Why don't Republicans see this?

[Subduction Zone]

That's not the job of the Legislative branch.

Actually it is at times. One example of this would be impeachments. When it comes to non-political crimes that is in the realm of the courts.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do you feel the same way about Watergate?

YES!!! Reinstate Nixon! He can be our first Zombie President!

 

[F1fan]

That's not the job of the Legislative branch.

There is a big difference e between what the authority and duty of congress actually IS versus what you would like it to be. Your opinion is irrelevant. That you lean on your opinion as if it is a fact is factually incorrect.

Do you feel the same way about the two Benghazi hearings looking into Clinton, led by Republican Trey Gowdy? Remember, both committees found no accountability on Clinton's part.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Actually it is at times. One example of this would be impeachments. When it comes to non-political crimes that is in the realm of the courts.

From USAGOV

Legislative Branch of the U.S. Government

The legislative branch drafts proposed laws, confirms or rejects presidential nominations for heads of federal agencies, federal judges, and the Supreme Court, and has the authority to declare war.


I see nothing about impeachments.

 

[Subduction Zone]

From USAGOV

Legislative Branch of the U.S. Government

The legislative branch drafts proposed laws, confirms or rejects presidential nominations for heads of federal agencies, federal judges, and the Supreme Court, and has the authority to declare war.


I see nothing about impeachments.

You might want to read the Constitution. It is in there.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

One of the things that came out of the second day of public hearings by the January 6 Committee is that:

1. Everybody (except a drunk Giuliani) around Trump was telling him there was no fraud (so he knew),
2. Trump continued the Big Lie in spite of all of them (so he continued to lie),
3. Using the Big Lie, he then went on to raise $250 million from his supporters for a non-existent "defense fund," and put it in his own pocket (and he used that lie to commit what can only be called fraud -- against his own supporters).

So for heavens sake, why can't they see the truth, and stop supporting the man who has so self-servingly robbed them blind?

Do you think that these people share your values but are deluded, that if they knew what you know, they'd be right there beside you? If so, I disagree.

There's a term you may know called false consensus effect, which refers to the cognitive bias that we are mostly all basically the same and would respond similarly in similar circumstances understood similarly. I say that these people are fundamentally different from you, a decent, compassionate person. Is it an exaggeration to say that if insects were made in the shape of human beings and granted the gift of speech that they would be indistinguishable from these people.so different are they?

Imagine that that were literally the case - that they were Men In Black type insectlike aliens in human form on earth to harm humanity or America. How long would it take people to recognize that? What would be different to reveal that these things don't have 23 pairs of chromosomes or human DNA? I don't say that the Republicans aren't human, just that some human beings can be difficult to distinguish from insects in human form.

Well at least he got things accomplished unlike the present occupier of the White House

Yeah, and Trump's accomplishments are keeping Congress, AGs and DAs busy.

Well it looks like a number of you can find fault with the previous administration, but can't put forth anything the present administration has done right.

Incorrect and irrelevant even if it were correct. Trump still needs to go to prison for his crimes.

President Trump did not tell a “Big Lie”

You must have missed the Monday session of the J6 committee's reveal. Bill Barr was a star witness against Trump and his lie, and just one of many.

Why is it that, nearly two years after the election, there are still people who are obsessed with Trump?

Obsessed? It's more like when watching a story of somebody's egregious behavior as in a movie featuring a supervillain, the audience is awaiting its moment of catharsis as the perp gets his comeuppance. If in a theater, one is likely to hear applause as the white hats gun down the black ones. You're not asking others to turn off the movie before the denouement, are you? Nor calling their interest obsession? Although apparently many don't care, many people still do and want behavior like that punished. Don't you?

I think there's a direct relationship between how much influence he has and how his opponents are obsessed with taking him down.

I think that even if he had no influence, many want to see him brought to justice.

What you wrote sounds more like organized, politicized religion and the attitude of the antitheists trying to get it out of government. I have long said that once all religions have the same influence as the Druids, for example, humanists are unlikely to give them more thought. But this is different. Trump has a debt to pay however irrelevant he becomes.

The question is, is it really worth it? And if so, why?

