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Why don't Republicans see this?

KW

Well-Known Member
So you disagree with many MAGAs that Pence could have rejected the certified vote counts from the seven states that Guiliani said were fraud?


OK, what evidence is there that Democrats cheated? Bill Barr said it was a fair election. Trump's own election official said it was a secure election. I've seen zero evidence presented by the many Republicans I've seen interviewed. So do you know something they don't, or are you listening to right wing disinformation? You've been corrected on numerous errors already and you have a bad habit doing this.


Like I said, what evidence? And you are aware that both Trump and D'Sousa are chronic liars, don't you? That doesn't enter your mind?


It is revealing a huge criminal conspiracy among Trump and coconspirators, namely Eastman and Guiliani, among others. There was testimony that the Proud Boys would have killed Pence is he was caught. Rioters were within 40 feet of Pence before he was led to safety. Do you consider this a minor threat? Your judgment continues to be biased and poor.


Well the crimes vary and there was a conspiracy against the USA and congress that carry serious penalties. If the rioters and conspirators don't want to be held accountable they shouldn't have done the crimes. Are you against them being held to the fullest extend of the law because they are your tribe members? Why should they be let off the hook? This was a serious set of events and crimes.


False. And this is an irrelevant attempt at deflection.


False, Trump lost because he did a terrible job at managing the pandemic. He lied over and over, and avoided setting any nation policies for public safety. He constantly insulted public health experts. Democrats and even enough Republicans know he was a terrible president. He lost by over 7 million votes.


He did no such thing. The deep state is a conspiracy theory. There is no such thing. More right wing disinformation.


There is ample evidence Democrats cheated. Watch 2000 Mules.

Look at the statistical data. Look how they changed the voting rules illegally in Pennsylvania. The evidence is there for anyone who is looking for the truth. Those who hate Trump don't care about the evidence.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
There is ample evidence Democrats cheated. Watch 2000 Mules.
If this is so reputable why aren't Republicans bringing it up when they are interviewed?

Edit: So this is why people are not referring to this disinformation. Its D'Sousa, and he is a fraud and a liar. But you believe it? Why?

17 Michigan lawmakers want AG to investigate debunked “2000 Mules” claims

Look at the statistical data. Look how they changed the voting rules illegally in Pennsylvania.
They changed the rules due to the pandemic, as many other states did. This in no way meant there was voter fraud. It only changed how the citizens voted. So this issue is more about procedure, not about any fraud. Do you think it is cheating to allow more citizens to vote, and vote easily?

The evidence is there for anyone who is looking for the truth.
Yet you only bring up two dubious claims. If this was so overwhelming why aren't you posting it?

Those who hate Trump don't care about the evidence.
False. If there was actual evidence you would present it. The two things above are not adequate to back up your claims of cheating.

And do you like Trump? Do you accept his corruption and actual election fraud activity? Do you think it's proper for a president to commit election fraud?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Of course not. I think think Democrats cheated, but Trump needed to accept the result. I think that Trump and Dinesh are helping make this harder to achieve in the future though. The truth is coming out and Democrats are doing all they can to hide it.

This attention on the protest is a waste of taxpayer money. I think those involved should be charged with minor crimes and/or fines then released. It is so hypocritical that for months antifa and BLM protestors did far more damage and actually killed people but for the most part were left alone by the federal authorities. It shows what hypocrites Democrats are.

This is pure politics. Democrats are trying to prevent Trump from running again because they know he did a great job in office. He exposed the leftist deep state and the corruption in our bureaucracy.
Why on Earth would you have such a belief? It makes one look rather gullible to say the least. There does not appear to be any credible evidence for that nonsense.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The issue is whether the Constitution has power and authority. If laws have authority. The Jan 6 committee says yes. Trump and the MAGA crowd say no. This is the Alamo, the line is drawn in the dirt. This is serious. Which side are you on? Let's hope more join the fight for democracy. Many of my friends just don't care and I am flaberghasted.

Laws do not have authority. Laws are just words written on a piece of paper. It's the politicians and judges who are empowered to enforce those laws and interpret the Constitution. Most of the time (if Supreme Court split decisions are anything to go by), they can't seem to agree on what the law actually is or what the Constitution actually says. A judge is nothing more than a law student who grades his own papers. One lawyer's opinion is as good as the next. The only thing that makes any real difference is the raw power that comes out of the end of a gun.

As for which side I'm on, as a socialist, I'm on the side with the common people against wealthy capitalists, who are equally worshiped by Democrats and Republicans alike. That's why I see no difference between the two parties, nor am I fooled by any platitudes or propaganda about "democracy" or any alleged "egregious attacks" on that imaginary concept.

All I see happening now is something akin to Don Barzini desperately trying to convince me that Don Corleone is a bad man. I'm not buying into it, and I would not fight for either of them.

