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Why Does Religion Exist

Why does religion exist

  • 1-Superstition

    Votes: 20 37.7%
  • 2-Tool of control

    Votes: 17 32.1%
  • 3-To convey valuable life lessons

    Votes: 17 32.1%
  • 4-Profound truth

    Votes: 15 28.3%
  • 5-Other

    Votes: 35 66.0%

  • Total voters
    53

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Apart from some forms of Buddhism (which would actually be philosophy and not religion), can you give me an example of any religion that doesn't have supernatural beliefs?
Part of the problem in trying to do this is that both the concept of "religion" is very much a modern, Western artifice. The manner in which "supernatural" is understood is also very modern, Western artifice. So you can make up the story to suit whatever you want to tell yourself about it, honestly. But you will misunderstand many religions if you take to them Western ideas about what religion is and insistence on supernaturalism to understanding them. My own - a reconstructed indigenous religion - is one of them.

It's not that I don't think it's a good source, it's that you expect me to go there and read through a long document when you could have more easily just typed name or two that I asked for. It's kind of insulting.
It's... it's literally just one paragraph. :sweat:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/religion said:
Religion, human beings’ relation to that which they regard as holy, sacred, absolute, spiritual, divine, or worthy of especial reverence. It is also commonly regarded as consisting of the way people deal with ultimate concerns about their lives and their fate after death. In many traditions, this relation and these concerns are expressed in terms of one’s relationship with or attitude toward gods or spirits; in more humanistic or naturalistic forms of religion, they are expressed in terms of one’s relationship with or attitudes toward the broader human community or the natural world. In many religions, texts are deemed to have scriptural status, and people are esteemed to be invested with spiritual or moral authority. Believers and worshippers participate in and are often enjoined to perform devotional or contemplative practices such as prayer, meditation, or particular rituals. Worship, moral conduct, right belief, and participation in religious institutions are among the constituent elements of the religious life.

The second paragraph just links out to other related topics.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Part of the problem in trying to do this is that both the concept of "religion" is very much a modern, Western artifice. The manner in which "supernatural" is understood is also very modern, Western artifice. So you can make up the story to suit whatever you want to tell yourself about it, honestly. But you will misunderstand many religions if you take to them Western ideas about what religion is and insistence on supernaturalism to understanding them.
Thank you so much.

I'm actually very aware that religious scholars themselves debate exactly what religion is. Back when I was young and velociraptors roamed the earth, I took a class at the university called "Religion in Literature." We spent an entire lecture discussing what a religion was and wasn't, all the competing ideas. In particular, one definition was that your religion is whatever the "axis" is that your life turns upon. To understand this, we read a completely secular book called "Ordinary People." It's about a family that had wrapped itself around one of the sons, who was a sports champion, and then suddenly the son dies, and the family falls apart. They all feel utterly lost, because that thing which had given their lives meaning, devotion, and structure was suddenly gone.

However, despite the importance of such discussions on the nature of religion, I think it is nevertheless ordinarily true that, at least in English speaking countries, religion necessitates the belief in something supernatural. By supernatural, I mean something that is not bound by the laws of nature. Examples (and this is not meant to be an exhaustive list) would be:
Souls or manna which animate all the things in the universe, as in animism
Belief in ghosts, or souls which otherwise survive into the afterlife.
Belief in angels and/or demons.
Belief in leprechauns, fairies, trolls and other mythical creatures
Belief in human shapeshifters, such as werewolves or skin walkers
Belief in animal spirits that guide you.
Belief that the earth itself, or the universe, has consciousness.
Belief in some kind of soul or essence that continually reincarnates.
Belief that the forces of nature or common abstractions are entities, such as in polytheistic pantheons.
Belief in a single Creator Deity which we can call God.
Belief that any text has a supernatural origin.
My own - a reconstructed indigenous religion - is one of them.
Which indigenous religion are you reconstructing? Most of the indigenous religions I've looked into, such as Native American spirituality, Druidism, African animism, etc., all have supernatural beliefs, beginning with animism. Perhaps it is specifically because your own is reconstructed that you have chosen to not have any supernatural beliefs?

