NT says that Paul's words were from God also, so all of the NT is the Word of God also."
"Even though things in it contradict?"
"If you study it as a whole, and disregard things that seem to contradict, it doesn't contradict. It is totally coherent throughout."
"So God created everything in 6 literal days."
"I don't know. That could be symbolic. It doesn't matter. Jesus rose from the dead to save sinners just like the Bible says."
"But how do we know that's true?"
"Because the Bible says so."
"But then why do so many Jews reject Jesus?"
"They're interpreting the Bible wrong. The Bible prophesied about Jesus. Hundreds of prophecies that all came true."
"But didn't the Bible prophecy the Messiah was going to usher in a time of peace?"
"Yes, that's when Jesus comes back a second time."
"Where in the Bible does it say the Messiah will come twice?"
"Jesus said he was coming back and then told John in Revelation."
"Which John wrote Revelation?"
"I believe it was John the apostle."
"How do you know that? I read that the writing style was different in Revelation to his other writings?"
"So, he was old and forgot how to spell."
"But wasn't it an angel or Jesus telling him the story?"
"Yes, on part of it, but the rest of it was a vision."
"But..."
"No, no, wait. Listen, you ask too many questions. Just ask me one or two things and I'll be glad to give you my answer."
"Okay, what is the truth about salvation?"
"Jesus, is the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through him."
"How do you know that?"
"That's it. I told you. Now read the Bible for yourself. It's all there. It is all one coherent story."
"Okay, okay, just one more question. Where does it say babies are born depraved?"

 

[1robin]

Well isn't that special. Isn't it time you decide? Is it literal or symbolic? Like I said, all those verses that say God ordered the Hebrews to kill women and children, I think, were only an ancient warrior people killing and conquering their neighbors and then saying their God told them to do it. So the real God, whoever that is, is off the hook.

Your problem is: Where does the Bible start telling the real truth? If Genesis is only based on legends and traditions of men, then you can't use it to build your doctrines of God, Satan, Jesus, salvation, heaven and hell, moral depravity and so on. Humans have a dark side. They can choose to do good. Most people would rather give up some of their freedoms to live in peace with their neighbors. A good rule, that people could have easily come up with is... Do unto others what you'd like them to do unto you.

So instead of the complicated mess that is the Christian religion, what if that's all it was? In the beginning the leaders devised a way to get people to try and do good and invented God? "God said do these things. Do them and all we be well. Don't do them and things will go bad." Then they added, "God said that if you don't do these things we have to stone you to death." "God said that those people that live in the land we want are evil. We are to kill all of them lest they pollute us." Since bad things happen to good people, they added, "Once there was a man that was blessed by God, but an adversary asked to test him to see if he will still praise God even when things go bad."

Who knows with Jesus. There's too many things that sound fishy, like walking on water, his virgin birth, him being God. The point I always try and make is... in practice, believing in Jesus still doesn't make people behave any better or any worse than people in other religions. So, if those other religions aren't real... if they are only made up from myths and legends that people invented, then, why not Christianity? It doesn't mean it doesn't feel real. It doesn't mean there isn't some things that make seem real. It doesn't mean that, if you take some selected verses from the "OT", you can't build a seemingly coherent story.

Trouble is, this thread assumes the Bible is literal. If literal, God purposely let Adam fail. Who was the serpent? Christians centuries later say it was Satan. Christians, centuries later, say that we all, even babies, inherited a sin nature. Some Christians devised the doctrine of "original sin". Some Christians said that parents have to baptize their children to, I guess, wash away that sin? You say, no problem, no need for infant baptism, God doesn't hold them accountable anyway.

How do you know this? A few verses pulled together. How do you know we are born morally depraved? A few verses pulled together from various places. How do you know Jesus is God? It says he forgave a persons sin. But, Jesus said only his Father is good? So what is he? Christians came up with fully man and fully God.