You say you're flabbergasted that your friends don't seem to care, but maybe they read this situation differently from you. If people have a cynical attitude towards the state and the processes of governments (politicians and lawyers), then perhaps a better strategy would be to try to understand why.

How many times have you heard Democrats criticized because they are soft, they just roll over, they don't play hardball like Republicans, etc.? Now they are finally standing up, and they are responding to Trump and his conspirators crossing the legal line WAY too far. This wasn't an accident, or some guy who didn't read the rule book and made mistakes. This is a guy who was president and used his power and influence in corrupt ways against the USA. And he is still trying. And he is succeeding to some degree.

Just want Democrats to roll over like a puppy to get his belly scratched only for Republicans to kick him in the gut? This is what we are dealing with. These aren't ethical people who will become ethical when they attain power. They believe they are entitled to power and will use their power any way they seem fit once they get it.

My criticisms of Democrats is that they've been too soft and too friendly towards capitalists. They sold out to organized crime, they sold out to Reagan/Bush, they sold out to the warmongers, they sold out to Corporate America and the Hollywood elite. They sold out to Big Pharma and corporate healthcare.

As I said, I have no illusions about power or politics. It is what it is. It's just that, every once in a while, I might expect that they actually would do something for the common people.

I never said they had to roll over like a puppy to the Republicans. In fact, I really wish they would stop doing things like that. All I'm really saying here is that they should focus more on the needs of the people. That would do far more at taking the wind out of the sails of the MAGA ship than what they're doing now. If they're trying to flex their muscle and show us how powerful they are, so be it. But if they really have this kind of muscle, then they could be using it to help the people, not wasting it on a personal vendetta against a former President who no longer has any power and whose influence is waning.

If the limousine liberals want the common people to fight on their behalf, then there's one thing they can do: Show them the money.

It's time for the wealthiest 1% to pay back what they have stolen from the 99%, and if they are unwilling or unable to do this, then I fear that this country is in very, very deep trouble. If the Democrats can't get onboard with this idea, then they're only a part of the problem - every bit as much (if not more so) as the Republicans.

I've had my life threatened a few times on Facebook just for advocating for gun safety. I avoid debates on FB now due to the lack of privacy. These far right people believe they are right, and will not compromise. they have no problems threatening people, and may even act. This is the conservative voting base, and they will support candidates like them.

Yes, I understand that all too well. I've lived in America all my life, so I know full well the kind of people we're talking about here. They've been my neighbors, co-workers, relatives - although I can't count them among my friends. Based on my long experience, observation, and interactions with them, I think I have a pretty fair idea as to what makes them tick. I know where they come from and what has influenced their ways of thinking. A lot of liberals and leftists also come from the same place as the conservatives. They're not really as different from each other as they might think, especially if they come from the same common culture and socioeconomic class.

I also like to think that I have a pretty fair grasp of history and the political etymology behind today's differing factions and ideologies. Some of what we're seeing now has happened before - but it's been a long time. Part of what has kept the masses pacified is that, for the most part, their bellies have been full and they've done relatively well compared to most other countries in the world.

What we're dealing with here are two diametrically opposed perceptions of America.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
i think the law is the best way to respond because it's not political and not personal. If a person commits crimes, and there is evidence of these crimes, and they are indicted and convicted, this is due process.

Politicians make the laws, so therefore the law is political. Laws are interpreted by judges, who are also politicians, but just because they wear black robes, people buy into the illusion that they're not political.

In any case, most of the time, the law and the legal processes you're referring to happen inside courtrooms. They don't have a congressional hearing for every crime that's prosecuted. The legal processes can still be carried out transparently without so much drama or fanfare, which are designed to evoke an emotional response, not a rational one.

The kind of rhetoric I'm seeing associated with this process also makes me think that there is an emotional motivation at work, which makes it personal. It's not simply objective, dispassionate blind justice. I get the feeling that some people are really, really mad at Trump and want to get him really badly. They want the whole country to hate Trump just as much as they do. Their message is coming through loud and clear. I assure you I haven't missed it.

I think Trump's lawyers will advise him to tell his supporters to behave themselves. If they create more violence and mayhem it only makes Trump look more like a villain that poses a threat to order. The militias are getting arrested. The followers have social media to organize but they are learning the FBI is watching.

It may not be that easy, though. After all, we can also expect anti-Trump protesters as well, and there may likely be clashes between the rival groups. Then there's the local cops. In recent years, the left has expressed a great deal of scorn and contempt for cops, while the right-wing (including Trump) has kept flowering them with praise, love, and adulation. Are they fully onboard? Can they be trusted? What about the military itself?