Yes, it's worth it. Why? They should have held Nixon, Reagan, and Bush accountable. Now you've got presidents believing that they are above the law. There needs to be a huge price paid by those that try. It needs to be the case that if you attempt a coup or insurrection and fail, that your life is over. Trump must not be given a pass or a slap on the wrist. His needs to be made a cautionary tale to others thinking of following in his footsteps. Fail, and have your freedom, assets reputation and legacy stripped from you, and in my estimation, your life, too. That was a crime against America, although only about half seem to care.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Age is just a number.
Do you know anyone who is older than Biden? How do they stack up compared to him.

Myself I don't care about age, but in lieu of that I do believe we need a mental and physical fitness test for potential candidates. Mental decline is a normal thing as we age, but this allows those of a geriatric age continue to govern if they have the mental fitness for it (and health, as I don't think someone high risk of something like heart attack or stroke, or dealing with terminal cancer would be good).
And, a concern regardless is I'm not that found of people making decisions they won't have to live with the consequences of (politically, that is).

 

[SkepticThinker]

Do you feel the same way about Watergate?

Aaaaaand .... crickets.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Aaaaaand .... crickets.

Unexpected? Not so much, no.

 

[KW]

It was a planned insurrection. Four people died on that day, and just because they were Trump supporters doesn’t mean their deaths don’t count. They died because they were lied to. Five other people died after that day as a direct consequence of those events. 138 Law enforcement officers were injured, some suffering permanent debilitating injuries. The fact is that there were several “protesters” there with firearms, and many more with knives, bats, and other weapons that they brought with them.

It was an insurrection, it was a planned insurrection. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. People have been charged with and convicted of insurrection conspiracy.

It was not a planned insurrection. No weapons and no plan. Stop the lies.

One Trump supporter, an unarmed woman, was shot by capitol police.

2 Trump supporters died of heart attacks unrelated to the protest.

1 Capitol policeman had a stroke.

Get a grip!

 

[fantome profane]

It was not a planned insurrection. No weapons and no plan. Stop the lies.

One Trump supporter, an unarmed woman, was shot by capitol police.

2 Trump supporters died of heart attacks unrelated to the protest.

1 Capitol policeman had a stroke.

Get a grip!

What would it take to convince you? Hypothetically. What if we had video from a documentary film maker of people planning the insurrection? What if we had people confessing to planning the insurrection? What if we had police records of people who were caught bringing guns into the capital building that day? What if we had people confessing (or bragging) about having guns on them that day?

Would any of that make any difference to you?


cuzguswat.

 

[KW]

What would it take to convince you? Hypothetically. What if we had video from a documentary film maker of people planning the insurrection? What if we had people confessing to planning the insurrection? What if we had police records of people who were caught bringing guns into the capital building that day? What if we had people confessing (or bragging) about having guns on them that day?

Would any of that make any difference to you?


cuzguswat.

It was obviously an out of control protest. There was no plan.

They were angry idiots wandering around the capitol with signs and funny outfits.

No weapons, no plan, no leader, no insurrection.

You people are grasping at straws.

 

[fantome profane]

 

[Subduction Zone]

It was obviously an out of control protest. There was no plan.

They were angry idiots wandering around the capitol with signs and funny outfits.

No weapons, no plan, no leader, no insurrection.

You people are grasping at straws.

You do not appear to even understand what a weapon is. That causes a huge loss of credibility.

 

[F1fan]

It was not a planned insurrection. No weapons and no plan. Stop the lies.

Once again you are amazingly 100% wrong.

Read '1776 Returns,' a 9-page extremist plot to take over the Supreme Court, CNN and 6 other DC buildings

Court filing includes 9-page plan to occupy congressional buildings on January 6, 2021 - CNNPolitics

Firearms, a drone and 30 days of supplies: New details of Oath Keepers Jan. 6 weapons cache

One Trump supporter, an unarmed woman, was shot by capitol police.

Over 800 indictments so far from Trump supporters breaking various federal crimes.

Your efforts to minimize the facts of this event, and the planning before, and the conspiracies before and after, are being exposed. Your denial is irrelevant to what the well informed understand about this.

 

[metis]

Agreed...the key being "least venal"... which is what I vote by. (of course, there could be disagreement on who is "the most".

At this point, knowing what we now know overwhelmingly based on the evidence, there shouldn't be.

