Why doesn't the Bible say what it means?

[PolyHedral]

The Carpenter taught as He did to avoid outright scripture debates..as we do here.

He spoke in metaphors and parables, inherently unclear mediums, to avoid debates over meaning?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

here's a thought
maybe jesus spoke in parables because if he said what he meant, he would be killed...by the romans

I don't think Jesus much cared what the Romans thought of him.

 

[javajo]

We cannot say that we don't know what the Bible said as it could have changed through the years because, in the Dead Sea Scrolls which are 2,000 years old, they found the book of Isaiah from chapter 16 thru 66 and compared it to today's text and it was the same. There were only a few very minor changes that did not change the meaning of the text at all. We also have over 5,000 manuscripts and pieces of the NT, more than any other ancient writing, that date very close to the originals. So, when we read John 3:16, we can take God at his Word:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Thief]

He spoke in metaphors and parables, inherently unclear mediums, to avoid debates over meaning?

Yes...precisely that.

And His disciples questioned Him in private about that very thing.
He told why....see Matthew 13:10

 

[sniper762]

take the subject of "the time jesus spent in the grave".

do we take jesus' word literally from his statement:

1. Matt. 12: 39-40
   39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a asign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
   
   40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be athree days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
   

or do we "assume" that the actual one day and two nights fullfill his prediction?

 

[truseeker]

That is the point exactly. When the Bible is very clear on something ( such as 3 days and 3 night ) people have to find some way to say it was not really that long. Wouldn't it be easier to just believe what it says?

 

[sniper762]

3 days and 3 nights is what jesus predicted BUT did it actually happen?

 

[Penumbra]

Wouldn't it be easier to just believe what it says?

Do you always take the easy path?

I prefer the rigorous and thorough path myself.

 

[waitasec]

So close...but no cigar.

The Romans didn't care about what the people believed...religiously.
I've even heard of the Romans assisting in the build of temples.
A sort of 'public relations' effort.

The Carpenter taught as He did to avoid outright scripture debates..as we do here.

It would not have done anyone any good.

Haven't you noticed how things go on here at the Forum?

why did the romans destroy the temple?
wasn't there a revolt? the romans thought jesus was gathering up revolutionaries to rise against rome.
jesus pussyfooted his way around explaining who he was...

 

[waitasec]

I don't think Jesus much cared what the Romans thought of him.

what does history say about the relations between the jews and the romans?

 

[sniper762]

truthseeker, the problem lies in that some scriptures say one thing, while others say differently.

 

[Thief]

why did the romans destroy the temple?
wasn't there a revolt? the romans thought jesus was gathering up revolutionaries to rise against rome.
jesus pussyfooted his way around explaining who he was...

I don't recall the exact time of the revolt.
I think it happened after His ministry ended.

No doubt,during His ministry, the occasional large crowd would draw attention.
Some crowds lingered for several days.

But dispersement....and the lack of weapons... would not bring action by the Romans.

What brought Him before the Romans as a prisoner was a false accusation..
that He would be king of the Jews.

When asked about His personage...He did the best He could.

 

[smokydot]

take the subject of "the time jesus spent in the grave".
do we take jesus' word literally from his statement:
Matt. 12: 39-40
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a asign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be athree days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
or do we "assume" that the actual one day and two nights fullfill his prediction?

Part of the first day and part of the third day would be three days in the common Jewish reckoning of time.
It's the same as the rising "on the third day" of Mt 16:21; Lk 24:46, 21; 1 Co 15:4.

 

[sniper762]

dont you think that jesus could differenciate between a "part" of a day and "3 days and three nights"? not the same span of time.

 

[waitasec]

I don't recall the exact time of the revolt.
I think it happened after His ministry ended.

70 AD around the time the gospel of mark was written which is also up for debate as to being the 1st gospel written

No doubt,during His ministry, the occasional large crowd would draw attention.
Some crowds lingered for several days.

But dispersement....and the lack of weapons... would not bring action by the Romans.

What brought Him before the Romans as a prisoner was a false accusation..
that He would be king of the Jews.

When asked about His personage...He did the best He could.

a revolt was exactly what the romans were trying to avoid.
when asked who he was, he was wise to never to describe himself as one who is higher than caesar ... otherwise his life would be cut short.

 

[Etritonakin]

wouldn't you think everyone would after the 1st death
so what's the point?

Excellent question.

I don't know if everyone WILL repent after the first death -but I hope they do. One might think seeing God would do it, but some may have issues with God regardless (I'm not saying they would be in the right, but that which is contrary to God doesn't make sense, anyway). Satan has conversations with God, yet still resists him.

The point is doing everything possible to allow all to live forever -and in a certain order.

Contrary to popular belief, God has not called many throughout history. Some believe that those who are not "saved" before they die are doomed -that we either go to heaven or hell -end of story. This isn't what the bible states.

Those called from Adam until the return of Christ -who answer by increasingly obeying God's commandments, etc. -are called FIRSTFRUITS (James 1:18, Rev 14:4). They are groomed, so to speak, to reign with Christ as kings and priests on earth during the millenium (and beyond -Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.)

The rest of the dead -all who have ever lived from Adam -will be resurrected after the thousand years -to the judgment -and judged according to their works (not whether or not they knew about God). Some have done good works never having heard of God -and will fare well.
.....and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.........

We must all choose, but perhaps God knows what it will take for each of us to choose correctly. The following is very hopeful...

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be madealive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

[waitasec]

Excellent question.