I look forward to hearing from you.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm actually very aware that religious scholars themselves debate exactly what religion is. Back when I was young and velociraptors roamed the earth, I took a class at the university called "Religion in Literature." We spent an entire lecture discussing what a religion was and wasn't, all the competing ideas. In particular, one definition was that your religion is whatever the "axis" is that your life turns upon.

Hah! Now that you mention I recall that one too from one of the courses on religion I took at university. I also heard it described as "cornerstones" or similarly foundational metaphors. It's an interesting one that was quite useful for me at the time and still has its uses now even though I took strong issue with it at the time.

However, despite the importance of such discussions on the nature of religion, I think it is nevertheless ordinarily true that, at least in English speaking countries, religion necessitates the belief in something supernatural. By supernatural, I mean something that is not bound by the laws of nature.

Therein lies the challenge with how "supernatural" is understood - modern Western culture has for quite some time practiced the mythology or philosophy of dualism - and especially the "Great Wedge" between nature and the gods/spirits - because that's what the Abrahamic religions teach and they took over. But this story is weak to absent and this wedge weak to absent in other cultures around the world - it's weak to absent in any tradition where the gods are immanent (basically most to all polytheistic, indigenous, animistic cultures) as well as in any tradition that is nondualist (a whole bunch of Eastern religion, though I've got way less knowledge about that).

Just speaking to the territory I'm more familiar with, it's not at all uncommon for contemporary Paganisms - in keeping with the polytheisms and animistic framework of our ancestors - to view everything as nature, making the idea of something "above" or "beyond" it a nonstarter. Forcing a dualistic either-or onto these traditions doesn't necessarily make sense for them - it's sort of a square peg round hole situation and to force that square peg in, you have to fundamentally change what it is. You can, I guess, but... the peg was square and once you shave it off into a circle it's no longer what it was.


Which indigenous religion are you reconstructing? Most of the indigenous religions I've looked into, such as Native American spirituality, Druidism, African animism, etc., all have supernatural beliefs, beginning with animism. Perhaps it is specifically because your own is reconstructed that you have chosen to not have any supernatural beliefs?
It is only fairly recently that I've started using the term "indigenous" to describe what I'm doing - but it feels more accurate as a way of conveying that my religious practices emerge directly out of the relationships I build with the land. Not all contemporary Pagans or Druids do this, so it's my hope it adds clarity sometimes. It is a very different way of being religious than, say, the organized religions of the West that come from sacred texts or human authority figures. But that's neither here nor there, probably.

As for supernaturalism, it's kind of funny. With how incredibly broadly you are defining "supernatural" beliefs - based on the examples you gave many of which left me scratching my head even thinking about it from the stereotypical Western dualisms - it's basically impossible for any human not to have supernatural beliefs. Literally all humans will have them, apparently. So... by that measure, sure? I guess? Challenge is, as mentioned above that's jamming a square peg into a round hole. Nuance and details get lost.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Hah! Now that you mention I recall that one too from one of the courses on religion I took at university. I also heard it described as "cornerstones" or similarly foundational metaphors. It's an interesting one that was quite useful for me at the time and still has its uses now even though I took strong issue with it at the time.
Interesting that we can share this experience :)
Therein lies the challenge with how "supernatural" is understood - modern Western culture has for quite some time practiced the mythology or philosophy of dualism - and especially the "Great Wedge" between nature and the gods/spirits - because that's what the Abrahamic religions teach and they took over.
I would suggest that it has little to do with Abrahamic religions (with all due respect to Thomas Aquinas), and a LOT to do with the scientific method coming out of the West. Consider that in the Bible, there is no word for religion. In the Abrahamic religions as they originally existed, the dualism that you speak of didn't really exist. What is a recent development in the west is the idea that the purview of science is those things which can be sensed and measured, which is referred to as the natural world. Anything that doesn't fall into that category is "supernatural."

Yes, I'm aware that there are those, especially outside the west, who think of "everything that exists" as natural. By that definition, even a Creator God not bound by time and space would be considered natural rather than supernatural.
 

idea

Question Everything
Yes, but shared delusions seem to bond stronger than shared rationals.

Shared delusions do not really bond people to one another, but only bond people to the delusion. When I was in the cult, I thought people were bonded - we called one another "brother"/"sister" - but the bonds weren't real, we were not bonded to each other, it was only bonding with the dogma, bonding with the false puppets the dogma turned ppl into.

