Why doesn't the Bible say what it means?

[truseeker]

What does thinking have to do with it? It takes more thinking to come up with a reason why 3 days and 3 nights does NOT really mean 3 days and 3 nights but just part of 3 days and nights.

 

[waitasec]

What does thinking have to do with it? It takes more thinking to come up with a reason why 3 days and 3 nights does NOT really mean 3 days and 3 nights but just part of 3 days and nights.

really? one just has to believe what the bible says without thinking about it.
was jesus crucified on passover or on the day of preparation?
in john he was crucified on passover in order to fulfill the propaganda the author was selling...John 19:14
but Mark 15:25 he was crucified on passover

in mathew 2:11 wise men go to worship in jesus' house, not a manger like it is mentioned in luke.
historically there is no account of the slaughtering of baby boys and no records of caesar ordering a census either.
if the account of jesus birth was during herod’s reign and that it happened during the time quirinius was gov. of syria, than luke’s account cannot be right.
roman historian tacitus and josephus say that quirinius did not become gov. of syria until 10 years after the death of herod

really. we don't need to think about or question these discrepancies?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Part of the first day and part of the third day would be three days in the common Jewish reckoning of time.
It's the same as the rising "on the third day" of Mt 16:21; Lk 24:46, 21; 1 Co 15:4.

"in the common Jewish reckoning of time".. what a sloppy and often abused phrase especially when applied in the context of this discussion.

We learn from Moses going up on the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights that part of the day is NOT counted. The people who worshiped the golden calf were only a day off.... He ascended the mountain during the day..and since the Jewish calendar day starts at night, that first day should not have been counted as a day.

If someone says they're going away for three days and three nights... you should expect them back on the fourth night (because, "in the common Jewish reckoning of time, the calendar day begins at sundown (night) ).

 

[rusra02]

really? one just has to believe what the bible says without thinking about it.
was jesus crucified on passover or on the day of preparation?
in john he was crucified on passover in order to fulfill the propaganda the author was selling...John 19:14
but Mark 15:25 he was crucified on passover

in mathew 2:11 wise men go to worship in jesus' house, not a manger like it is mentioned in luke.
historically there is no account of the slaughtering of baby boys and no records of caesar ordering a census either.
if the account of jesus birth was during herod’s reign and that it happened during the time quirinius was gov. of syria, than luke’s account cannot be right.
roman historian tacitus and josephus say that quirinius did not become gov. of syria until 10 years after the death of herod

really. we don't need to think about or question these discrepancies?

Luke doesn't mention wise men going to a manger, as you stated.
The Bible is a historical account of the census and Josephus mentions such a census. The Bible is a historical record of the slaughter of these infant boys.

You are also incorrect about Herod not being alive while quirinius was governor.

Now in those days a decree went forth from Caesar Augustus for all the inhabited earth to be registered; (this first registration took place when Quirinius was governor of Syria and all people went traveling to be registered, each one to his own city.”—Luke 1:1; 2:1-3. Critics like you ignore two key facts. First, Luke says that there was more than one census—note that he refers to “this first registration.” He was well aware of another, later registration. (Acts 5:37) This later census is the same one that the historian Josephus described, which occurred in 6 C.E. Second, the governorship of Quirinius does not force us to assign Jesus’ birth to that late date. Why? Because Quirinius evidently served in that post twice. Many scholars recognize that his first term fell about 2 B.C.E (while Herod the Great was still living). (W98 12/15 p.7)​

 

[Poisonshady313]

That is the point exactly. When the Bible is very clear on something ( such as 3 days and 3 night ) people have to find some way to say it was not really that long. Wouldn't it be easier to just believe what it says?

There's a difference between "three days and three nights" and "on the third day".

A metaphor.

A bunch of guys are hanging out at someone's house, watching a baseball game. Just before the game starts, someone notices there's no beer left... so one guy volunteers to go make a beer run, but under one condition. "I'll go after three innings".

Every inning has a top and a bottom. If this guy leaves during the top of the third, it would be said that he left after two innings. If this guy leaves during the bottom of the third, it would be said that he left after two and a half innings.

In order for this guy to avoid being a liar, he would have to go anywhere between the end of the third inning and the end of the top of the fourth.


Now, if he said "I'll head out some time during the third", he could have left during the top of the third, or during the bottom of the third, (or even between the top and bottom of the third) and he would not have been a liar.