 

[Stevicus]

Obsessed? It's more like when watching a story of somebody's egregious behavior as in a movie featuring a supervillain, the audience is awaiting its moment of catharsis as the perp gets his comeuppance. If in a theater, one is likely to hear applause as the white hats gun down the black ones. You're not asking others to turn off the movie before the denouement, are you? Nor calling their interest obsession? Although apparently many don't care, many people still do and want behavior like that punished. Don't you?

I just don't view realpolitik as being as dramatic as all that. There is no denouement.

The thing is, if they had all this evidence to convict Trump, why haven't they used it? Why don't they just end it by prosecuting him, convicting him, and imprisoning him? They've been wanting to do this for the past 5+ years. They keep talking and talking and talking about how bad Trump, how he should have been impeached, how he should be punished for his crimes. So, what have they been waiting for? Why do they keep talking? Why don't they just do it and get it over with?

The fact that they've been dragging this out longer than it needs to be - that's where it comes off as obsessive. Either this is just some kind of mind game, or they're just using this issue to distract the public from other things. They just need to **** or get off the pot.

As for me, I think there are more important issues facing the country at present. Either our leaders can get back to the business of governing this country and fixing our numerous problems, or they can sit around nursing their fragile egos.

I think that even if he had no influence, many want to see him brought to justice.

So, what are they waiting for? Either they have enough evidence to convict him or they don't. If they have enough evidence right now, then they should get it done. If they don't have enough evidence right now, then they should stop talking until they do. The fact that they're dragging this on and on, apparently without sufficient evidence to bring him to an actual courtroom (the proper forum for bringing perpetrators to justice), it seems clear that this is politically motivated and not some not pure, noble desire to see justice done.

What you wrote sounds more like organized, politicized religion and the attitude of the antitheists trying to get it out of government. I have long said that once all religions have the same influence as the Druids, for example, humanists are unlikely to give them more thought. But this is different. Trump has a debt to pay however irrelevant he becomes.

As I said, if he has a debt to pay, the proper venue for the legal processes you're referring to is a court of law. That might be seen as more legitimate in the eyes of the people.

Political ideologies can be considered analogous to religions, as both entail abstract beliefs and value systems.

It hasn't escaped my notice that many people have been reacting to January 6 as if a sacred religious shrine has been violated, and the narrative also includes outrage because Trump undermined "faith" in our democracy. In that sense, America itself might be considered a "religion" of sorts.

If America is a religion, then it seems the established, mainline leadership considers Trump to be the leader of a breakaway sect - heretical, fanatical, and dangerous.

Perhaps my own view is different from others is because I don't really have much faith in the patriotic illusions I was once raised and conditioned to believe in. So, if a mob of true believers seems hellbent on burning the heretic, I won't stand in their way, but I won't cheer them on either.

Yes, it's worth it. Why? They should have held Nixon, Reagan, and Bush accountable. Now you've got presidents believing that they are above the law. There needs to be a huge price paid by those that try.

In principle, I like your way of thinking, but I also realize that there are political realities to deal with. They also gave amnesty to most of the Confederates after the Civil War, and historians may always question whether or not that was a wise move. But the destruction and death which came about in that conflict was enough to convince most people that...they didn't want to have another civil war.

I don't know if or who might be held accountable, particularly when it comes to the actions of politicians and others within government. They should be held accountable, but too often, they are given a pass. Reagan was called the "Teflon President" because nothing would stick to him. Any kind of criticism just seemed to bounce off him with no effect whatsoever. Even the Iran-Contra scandal, where the only significant outcome was that Ollie North became some kind of national hero in people's eyes.

The other side of this is another political reality that, whatever one side does to the other, the other side might come back and retaliate. Some people are trying to call for unity, they want things to quiet down, they want the rhetoric toned down and made more reasonable. Unfortunately, there's a lot of loud, dangerous talk out there, along with people going crazy with guns. This is not some parlor game or an academic exercise in philosophy.

Again, I would just reiterate that it should be handled in court, purely as a legal matter. That should be sufficient in terms of holding Trump accountable. But anything beyond that is just politics, and it almost seems like a deliberate attempt to stir the pot and rile up the people.

It needs to be the case that if you attempt a coup or insurrection and fail, that your life is over. Trump must not be given a pass or a slap on the wrist. His needs to be made a cautionary tale to others thinking of following in his footsteps. Fail, and have your freedom, assets reputation and legacy stripped from you, and in my estimation, your life, too. That was a crime against America, although only about half seem to care.