So how does the story go?
"How do we know any of this is true?"
"Because the Bible says so, and it's the literal, inerrant, infallible Word of God."
"Who says so?"
"It does. It says "all Scripture" was inspired."
"But wasn't that talking about the Hebrew Bible?"
"Yes, but the NT says that Paul's words were from God also, so all of the NT is the Word of God also."
"Even though things in it contradict?"
"If you study it as a whole, and disregard things that seem to contradict, it doesn't contradict. It is totally coherent throughout."
"So God created everything in 6 literal days."
"I don't know. That could be symbolic. It doesn't matter. Jesus rose from the dead to save sinners just like the Bible says."
"But how do we know that's true?"
"Because the Bible says so."
"But then why do so many Jews reject Jesus?"
"They're interpreting the Bible wrong. The Bible prophesied about Jesus. Hundreds of prophecies that all came true."
"But didn't the Bible prophecy the Messiah was going to usher in a time of peace?"
"Yes, that's when Jesus comes back a second time."
"Where in the Bible does it say the Messiah will come twice?"
"Jesus said he was coming back and then told John in Revelation."
"Which John wrote Revelation?"
"I believe it was John the apostle."
"How do you know that? I read that the writing style was different in Revelation to his other writings?"
"So, he was old and forgot how to spell."
"But wasn't it an angel or Jesus telling him the story?"
"Yes, on part of it, but the rest of it was a vision."
"But..."
"No, no, wait. Listen, you ask too many questions. Just ask me one or two things and I'll be glad to give you my answer."
"Okay, what is the truth about salvation?"
"Jesus, is the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through him."
"How do you know that?"
"That's it. I told you. Now read the Bible for yourself. It's all there. It is all one coherent story."
"Okay, okay, just one more question. Where does it say babies are born depraved?"

I asked you to concentrate on only a topic or two and not ask so many questions on so many subjects that none can be answered in practicality to my view of sufficiency. You did not do so, so I will only offer a brief response.


Not a single one of the ten commandments nor even a single one of the levitical laws require me to know whether the garden of Eden was a literal place or a symbolic place. Nor does my faith depend on either.

 

[CG Didymus]

Again - This is BULL and you know it!


They did not write these laws into their Sacred Books so they could just sit around and admire them!


The wrote them in so they could do the nasty deeds!


As for what you have read, - you know perfectly well, - the majority of such writings are Christian and Jewish, and they are trying to hide their evil past, by fudging texts and meanings.


Such as putting in "indentured servant" when we know it is a "SLAVE" that is going to be raped and kept forever.


Or writing the word "wife" for "female" to skew the meaning of that take home the enemy child, let her scream for 30 days, and you can RAPE her, text!



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I don't know if this is pertinent, but I found this about Southern Baptists and slavery:

On 20 June 1995, the Southern Baptist Convention voted to adopt a resolution renouncing its racist roots and apologizing for its past defense of slavery. More than 20,000 Southern Baptists registered for the meeting in Atlanta. The resolution declared that messengers, as SBC delegates are called, "unwaveringly denounce racism, in all its forms, as deplorable sin" and "lament and repudiate historic acts of evil such as slavery from which we continue to reap a bitter harvest." It offered an apology to all African-Americans for "condoning and/or perpetuating individual and systemic racism in our lifetime" and repentance for "racism of which we have been guilty, whether consciously or unconsciously." Although Southern Baptists have condemned racism in the past, this was the first time the predominantly white convention had dealt specifically with the issue of slavery.

It sounds like they used the Bible to justify slavery. I wonder how they defined the it?

 

[1robin]

I don't know if this is pertinent, but I found this about Southern Baptists and slavery:
It sounds like they used the Bible to justify slavery. I wonder how they defined the it?

They had them and they used the bible to justify it. They were also perfectly wrong and hundreds of thousands of Christians lead by a Christian fought to free them. Why didn't you link the last part of the story? The Christian deaths in the process of ending slavery in the US is the only significant example of a nation voluntarily ending it's own slavery practice.

 

[SkepticThinker]

They had them and they used the bible to justify it. They were also perfectly wrong and hundreds of thousands of Christians lead by a Christian fought to free them. Why didn't you link the last part of the story? The Christian deaths in the process of ending slavery in the US is the only significant example of a nation voluntarily ending it's own slavery practice.

What?

They fought a whole war over it because they didn't want to voluntarily end the practice of slavery.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What?

They fought a whole war over it because they didn't want to voluntarily end the practice of slavery.

To my understanding, the war wasn't even over slavery but about the Union trying to hold onto the South. There wasn't some great humanitarian motive to it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

To my understanding, the war wasn't even over slavery but about the Union trying to hold onto the South. There wasn't some great humanitarian motive to it.

That's pretty much what I was getting at.

 

[CG Didymus]

I asked you to concentrate on only a topic or two and not ask so many questions on so many subjects that none can be answered in practicality to my view of sufficiency. You did not do so, so I will only offer a brief response.


Not a single one of the ten commandments nor even a single one of the levitical laws require me to know whether the garden of Eden was a literal place or a symbolic place. Nor does my faith depend on either.

Well then, the point of this thread has to do with God being evil letting children die. You believe that there is such a thing as an "age of accountability" that makes it okay for children to suffer and die, because they go to heaven anyway. So, let's focus on that. And if you don't mind, let's see those verses you're using to support this "age of accountability" doctrine. And, is there a history to it... like when it was put together and became an "official" church doctrine? How's that? More focused and fewer questions.