And now you know the difference between "three days and three nights" and "third day"

 

[sniper762]

agreed, poison

 

[waitasec]

The Bible is a historical account of the census and Josephus mentions such a census. The Bible is a historical record of the slaughter of these infant boys.

there is no other historical documents to support this claim.
which would make it's claim more unlikely

You are also incorrect about Herod not being alive while quirinius was governor.

Now in those days a decree went forth from Caesar Augustus for all the inhabited earth to be registered; (this first registration took place when Quirinius was governor of Syria and all people went traveling to be registered, each one to his own city.”—Luke 1:1; 2:1-3. Critics like you ignore two key facts. First, Luke says that there was more than one census—note that he refers to “this first registration.” He was well aware of another, later registration. (Acts 5:37) This later census is the same one that the historian Josephus described, which occurred in 6 C.E. Second, the governorship of Quirinius does not force us to assign Jesus’ birth to that late date. Why? Because Quirinius evidently served in that post twice. Many scholars recognize that his first term fell about 2 B.C.E (while Herod the Great was still living). (W98 12/15 p.7)​

adding "the first registration" is no different then the gospel of john contradiction of when jesus was crucified in mark.

 

[crimsonlung]

There's a difference between "three days and three nights" and "on the third day".

A metaphor.

A bunch of guys are hanging out at someone's house, watching a baseball game. Just before the game starts, someone notices there's no beer left... so one guy volunteers to go make a beer run, but under one condition. "I'll go after three innings".

Every inning has a top and a bottom. If this guy leaves during the top of the third, it would be said that he left after two innings. If this guy leaves during the bottom of the third, it would be said that he left after two and a half innings.

In order for this guy to avoid being a liar, he would have to go anywhere between the end of the third inning and the end of the top of the fourth.


Now, if he said "I'll head out some time during the third", he could have left during the top of the third, or during the bottom of the third, (or even between the top and bottom of the third) and he would not have been a liar.

And now you know the difference between "three days and three nights" and "third day"

But was this developed English structure present 2000 years ago?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

i still don't understand that line of thinking. rape, slavery and genocide brought order to society? i guess that would be true if you were referring to an evil dictatorship.

I understand it as, the slavery were already there in the lands. I see it as due to wars people became slaves. I don't see it as the idea of slavery came from teachings of the prophets.

right. like killing off an entire nation but let the little girls live for raping...

I don't think Bible has really so much details in terms of history.
I am not sure which verses in the Bible allows raping???
As far as I know, even for a regular relation between men and women, it teaches marriage.

i'm sorry, are we talking about the god of abraham?

yes. Bible also prophesized that new religion and laws would come in the future Age.
But the differences in laws could be seen to be related to time exigencies.
also, some messages could have been the same, but people throughout the generations, could have distorted the message of prophets, and now they look different.

 

[Etritonakin]

all right so you live your life and die then wake up with the realization that you have a choice to make...hell or heaven?
this isn't a choice, is it? it is a threat.
and how would you keep your dignity by making a choice like that? you wouldn't consider it a choice but a threat.

That's far too simplistic -and not very accurate. If you are really interested in the subject, researching it -in the bible -is the best way to go. Still, it's difficult to read without being affected by preconceptions.

For those who have done good works, but never heard of God, for example -a simple explanation might be all that's necessary. Such would probably understand that law is necessary for peace, and see at that point that God is the authority -wants them to live forever -and that his laws are necessary for peace. It is not simply a choice, but an education process. God will educate in his ways.

While it is true that some may see such as a threat, those who choose to disobey God even then are the real threat to those who are willing to obey -as God's laws are the foundation of peace.

"Hell" destroys that which threatens peace and happiness. It is not a threat, but a necessity.

If you see it as a threat, you do not see it correctly -and it's no wonder so many see it incorrectly with all of the misinformation and skewed perspectives being passed on. If you choose to oppose God, you are a threat to those who choose to live peacefully.

There is great dignity in righteousness. What dignity is there in choosing that which threatens peace, and excludes you from eternal life, based on misguided pride?

God -wisely -will not allow us to continually subdivide the universe eternally into opposing groups based on falsehoods -as we do here on earth.

He will teach us from his perspective -and we will agree.

If we still oppose, we will be taken out of the equation.

But ....THERE IS NO GOOD REASON TO OPPOSE.

 

[Poisonshady313]

But was this developed English structure present 2000 years ago?