It was definitely a crime. There's no doubt in my mind about that, and it seems clear that those who were identified and arrested are being held accountable for their crimes. The charges leveled against them appeared to be appropriate for their crimes, but as far as I can tell, none of them were ever charged with insurrection, treason, or taking part in a coup.

As for a crime against America, that's a tricky point. I'm not sure how many people actually care, whether it's half or even less than that. I recall a great deal of outrage in the aftermath of 9/11, and a lot of people obviously cared about that. In comparison, this incident didn't seem to generate as much patriotic passion or outrage.

The fact is, a lot of people have more important things to worry about these days. There's still a lot of pain and suffering going on across the country which are far more deserving of our government's attention at present. The judicial branch of government can deal with Trump and his cohorts from now on, while the legislative and executive branches should do what they're being paid to do.

 

[F1fan]

I just don't view realpolitik as being as dramatic as all that. There is no denouement.

The thing is, if they had all this evidence to convict Trump, why haven't they used it? Why don't they just end it by prosecuting him, convicting him, and imprisoning him? They've been wanting to do this for the past 5+ years. They keep talking and talking and talking about how bad Trump, how he should have been impeached, how he should be punished for his crimes. So, what have they been waiting for? Why do they keep talking? Why don't they just do it and get it over with?

Because the DOJ needs to have a slam dunk case before they even THINK about indicting a former president. Remember, early on there has been a lot of resistance by Republicans and Trump insiders to cooperate, and they are the witnesses. They all lawyered up and slowed the process hoping to delay things until Republicans took the House and Senate. It is now apparent they are getting testimonies and more and more are seeing the writing on the wall, and cooperating. I'm shocked how many have testified against Trump already.

This is an extremely complicated case and the DOJ is being very careful about the evidence and the charges.

The fact that they've been dragging this out longer than it needs to be - that's where it comes off as obsessive. Either this is just some kind of mind game, or they're just using this issue to distract the public from other things. They just need to **** or get off the pot.

The Watergate investigations took over 2 years. Nixon didn't resign for that period of time, and they had many cooperating witnesses. It wasn't until the committee got the 18 minute missing tapes that there was a slam dunk case against Nixon. He resigned and was pardoned by Ford.

To my mind the Jan 6 conspiracy, attack on the Capitol, and the whole election fraud efforts by Trump, his inner circle, and other Republicans, is vastly worse as it ties in many more conservatives into a cult of criminal conspiracy. This is huge conspiracy, and many law enforcement and justice department agencies are swamped with indictments and investigations. This isn't a Hollywood movie where it all gets wrapped up in 2 hours. Justice takes time.

As for me, I think there are more important issues facing the country at present. Either our leaders can get back to the business of governing this country and fixing our numerous problems, or they can sit around nursing their fragile egos.

Should we ignore other criminal offenses in the USA? Robberies? Shootings? Fraud? Just don't worry about crime because there are other issues like gas prices?

What Trump and his allies did, and are still doing, as you can see on a new post I am posting about election officials in a county in New Mexico refusing to certify primary votes, to sabotage our democracy. We have to think about the future, not just the present We create a better future by holding criminals accountable.

You sound very upset. We all are. It's hot, inflation is affecting all of us. The future democracy of the USA is uncertain, women's reproductive rights are on the cusp of being eliminated, the stock markets are dropping and our trust funds and retirement funds are shrinking, and mass shootings are nearly a daily headline. We need to harden the **** up and cope, and focus on the ball. We need to make rational changes that secure our future, otherwise we react emotionally and make errors of judgment and our future is further screwed up.

 

[Heyo]

This is an extremely complicated case and the DOJ is being very careful about the evidence and the charges.

And possibly their trust in the judicial system. Trump survived two indictments and three Supreme Court Justices owe their positions to him.

But I'm also not sure they really want him behind bars. A convicted criminal as President would not be a favourite record in most of US citizens eyes.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I just don't view realpolitik as being as dramatic as all that.

I do. That's my reason for paying attention to the Trumpworld investigations. I don't have much skin in the game any longer after a dozen years living abroad with no intention to return to the States even for a brief visit. I've been watching it purely for entertainment as if I were watching several seasons of the Sopranos. It's interesting to me. I wouldn't do that if I didn't find it dramatic.