 

[Ingledsva]

They had them and they used the bible to justify it. They were also perfectly wrong and hundreds of thousands of Christians lead by a Christian fought to free them. Why didn't you link the last part of the story? The Christian deaths in the process of ending slavery in the US is the only significant example of a nation voluntarily ending it's own slavery practice.

Because the point here is having to PROVE to folks who refuse to see it, that they DID have actual SLAVERY. RAPE, BREEDING for more slaves (rape,) abuse and murder of these slaves, kept forever, etc.


We know some Christians were against slavery at the time of the Civil War -


We also know some Christians were FOR slavery, and fought against freeing them, in the Civil War.



*

 

[adi2d]

To my understanding, the war wasn't even over slavery but about the Union trying to hold onto the South. There wasn't some great humanitarian motive to it.

That shows what an eighth grade education will get you

 

[Ingledsva]

Again - This is BULL and you know it!


They did not write these laws into their Sacred Books so they could just sit around and admire them!


The wrote them in so they could do the nasty deeds!


As for what you have read, - you know perfectly well, - the majority of such writings are Christian and Jewish, and they are trying to hide their evil past, by fudging texts and meanings.


Such as putting in "indentured servant" when we know it is a "SLAVE" that is going to be raped and kept forever.


Or writing the word "wife" for "female" to skew the meaning of that take home the enemy child, let her scream for 30 days, and you can RAPE her, text!

This is absurd. Which claim is wrong or does not account for what you suggest?

1. Slavery of all types except chattel slavery in the OT.


ING - BULL!

Lev 25:44-46 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.


Exo 21:2-4 When you buy a Hebrew slave, he (MALE ONLY) shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him.

If his master have given him a woman (SLAVE BREEDING RAPE), and she have born him sons or daughters; the woman and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

*

2. My comments were about the frequency of the types actually practiced.


ING - You obviously haven't read about such outside modern Abrahamic sources then! I suggest you do so!


3. I said the only evidence we have is for voluntary debt servitude.


ING - See above!


4. I then went on expecting you to get hung up and allow for it by stating I am sure the more virulent forms occurred but judging by the evidence they were far less frequent. What more can you possibly demand?


ING - That "far less frequent: is a Christian cope-out - concerning what the religions of Abraham did for thousands of years!


Using either word is inaccurate, as neither word existed. Servitude is better in some cases and slavery better in others but your using a word loaded with 19th century baggage where it has no place.


ING - LOL! ALL of the words are translations, - and we KNOW which should be translated SLAVERY! See Lev 25 above!

You keep repeating the "servitude" crap - when you KNOW the rape, and war-slave rape, KEEP SLAVES FOREVER - mean exactly that! SLAVERY!


I do not recall using "wife" or "female", mentioning screaming or rape in my posts on the issue. They have nothing to do with my comments. True or false.


ING - Those verses PROVE the LIES about "SERVITUDE!" They show the TRUTH - that it is absolutely RAPE and SLAVERY!


Your sole point seems to be my comments did not contain enough terrible adjectives to satisfy you.

NO - My comments are to point out the CONTINUED fudging of reality by the religions of Abraham to hide their torturing, raping, slavery, murder, etc., that show the religions are NOT from any God.


The FACT that the followers of these horrible patriarchal religions, continue to push this "fudging" of the facts - to make their religions look better, - while continuing to follow such religions, - is a slap to the face of a real God/Gods - if there is one or more out there!


*


*

 

[1robin]

What?

They fought a whole war over it because they didn't want to voluntarily end the practice of slavery.

No, 2/3rds of the nation (or more, few in the trenches in the south owned slaves) determined to limit slavery to where it already was. The less than one third who disagreed objected because of our initial problems with King Georges strong central government. The south succeeded because of states rights issues which included slavery. The bulk of the country resolved that anything that required that price demanded enough justice to make all men free and the war in the north literally became one to free slaves and re-unite the nation. Even the smaller portion of the south was not fighting for slavery. Most were to young and poor to have owned any. That was a concern of the top tier who many times did not fight (just sent others to do so).

You can attempt to modulate my claim but attempting to suggest the majority if the country did not choose to eliminate slavery is absurd.

I like to research the civil war so let me give you two antidotes.

The South's second most important General said. We should have freed the slaves then fired on Fort Sumter. He said we would rather get whipped than admit to the mistake.

The South's greatest General and one of histories best was R. Lee. He never owned a slave and even freed all his wife's slaves. They were treated so well they would not leave.

That was just for information, I am not defending slavery.

I can't help it. Here is another. Our original declaration written by a slave owner outlawed slavery. It was a later draft made to concede to a few cotton states that lacked this. But it did include that proposition men are all born free and should only be ruled by consent. When MLK presented his promissory note demanding freedom it was based on the founding fathers principles not atheism or humanism.