Obviously not... but the concept of the passage of time sure was... as was the concept of what constitutes a day.

God called to the light: "Day" and to the darkness He called: "Night." And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Genesis 1:5

If you'd like, I can take the time to consult with a friend of mine who is a scholar of biblical hebrew and have him explain to you the scriptural examples of "three days and three nights" and "third day"

 

[waitasec]

I understand it as, the slavery were already there in the lands. I see it as due to wars people became slaves. I don't see it as the idea of slavery came from teachings of the prophets.

so was murder and stealing, but god forgot to include genocide, slavery,
rape and child abuse?

I don't think Bible has really so much details in terms of history.
I am not sure which verses in the Bible allows raping???
As far as I know, even for a regular relation between men and women, it teaches marriage.

marriage:
gen 3:16
"he shall rule over you"

rape:
if a girl is pledged the rapist is murdered, because she is the property of another man; if the girl was not pledged he pays her father 50 pieces of silver and has to marry the victim without ever divorcing her...
what about thou shall not rape and any rape victim shouldn't be considered "dirty"...

duet 22:25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

new religion and laws would come in the future Age.
But the differences in laws could be seen to be related to time exigencies.
also, some messages could have been the same, but people throughout the generations, could have distorted the message of prophets, and now they look different.

the enlightenment had nothing to do with religion.
human rights was not a result of religion...in fact, human rights are suppressed with religion.

 

[waitasec]

That's far too simplistic -and not very accurate. If you are really interested in the subject, researching it -in the bible -is the best way to go. Still, it's difficult to read without being affected by preconceptions.

For those who have done good works, but never heard of God, for example -a simple explanation might be all that's necessary. Such would probably understand that law is necessary for peace, and see at that point that God is the authority -wants them to live forever -and that his laws are necessary for peace. It is not simply a choice, but an education process. God will educate in his ways.

While it is true that some may see such as a threat, those who choose to disobey God even then are the real threat to those who are willing to obey -as God's laws are the foundation of peace.

"Hell" destroys that which threatens peace and happiness. It is not a threat, but a necessity.

If you see it as a threat, you do not see it correctly -and it's no wonder so many see it incorrectly with all of the misinformation and skewed perspectives being passed on. If you choose to oppose God, you are a threat to those who choose to live peacefully.

There is great dignity in righteousness. What dignity is there in choosing that which threatens peace, and excludes you from eternal life, based on misguided pride?

God -wisely -will not allow us to continually subdivide the universe eternally into opposing groups based on falsehoods -as we do here on earth.

He will teach us from his perspective -and we will agree.

If we still oppose, we will be taken out of the equation.

But ....THERE IS NO GOOD REASON TO OPPOSE.

the reason to oppose is freedom of will. god's nemesis.
you see it from the very beginning. as soon as we think for ourselves it is when we rebel against god.

if god wanted us to live forever, we would.
it doesn't matter how good you are as a person. you will never be good enough unless god lives through you vicariously. can you imagine saying that to your child? 'honey, no matter how hard you try, you won't make me happy and i won't help you unless you want to become like me'

 

[Etritonakin]

The problem with freedom of will is that some use their freedom of will to take away the freedom of will of others.

You accuse God of this falsely. His laws exist to allow everyone to express their will through creativity without fear. He will soon directly enforce those laws himself -and has not thus far so that we might see the end of our ways. They are not so apparent now, but the world is about to be very different. It is about to get much worse before he makes it much better. We complain that he does not allow us free will, but that is exactly what he is doing in allowing us to see that it only leads to self-annihilation. He respects you enough to allow you to nearly destroy yourself if you choose to act in ignorance -and loves you enough to stop you before you actually do!

God's laws exist to put free will in its proper perspective and place.
God did not give us free will, as such -he gave us creativity and a choice between life and death.
Rebelling against God PRODUCES death. His laws PROTECT life -and the quality thereof.

Since our free will can be turned to harm others and rob them of the freedom to be creative without harm, law is necessary.

Hitler was using his free will. So was Manson. Get it?

You can choose to rebel against God, but God can choose to not give you eternal life -because he knows that we must all agree on the principles which allow for infinite creativity without conflict. He makes laws based on those principles -which are derived from the nature of ourselves and our environment (which he designed and knows completely).

Surely you would not rob God of HIS free will!

Do parents rob their children of free will for good purpose? Should they let their kids do everything they want?