I don't know if everyone WILL repent after the first death -but I hope they do. One might think seeing God would do it, but some may have issues with God regardless (I'm not saying they would be in the right, but that which is contrary to God doesn't make sense, anyway). Satan has conversations with God, yet still resists him.

The point is doing everything possible to allow all to live forever -and in a certain order.

Contrary to popular belief, God has not called many throughout history. Some believe that those who are not "saved" before they die are doomed -that we either go to heaven or hell -end of story. This isn't what the bible states.

Those called from Adam until the return of Christ -who answer by increasingly obeying God's commandments, etc. -are called FIRSTFRUITS (James 1:18, Rev 14:4). They are groomed, so to speak, to reign with Christ as kings and priests on earth during the millenium (and beyond -Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.)

The rest of the dead -all who have ever lived from Adam -will be resurrected after the thousand years -to the judgment -and judged according to their works (not whether or not they knew about God). Some have done good works never having heard of God -and will fare well.
.....and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.........

We must all choose, but perhaps God knows what it will take for each of us to choose correctly. The following is very hopeful...

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be madealive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

all right so you live your life and die then wake up with the realization that you have a choice to make...hell or heaven?
this isn't a choice, is it? it is a threat.
and how would you keep your dignity by making a choice like that? you wouldn't consider it a choice but a threat.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

i just don't understand why the need for mystery?

well, it is logical to ask why mystery. Why need for putting some mysteries in a Book so, no one can understand?

The laws that are in Bible are not parables and mysteries. Neither they are spiritual teachings. They were for bringing order to the society of the old times.
The prophets that were inspired by God, adapted some laws and orders to improve what people were practicing in their age.
The revelations of God are gradual and by sending guidance to people in every age, they made gradual improvement in the world.
According to Bible there were supposed to come 7 revelations, until the humanity reaches to certain level of perfection.

So, for this age, Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah brought the latest laws and teachings.

in Bible, the mysteries were written in parable, and they are mostly related to prophesize the revelations after Christianity and because of wisdom of God, they were said in a mysterious way as to keep their time of coming as secret(for many reasons).
And certain part of Bible are spiritual realities, such as raise of Christ after crucifiction, which we believe it was a spiritual reality and not a physical.

thou shall not....
but yet things like genocide, rape, slavery were ok?
why not include those obvious atrocities?
murder and stealing were in a grey area just as long it wasn't your neighbor you were killing because you coveted your neighbors wife and other property...

I don't believe any of these such as slavery was ever ok in the sight of God and His prophets from beginning.

But humanity needed to reach that level of understanding gradually through revelations of God. So, for this age Baha'u'llah prohibited slavery in His Book of Laws:

"It is forbidden you to trade in slaves, be they men or women. It is not for him who is himself a servant to buy another of God’s servants, and this hath been prohibited in His Holy Tablet. Thus, by His mercy, hath the commandment been recorded by the Pen of justice. Let no man exalt himself above another; all are but bondslaves before the Lord, and all exemplify the truth that there is none other God but Him. He, verily, is the All-Wise, Whose wisdom encompasseth all things. " Baha'u'llah - The most Holy Book.

and regarding war and things like that:

"The first Glad-Tidings which the Mother Book hath, in this Most Great Revelation, imparted unto all the peoples of the world is that the law of holy war hath been blotted out from the Book. Glorified be the All-Merciful, the Lord of grace abounding, through Whom the door of heavenly bounty hath been flung open in the face of all that are in heaven and on earth.
The second Glad-Tidings​

It is permitted that the peoples and kindreds of the world associate with one another with joy and radiance. O people! Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. Thus hath the day-star of His sanction and authority shone forth above the horizon of the decree of God, the Lord of the worlds. ..." Baha'u'llah - tablet of Glad tidings

 

[waitasec]

]The laws that are in Bible are not parables and mysteries. Neither they are spiritual teachings. They were for bringing order to the society of the old times.[/FONT][/COLOR]

i still don't understand that line of thinking. rape, slavery and genocide brought order to society? i guess that would be true if you were referring to an evil dictatorship.

The prophets that were inspired by God, adapted some laws and orders to improve what people were practicing in their age.

right. like killing off an entire nation but let the little girls live for raping...

The revelations of God are gradual and by sending guidance to people in every age, they made gradual improvement in the world.
According to Bible there were supposed to come 7 revelations, until the humanity reaches to certain level of perfection.

in the meantime, you can beat your slave and sell their children

I don't believe any of these such as slavery was ever ok in the sight of God and His prophets from beginning.

that's why god never said anything about it...

But humanity needed to reach that level of understanding gradually through revelations of God. So, for this age Baha'u'llah prohibited slavery in His Book of Laws:

it seems as though these people are not considered to be human back then more like cattle.

"It is forbidden you to trade in slaves, be they men or women. It is not for him who is himself a servant to buy another of God’s servants, and this hath been prohibited in His Holy Tablet. Thus, by His mercy, hath the commandment been recorded by the Pen of justice. Let no man exalt himself above another; all are but bondslaves before the Lord, and all exemplify the truth that there is none other God but Him. He, verily, is the All-Wise, Whose wisdom encompasseth all things. " Baha'u'llah - The most Holy Book.

i'm sorry, are we talking about the god of abraham?

 

[Quagmire]

That is the point exactly. When the Bible is very clear on something ( such as 3 days and 3 night ) people have to find some way to say it was not really that long. Wouldn't it be easier to just believe what it says?

And we should always go with the easier way, right?

Saves us from having to do any of that nasty and painful "thinking" business.