In situations like this, you can't always count on everyone following the same rule book. The whole core of this current issue is that Trump didn't follow the rule book, and if he can throw away the rule book, so can others (including those whose responsibility it is to enforce the rules). And then you have yourself a real problem on your hands.

FOX and OAN will spin it all any way they want, but justice needs to be shown to have law and order behind it. Trump is owed nothing. Trump owed the USA a duty, and he failed it. He should not be allowed to intimidate you, me or the whole of the United States of America. He is just one highly flawed and corrupt man. He's gone too far, and he needs to be held accountable.

I'm not intimidated by anyone. I'm just saying that if both sides remain as stubborn and entrenched as they appear to be, then things could get really bad.

I'm reminded of the closing line from Three Days of the Condor, which were kind of prophetic in a way:


  • Higgins : It's simple economics. Today it's oil, right? In ten or fifteen years, food. Plutonium. Maybe even sooner. Now, what do you think the people are gonna want us to do then?

    Joe Turner : Ask them?

    Higgins : Not now - then! Ask 'em when they're running out. Ask 'em when there's no heat in their homes and they're cold. Ask 'em when their engines stop. Ask 'em when people who have never known hunger start going hungry. You wanna know something? They won't want us to ask 'em. They'll just want us to get it for 'em!

At the end of the day, this is what you're dealing with. We're at the point now where larger segments of the population are demanding that their leaders "get it for 'em."

If our leadership can't or won't do that, then well, that's how revolutions happen. That's how tyrannies happen.

Caesar would never have gained dictatorial power if the other Patricians had not been such greedy tightwads living in the lap of luxury while the common people lived in poverty and squalor. Hitler would not have gained power if people weren't put into a position of having to carry wheelbarrows of money just to buy a loaf of bread. Stalin would never have gained power if not for tsarist greed and incompetence, as well as Western Allied imperialism (along with their own greed and incompetence), not to mention the Kaiser's greed and incompetence (which also ties into to Hitler's rise to power).

Do you not see a recurring pattern here? It seems that the lesson should be quite simple to understand: Take care of the needs of the people, first and foremost. Do not countenance the kind of greed and incompetence which has been running roughshod throughout our political system, our legal system, our economic system, and across the entire culture. All of what we're seeing now could have been avoided if we had more foresight and paid closer attention to the basics.

All they're doing now is providing the circus, but no bread. And that's where they're losing the hearts and minds. Those who have bread can sit back and enjoy the circus, but if they're living in a nice home in a nice neighborhood and know where their next meal is coming from, then they have that luxury. They have the luxury to be outraged by this "egregious attack on our democracy." Those who aren't as blessed as that don't have that luxury, and therein lies the difference.

If the only thing the Democrats can say about our current economic dilemmas is to give endorsement to capitalism while saying "there's nothing we can do," then their days are numbered. They people will grow to be impatient with empty words and platitudes. They will need something substantial and concrete to placate them, so the Democrats better be willing to come across with the bread when the time comes - or else the people will look to others to get their daily bread. And they won't care much about lawyers' prattle or "rules" either, so you won't be able to fall back on that either. You'll have to be ready to fight and ready to kill.

I'm not afraid of death myself, but I don't have it in my heart to fight or kill. So I'd probably go down without a struggle. I'm not prepared for a long-term crisis. I have no emergency food supply. I have no weapons caches or ammunition. I don't even have a pick-up truck anymore. I have a box of band-aids, which is the extent of my first aid and medical supplies. I expect to be an early casualty if/when the SHTF. But I've lived most of my life, so I'm not too worried about dying. It'll happen sooner or later anyway.

But I do worry about what will happen to others and what they'll have to go through. I don't care about abstract concepts like "democracy," but I do care about people and the suffering they go through - and the even greater suffering they'll endure if these stubborn, entrenched political factions can't take the chip off their shoulder long enough to reach some sort of reconciliation or show some desire for peaceful coexistence.

I don't relish any of this, which is why I would much rather that people simply step back and take a deep breath. No day is a good day to die. We can choose not to fight today.
 

KW

Well-Known Member
[
Why on Earth would you have such a belief? It makes one look rather gullible to say the least. There does not appear to be any credible evidence for that nonsense.



biden-mail-in-ballot-bailout.jpg


Note that the spike for Biden in both cases came after a period of no counting. That's when they were determining how many votes to dump.
 
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KW

Well-Known Member
If this is so reputable why aren't Republicans bringing it up when they are interviewed?

Edit: So this is why people are not referring to this disinformation. Its D'Sousa, and he is a fraud and a liar. But you believe it? Why?

17 Michigan lawmakers want AG to investigate debunked “2000 Mules” claims


They changed the rules due to the pandemic, as many other states did. This in no way meant there was voter fraud. It only changed how the citizens voted. So this issue is more about procedure, not about any fraud. Do you think it is cheating to allow more citizens to vote, and vote easily?