 

[PolyHedral]

He respects you enough to allow you to nearly destroy yourself if you choose to act in ignorance -and loves you enough to stop you before you actually do!

No, he doesn't.

 

[waitasec]

The problem with freedom of will is that some use their freedom of will to take away the freedom of will of others.

that would be the standard, wouldn't it?
why did god not point that out as a standard?

You accuse God of this falsely. His laws exist to allow everyone to express their will through creativity without fear.

tell me where in the bible it says that. fear is the only tool god has.

He will soon directly enforce those laws himself -and has not thus far so that we might see the end of our ways. They are not so apparent now, but the world is about to be very different. It is about to get much worse before he makes it much better. We complain that he does not allow us free will, but that is exactly what he is doing in allowing us to see that it only leads to self-annihilation. He respects you enough to allow you to nearly destroy yourself if you choose to act in ignorance -and loves you enough to stop you before you actually do!

had god implemented a standard rather than taking sides with one tribe over another for a little piece of land and how we are to worship him...maybe things would be better...

God's laws exist to put free will in its proper perspective and place.

proper perspective....the only perspective i have is my own. i reason and i learn through experience. i gain knowledge by doing and contemplating from previous experiences and through the experiences of others. this proper perspective is to suppress, believe blindly and be told what to do without understanding the implication of being subjected when in fact we are free thinking beings. it's place is entwined with our very being, however, with god it is an eye sore.

God did not give us free will, as such -he gave us creativity and a choice between life and death.
Rebelling against God PRODUCES death. His laws PROTECT life -and the quality thereof.

wait. didn't you say

His laws exist to allow everyone to express their will through creativity without fear

there is no freedom in fear. this ultimatum sets up the the rejection of this final proposition as an end to the hesitation because it's really a threat, isn't it?

Since our free will can be turned to harm others and rob them of the freedom to be creative without harm, law is necessary.

Hitler was using his free will. So was Manson. Get it?

laws are necessary. without god we had the enlightenment. something god forgot to put in his commandments inside your little book of morals.
it is sheer common decency that keeps people in line with one another, hitler and stalin and manson were sociopaths...is your world mostly filled with sociopaths?

You can choose to rebel against God, but God can choose to not give you eternal life

is that another threat? where is the peace of god?

because he knows that we must all agree on the principles which allow for infinite creativity without conflict. He makes laws based on those principles -which are derived from the nature of ourselves and our environment (which he designed and knows completely).

as i have stated before, had he implemented the standard in your bible i wouldn't say a thing. but since it is not there, god overlooked this crucial point only because he's too preoccupied with how his creation should worship him...

Do parents rob their children of free will for good? Should they let their kids do everything they want?

parents guide, protect and nurture their children's individuality. parents teach children from the lesson of their own mistakes and hopefully the children will take those lessons to heart, surely a parent cannot keep a child from their own will. it is after all a part of who they are. frankly, if a child did everything they were supposed to do and always obeyed, i would think there is something very wrong with that child. i suppose that's the kind of children god wants, submissive and subservient.

 

[Etritonakin]

No, he doesn't.

I am a Jew. I am well aware of the holocaust.

The holocaust is an extension of the relationship between God, Israel and the Assyrians (some of whom eventually migrated to Germany -we know them better as Aryan/Nazi). God calls the Assyrian the rod of his anger. God is also about to exert his will to send the Assyrian against even the U.S. and others -even though it was not originally the will of the Assyrian.

EU Army

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

God gave Israel a choice long ago -he set before them life and death, blessing annd cursing. While it is true that God, by his will, brings both blessing and some of the curses, he brings the curses in order to expedite what would happen anyway.

In the case of our destroying all life on earth, however -this is our choice -our will -not his. Still, it will be the choice of only some humans to "destroy the earth" -not all. This only serves to underscore the need for his rule -and for him to enforce peace.

God gave Israel a choice, and they continually rejected him. God knew this pattern would continue with any other nation. So, he is allowing us to rule ourselves -with some necessary exceptions -until we, as a species, live the inevitable ultimate lesson.

The holocaust pales in comparison to what God will allow -and even cause -the Assyrian (Nazis over Germany over the E.U.) to do in the near future...
which may seem harsh, but it is far less harsh than leaving us completely to ourselves. This is not easy to understand or apparent to many, but it is nonetheless true.

The end of the Assyrian will be as follows....

Isa 10:24 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.
Isa 10:25 For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.