Strong bonds: family/marriage, trauma bonding - shared experience, shared love for a particular music group, shared love of hiking/reading/gaming/cooking/traveling - finding things in common.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
It's not that I don't think it's a good source, it's that you expect me to go there and read through a long document when you could have more easily just typed name or two that I asked for. It's kind of insulting.

Sorry, I should that said only the first part about the general description of religion.

Okay, here is one defintion of religion from a scholarly source:
Religion is the most intensive and comprehensive method of valuing that is experienced by humankind.

So here is an example of in effect a natural religion in a modern version by the people, who believe in it:
"...
Definitions
Atheism is the comprehensive world view of persons who are free from theism and have freed themselves of supernatural beliefs altogether. It is predicated on ancient Greek Materialism.

Atheism involves the mental attitude that unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent conscious purpose; that it is governed by its own inherent, immutable, and impersonal laws; that there is no supernatural interference in human life; that humankind, finding the resources within themselves, can and must create their own destiny. It teaches that we must prize our life on earth and strive always to improve it. It holds that human beings are capable of creating a social system based on reason and justice. Materialism’s ‘faith’ is in humankind and their ability to transform the world culture by their own efforts. This is a commitment that is, in its very essence, life-asserting. It considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation that is impossible without noble ideas that inspire us to bold, creative works. Materialism holds that our potential for good and more fulfilling cultural development is, for all practical purposes, unlimited."

 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Yes, but shared delusions seem to bond stronger than shared rationals.

Well, the problem is 2 fold. What is as such? But also, how does it matter? You can use reason and logic on what is, but not on how it matters.

With the demand of evidence for everything, what matters is a delusion in all cases, even for the standard non-relgious ones.
In a sense some versions of evidence is a delusion also.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Well, the problem is 2 fold. What is as such? But also, how does it matter? You can use reason and logic on what is, but not on how it matters.

With the demand of evidence for everything, what matters is a delusion in all cases, even for the standard non-relgious ones.
In a sense some versions of evidence is a delusion also.

Yes, but anyone who doesn’t see as I see or believe as I believe, is clearly deluded
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Yes, but anyone who doesn’t see as I see or believe as I believe, is clearly deluded

Yeah, good joke.
Well, I know in an everyday sense for know that I am crazy. But for me that is better as I can cope in some sense, because I know I have to look out for crazy thinking and feelings.
But at least some people deal with life by assumming that they are a special postive and everybody else is a special negative.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Sorry, I should that said only the first part about the general description of religion.

Okay, here is one defintion of religion from a scholarly source:
Religion is the most intensive and comprehensive method of valuing that is experienced by humankind.

So here is an example of in effect a natural religion in a modern version by the people, who believe in it:
"...
Definitions
Atheism is the comprehensive world view of persons who are free from theism and have freed themselves of supernatural beliefs altogether. It is predicated on ancient Greek Materialism.

Atheism involves the mental attitude that unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent conscious purpose; that it is governed by its own inherent, immutable, and impersonal laws; that there is no supernatural interference in human life; that humankind, finding the resources within themselves, can and must create their own destiny. It teaches that we must prize our life on earth and strive always to improve it. It holds that human beings are capable of creating a social system based on reason and justice. Materialism’s ‘faith’ is in humankind and their ability to transform the world culture by their own efforts. This is a commitment that is, in its very essence, life-asserting. It considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation that is impossible without noble ideas that inspire us to bold, creative works. Materialism holds that our potential for good and more fulfilling cultural development is, for all practical purposes, unlimited."

Thank you :) I addressed the problem of defining religion here: Why Does Religion Exist

I'm baffled why you are saying that Atheism is a naturalistic religion. Atheism is not a religion of any sort. Atheism is that absence of any belief in God/gods. Saying that Atheism is a religion is like saying bald is a color of hair.

Materialism is a philosophy. Not a religion.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I'm baffled why you are saying that Atheism is a naturalistic religion. Atheism is not a religion of any sort. Atheism is that absence of any belief in God/gods. Saying that Atheism is a religion is like saying bald is a color of hair.