This is a good source for following the J6 developments, and I read it for the entertainment value: Home it contains a lot of opinion, which I just ignore even though it is all liberal opinion, but it keeps me up to date on how things are proceeding along. The following is from Donald Trump should be hiding under his desk by the end of next week

"Awhile back, the January 6th Committee publicly asserted that Rep. Barry Loudermilk gave a January 5th Capitol tour. Not only did it release photographic proof today, it also released video proof that one of Loudermilk’s tour guests was part of the insurrection the next day. The pattern we keep seeing from this committee is that whenever it makes an assertion or allegation, it’s because it has the evidence in hand to more than back it up. This is particularly bad news for Donald Trump, given that the committee has publicly stated that it has proof Trump committed several crimes – including proof that Trump didn’t just incite the Capitol attack, he was a criminal co-conspirator in the attack."

None of this has any discernible bearing on my life any more, but I look forward to each new episode anyway. Is that obsession? I also look forward to Wordle every day now. And I look forward to and watch both the CBS and NBC evening news every night (NBC is 7d/w, but CBS just the weekdays) just out of interest, not relevance.

Why don't they just end it by prosecuting him, convicting him, and imprisoning him? They've been wanting to do this for the past 5+ years. They keep talking and talking and talking about how bad Trump, how he should have been impeached, how he should be punished for his crimes. So, what have they been waiting for?

They've been waiting years for the Republicans to lose the power to obstruct them in this. You had a president that himself was a crime spree pardoning fellow felons, an AG who treated the DOJ as a branch of Trump and scuttled the Mueller Report as well as investigations into Republican malfeasance until just before he resigned, and a Congress that refused to convict a guilty president. Even post-Trump, the Republicans tried to obstruct the January 6th investigation, but by then, they could prevent a Senate investigation but not one by the House. The forces representing law and order couldn't begin work in earnest until 2021.

Either they have enough evidence to convict him or they don't. If they have enough evidence right now, then they should get it done. If they don't have enough evidence right now, then they should stop talking until they do. The fact that they're dragging this on and on, apparently without sufficient evidence to bring him to an actual courtroom (the proper forum for bringing perpetrators to justice), it seems clear that this is politically motivated and not some not pure, noble desire to see justice done.

These RICO type investigations into criminal enterprise and conspiracy take a very long time. New York, Georgia, the DOJ, and the J6 committee have all been conducting the types of investigation that begin with the little fish, who flip on bigger fish all the way up to the kingpin. We watched this occurring with the insurrection. First, the soldiers were prosecuted, who flipped on their paramilitary leaders now indicted for seditious conspiracy, who have likely already flipped on the congressional Republicans that helped them logistically as well as Trump's inner orbit (Stone, Bannon, Giuliani, etc.), and finally, for these people to save themselves if they can by helping convict Trump. I think that they are at or very near this last stage.

Here's a nice illustration of that at Here’s the cooperating witness against Mark Meadows and Donald Trump where we see Meadow's assistant flip on Meadows, who will have motive to flip on Trump:

"During the brief period in which Mark Meadows was cooperating with the January 6th Committee, by all accounts he turned over a ton of evidence against himself and others. Once he remembered how much legal trouble he was in, he then refused to give the committee context for that evidence. But details have continued to surface about what Meadows and Donald Trump were saying and doing during the election overthrow timeframe. That’s partly because one of Meadows’ former top White House aides, Cassidy Hutchinson, has been cooperating with the January 6th Committee. "

And the same is occurring with the election tampering in Georgia and the Trump Organization's financial crimes in New York. Remember, they only get one bite at the apple, and they need to make as many charges stick as possible, so their ducks need to be in a row before going ahead with prosecution. I'm satisfied to give the all the time they need to do that. It actually increases the drama as the targets of these investigations howl about the committee not being legitimate and how they intend to exact revenge in January if they regain the House.

I don't see political motivation there. This is not a political process even though it is being carried out by politicians or that the Republicans both call it partisan politics and engage in partisan politics themselves trying to obstruct it to protect their party and themselves. It's a factfinding mission in Congress, and will be a legal process free of politics once Garland et al. hand down indictments.