Isa 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
Isa 14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

...and God will once again bless Judah and all of Israel -and resurrect all who have fallen by the sword which God said would overtaken them if they rejected him.
Man would destroy himself anyway -but God is guiding the situation for our benefit -though the lessons are necessarily stark.

Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.

Isa 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
Isa 40:2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

God is making us into something (gods). Our being born as humans is only one step in the process -the things we are experiencing are also a necessary part of the process of making gods. They have a necessary effect on our psyche and character.

You can disbelieve or disagree -but not rightly. This will all happen nonetheless.
God is called the rock because he will not be moved -nor should he be! He knows what he is doing. In order for him to give us what we truly desire, we must first realize that it comes by obeying him -and that he has been trying to give it to us all along -and we have rejected it.

Hag 2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.
Hag 2:8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.
Hag 2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[Etritonakin]

that would be the standard, wouldn't it?
why did god not point that out as a standard?

He did -by the commandments (and subsequent judgments) -essentially (I'm paraphrasing)... thou shalt not use thy free will to do harm to God or neighbor, but rather use thy will to choose to love God and neighbor -as outlined in the commandments. If thou dost not kill thy neighbor, steal his stuff, mac on his woman, etc...thy time shall be free to create wonderful things.

proper perspective....the only perspective i have is my own. i reason and i learn through experience. i gain knowledge by doing and contemplating from previous experiences and through the experiences of others. this proper perspective is to suppress......

No. You say you learn from others, but you refuse to learn from a being which has infinitely more knowledge of everything than yourself -and is trying to save you much pain and sorrow (even by bringing it prematurely and in a lesser quantity -much like a vaccination).

By your free will, you will either destroy yourself or inevitably conclude that every last thing God has been saying and doing is correct and necessary.
You are a few years old in a very ancient universe -telling an even more ancient being he doesn't know what he's talking about!

So -you will now learn that he does. Go on with yer bad self! Go out and learn! Make your choices -experience the results! How has he stopped you, personally, thus far?

1Th 5:21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

I understand your questions, but it is as if you are looking at a pile of parts expecting to see a finished product. Sometimes a great project looks like a confounded mess before it's finished. Everything cannot be accomplished at once. You say God this and God that, and neglect to realize that all our wills must be in concert to avoid disaster -and all must choose so -or expect that God could cause this without allowing us experience -or against our will. It is the fact that we were given creativity -and so choice -which prevents it from happening immediately. God DID set the standard initially -WE scoffed at it and WE rejected it. Now we are experience the fruit thereof, and will realize he was right all long. It's a process.

God's LAST tool is fear -but to produce the fear to do evil because it produces more evil. He has used many others with great success -but some have refused all else.

You can opt out if you want -you can use your free will to not live forever -but there is absolutely no good reason to do so!

 

[waitasec]

god might as well have said
"about 40% of your entire population will be killed off. i know this will happen and how it will happen and because i am a just and merciful god i will let this happen"
ah, ok whatever you say....oh merciful and just god.

 

[waitasec]

He did -by the commandments (and subsequent judgments) -essentially (I'm paraphrasing)... thou shalt not use thy free will to do harm to God or neighbor, but rather use thy will to choose to love God and neighbor -as outlined in the commandments. If thou dost not kill thy neighbor, steal his stuff, mac on his woman, etc...thy time shall be free to create wonderful things.

where? where does it say emphatically no one is to dominate another. no one is better than the other or that all my children man and women are equal in my eyes

No. You say you learn from others, but you refuse to learn from a being which has infinitely more knowledge of everything than yourself -and is trying to save you much pain and sorrow (even by bringing it prematurely and in a lesser quantity -much like a vaccination).

this myth? no empirical or practical evidence of such a being...

By your free will, you will either destroy yourself or inevitably conclude that every last thing God has been saying and doing is correct and necessary.

there is no god. god was created in the image of narcissistic men.

You are a few years old in a very ancient universe -telling an even more ancient being he doesn't know what he's talking about!

and you are not? how can you know more than i can? all faith of this kind does is to presume without question. a highly illogical course of action from my perspective. when making a tough choice in life, do you take into consideration every angle? or do you decide on instinct alone?

So -you will now learn that he does. Go on with yer bad self! Go out and learn! Make your choices -experience the results! How has he stopped you thus far?

1Th 5:21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

do you consider integrity, being honest with yourself, and dignity to be bad?