I got going and was too lazy to stop.

 

[1robin]

To my understanding, the war wasn't even over slavery but about the Union trying to hold onto the South. There wasn't some great humanitarian motive to it.

Have you ever read the soldiers diaries themselves. I have shelves of them and books containing them. Not that I agree to your previous point. See my previous post.

 

[1robin]

NO - My comments are to point out the CONTINUED fudging of reality by the religions of Abraham to hide their torturing, raping, slavery, murder, etc., that show the religions are NOT from any God.

The find some unjustifiable killing, some rapes, or tortures and post them. Don't throw the accusations at posts about other things.

The FACT that the followers of these horrible patriarchal religions, continue to push this "fudging" of the facts - to make their religions look better, - while continuing to follow such religions, - is a slap to the face of a real God/Gods - if there is one or more out there!

Exactly which fact was fudged by me?

 

[1robin]

That's pretty much what I was getting at.

No offense but that is a layman's view but not one without merit. Just ultimately not true. I would love a civil war debate. You up for one, or maybe Lvcifr.


BTW I lost track of Pam's story. I have trouble remembering where we put it.

 

[1robin]

Well then, the point of this thread has to do with God being evil letting children die. You believe that there is such a thing as an "age of accountability" that makes it okay for children to suffer and die, because they go to heaven anyway. So, let's focus on that. And if you don't mind, let's see those verses you're using to support this "age of accountability" doctrine. And, is there a history to it... like when it was put together and became an "official" church doctrine? How's that? More focused and fewer questions.

I nor God even hints it is Ok. In a broken world full of sin it may be justifiable. BTW how is a 5 year old that does not have to see his loved ones suffer and die, is not raised by his evil parents only to wind up in Hell in all probability, and who will never be sick or have teeth fall out instead placed into eternal contentment a loss in any category.

Are you wanting to debate events like the death of Children in the Canaanite attack or the concept of accountability that I have already suggested is a deduction from scripture not scripture it's self? Both are massive issues and one is hard to resolve but it is your choice.

 

[1robin]

Because the point here is having to PROVE to folks who refuse to see it, that they DID have actual SLAVERY. RAPE, BREEDING for more slaves (rape,) abuse and murder of these slaves, kept forever, etc.

Who on earth is arguing that Christians did not own slaves and even treat them horrifically?

We know some Christians were against slavery at the time of the Civil War -

Ok

We also know some Christians were FOR slavery, and fought against freeing them, in the Civil War.

Of course there were. We are not insulated from the same sins as every one else, especially ones that are as much a part of histories fabric as slavery. We fail just as all do. However we have an unrivaled record of moral exceptionalism as well. I have said many times I expect to see evil in all groups but only this much exceptional moral events of a true religion. For every slave holding Christian actually firing a rifle to keep slaves there were at least a hundred firing one to free them. I have already hinted why this is the case in a very recent post. Do you need more?

 

[1robin]

That shows what an eighth grade education will get you

It wasn't that bad. A cursory study of it aided by absurd Hollywood support would suggest this. Only serious study can rid of us of this misnomer. It is an excusable claim.

 

[Ingledsva]

The find some unjustifiable killing, some rapes, or tortures and post them. Don't throw the accusations at posts about other things.


Exactly which fact was fudged by me?

LOL! Have you actually read your Bible?


You know, those Kill everyone except those little virgin females to rape, verses.


Or seeing a beauty that you want among the enemy prisoners - and taking her home to keep and rape?


I don't have to provide a single example - as your BIBLE tells us what they COULD, AND THEY DID, DO!


According to the Bible they even kidnapped, raped, and held forever, women from their own tribes!


The kidnaping and rape of the women from the Temple at Shiloh!


Concubines are bought SEX SLAVES.


*

 

[1robin]

LOL! Have you actually read your Bible?

The issue is about what you have shown not what the bible contains.

You know, those Kill everyone except those little virgin females to rape, verses.

You mean the ones you did not post but only paraphrased.

Or seeing a beauty that you want among the enemy prisoners - and taking her home to keep and rape?

Ditto

I don't have to provide a single example - as your BIBLE tells us what they COULD, AND THEY DID, DO!

I know what the bible says. However it was you who said you claim these occurred and before I can agree or disagree you refuse your burden of providing evidence for any of them.

According to the Bible they even kidnapped, raped, and held forever, women from their own tribes!

You will not find a single word you types in the bible's original language. You must show these words are accurate. I am not doing your work for you. I did not begin this discussion defending the bible, you began it by attacking it. It is your burden.

The kidnaping and rape of the women from the Temple at Shiloh


Concubines are bought SEX SLAVES.

You did not write the book you are impugning. I need examples from it not paraphrases from you.