Yet you only bring up two dubious claims. If this was so overwhelming why aren't you posting it?


False. If there was actual evidence you would present it. The two things above are not adequate to back up your claims of cheating.

And do you like Trump? Do you accept his corruption and actual election fraud activity? Do you think it's proper for a president to commit election fraud?


Pennsylvania: At 11pm on election night Trump leads Biden by 700,000 votes, a 13% margin of victory. Then mail-in vote batches appear which give Biden the lead by the morning of November 6. On September 8, the PA Supreme Court ruled in advance that mail-in ballots with no postmarks or name and address can be counted. (Official ruling here)
 

KW

Well-Known Member
Why on Earth would you have such a belief? It makes one look rather gullible to say the least. There does not appear to be any credible evidence for that nonsense.


“[Michigan] Supreme Court has ruled that ballots without a postmark or proof of mailing will be presumed to be mailed by Election Day “unless a preponderance of the evidence demonstrates that it was mail after Election Day.”

The court also ruled that mail ballots couldn’t be rejected on signature comparisons.

Also, Just the News reports that there are practically zero rejected mail-in ballots compared to previous years, when a typical rejection rate might be one percent:
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
“[Michigan] Supreme Court has ruled that ballots without a postmark or proof of mailing will be presumed to be mailed by Election Day “unless a preponderance of the evidence demonstrates that it was mail after Election Day.”

The court also ruled that mail ballots couldn’t be rejected on signature comparisons.

Also, Just the News reports that there are practically zero rejected mail-in ballots compared to previous years, when a typical rejection rate might be one percent:
If you want to have any credibility you need to find a reliable source.

Oops! Too late. I already found a source that refutes the first claim. Votes that arrive ON TIME, but without a date cannot be rejected:

Supreme Court OKs 1 state counting undated mail ballots
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
Pennsylvania: At 11pm on election night Trump leads Biden by 700,000 votes, a 13% margin of victory. Then mail-in vote batches appear which give Biden the lead by the morning of November 6. On September 8, the PA Supreme Court ruled in advance that mail-in ballots with no postmarks or name and address can be counted. (Official ruling here)
Because PA doesn't count mail in ballots until after polls close. Everyone knew this. Everyone knew there would be a huge set of votes added once the counting was complete. And given how Trump claimed mail in ballots were fraud it was Democrat voters who used them more often.

And if you don't like the SC ruling then you don't like it. They were still valid votes cast by citizens. There have been many cases of mail in ballots being overly complex and redundant as far as signatures required, and the result has been thousands of votes not counted. Texas is a prime example.

Almost 25,000 mail-in ballots were rejected in Texas for its March 1 primary election
 

KW

Well-Known Member
Because PA doesn't count mail in ballots until after polls close. Everyone knew this. Everyone knew there would be a huge set of votes added once the counting was complete. And given how Trump claimed mail in ballots were fraud it was Democrat voters who used them more often.

And if you don't like the SC ruling then you don't like it. They were still valid votes cast by citizens. There have been many cases of mail in ballots being overly complex and redundant as far as signatures required, and the result has been thousands of votes not counted. Texas is a prime example.

Almost 25,000 mail-in ballots were rejected in Texas for its March 1 primary election


Democrats rigged the election. We all know it.

Republicans will have to do a better job watching the dems next time.

Dinesh's movie will help. We can moniter drop boxes better and take photos of those people dropping multiple ballots.
 

KW

Well-Known Member
Because PA doesn't count mail in ballots until after polls close. Everyone knew this. Everyone knew there would be a huge set of votes added once the counting was complete. And given how Trump claimed mail in ballots were fraud it was Democrat voters who used them more often.

And if you don't like the SC ruling then you don't like it. They were still valid votes cast by citizens. There have been many cases of mail in ballots being overly complex and redundant as far as signatures required, and the result has been thousands of votes not counted. Texas is a prime example.

Almost 25,000 mail-in ballots were rejected in Texas for its March 1 primary election


Watch 2000 mules if you want to know how they did it.

Philadephia alone had about 1100 mules delivering untraceable mail in ballots to the unmonitered drop boxes.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Because PA doesn't count mail in ballots until after polls close. Everyone knew this. Everyone knew there would be a huge set of votes added once the counting was complete. And given how Trump claimed mail in ballots were fraud it was Democrat voters who used them more often.

And if you don't like the SC ruling then you don't like it. They were still valid votes cast by citizens. There have been many cases of mail in ballots being overly complex and redundant as far as signatures required, and the result has been thousands of votes not counted. Texas is a prime example.

Almost 25,000 mail-in ballots were rejected in Texas for its March 1 primary election
The Supreme Court ruling applied only to ballots received on time. So unless those pesky Democrats invented time travel I do not see how that would be a problem.
 
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