Materialism is a philosophy. Not a religion.

Well, there is no single version of atheism.

Now something about the verb be for 2 different defintions.
Let us say we are looking at a cat and you say, the cat is black. That, is, is one version. Then there is your claim. Materialism is a philosophy. That is a different version of is.
So you are in effect stateing a cogntive norm for how you understand the words. I understand them differently.
That is it.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I'm baffled why you are saying that Atheism is a naturalistic religion. Atheism is not a religion of any sort. Atheism is that absence of any belief in God/gods. Saying that Atheism is a religion is like saying bald is a color of hair.

Materialism is a philosophy. Not a religion.
The Atheism people themselves deny that Atheism is a faith and or religion, several time in these forums and many of them, one's post is a "winner", please, right?
They, the Atheism, people never make Atheism the target of the same criticism they do of the religions, as I understand, had they done it, they would have know the hollowness of the their ism and or ianity, please, right???

Regards
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Assigning a gender to God is simply a necessity of language. We do the best we can. We simply lack a pronoun that indicates a being is beyond gender. If someone refers to God as he, I have no problem. If they use she or it, I also have no problem.

English has "they" and "it" for genderless pronouns.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
The Atheism people themselves deny that Atheism is a faith and or religion, several time in these forums and many of them, one's post is a "winner", please, right?
They, the Atheism, people never make Atheism the target of the same criticism they do of the religions, as I understand, had they done it, they would have know the hollowness of the their ism and or ianity, please, right???

Regards
Most atheists don't want a religion or even a philosophy to defend, they just don't want what they are offered, and they want to be left alone.
For me, that isn't enough, so my philosophy is Agnosticism. I'm ready to defend it, but neither theists nor atheists have a plan to attack it.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The Atheism people themselves deny that Atheism is a faith and or religion, several time in these forums and many of them, one's post is a "winner", please, right?
They, the Atheism, people never make Atheism the target of the same criticism they do of the religions, as I understand, had they done it, they would have know the hollowness of the their ism and or ianity, please, right???

Regards

There are no the Atheism people. Just as there is no single the Religion people.
There are some atheist who do that, just as some relgious people lie about other humans and don't understand how the world works.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Atheism people
This is horrible English. Fix it.
Atheism people themselves deny that Atheism is a faith and or religion, several time in these forums
Of course. And you should listen, because they are correct.
and many of them, one's post is a "winner", please, right?
I have no idea what you are talking about.
They, the Atheism, people
This is horrible English. Fix it.
They, the Atheism, people never make Atheism the target of the same criticism they do of the religions,
Atheism can be and is certainly criticized -- I have never met an atheist who wasn't willing to have their idea scrutinized. However, the arguments against would have to be different than from religion, because Atheism is not a belief, but the LACK of belief.
as I understand, had they done it, they would have know the hollowness of the their ism and or ianity, please, right???'
This is arrogance and lack of empathy on your part. You are assuming that if ANYONE looks at your evidence honestly, that they will agree with you. That is not how human minds work. There are times when two people look at the identical evidence with an open mind, but reach different conclusions. It's all part of having separate brains. So when others don't see it your way, think of it as a hung jury.

And perhaps in the process, you might realize that you are not really listening to THEIR arguments with an open mind. Do you think you could write a post giving the arguments in favor of atheism? If not, then you haven't really been listening with the intent to understand.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Well, there is no single version of atheism.
There really is. Atheism is the lack of belief in God/gods.

That doesn't mean there aren't different types of atheists. For example, in some cases they are agnostics (a form of soft atheism). In other cases they make the positive statement that there is no God. Some are atheist by default, such as babies or those who have never heard of the concept of God. Some are atheist because they simply don't care to spend time thinking about the issue. Etc. Etc.

 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
There really is. Atheism is the lack of belief in God/gods.

That doesn't mean there aren't different types of atheists. For example, in some cases they are agnostics (a form of soft atheism). In other cases they make the positive statement that there is no God. Some are atheist by default, such as babies or those who have never heard of the concept of God. Some are atheist because they simply don't care to spend time thinking about the issue. Etc. Etc.


No, it is a self-identifying word in part. For the people, that I link to, they have another understanding you or the person you link to.
There is no objective standard of words like that.
 
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