Why don't Republicans see this?

[sayak83]

One of the things that came out of the second day of public hearings by the January 6 Committee is that:

1. Everybody (except a drunk Giuliani) around Trump was telling him there was no fraud (so he knew),
2. Trump continued the Big Lie in spite of all of them (so he continued to lie),
3. Using the Big Lie, he then went on to raise $250 million from his supporters for a non-existent "defense fund," and put it in his own pocket (and he used that lie to commit what can only be called fraud -- against his own supporters).

So for heavens sake, why can't they see the truth, and stop supporting the man who has so self-servingly robbed them blind?

All of this will be forgiven because Trump made it possible to get a conservative SC and help (maybe) overturn Roe v Wade.
Think from a Conservative perspective. If you believe that a million of the most innocent of humans are being brutally murdered everyday with state sanction, can there be anything more important than stopping that? Even if a dictatorship of a minority has to be installed to stop it, that will still be moral under such calculations.

 

[metis]

President Trump did not tell a “Big Lie”. He contested the results of the election. That is something that other politicians have also done.

That simply is not true, plus he said even a couple of months before the election that the only way he could lose is because of fraud.

 

[Stevicus]

I think the relationship between Trump popularity and media occurred during the 2016 election. His ratings as President were never great, and even now his influence is waning, except perhpas among his hardcore supporters.

But that influence is still there, hence why we need to discuss and debate it.

I have considered whether people supported Trump only because he so easily angered their political opponents. I think there's some truth there, but simultaneously, I think they do support his more acerbic approach and controversial ideas. He's xenophobic and racist and they are all right with that.

I don't think it's just because people want to get rid of him. He gives a kind of public voice to their own deep-seated fears.

As I mentioned in another post, most people seem to be motivated by self-interest when it comes to politics. Even Bill Clinton once said "It's the economy, stupid," and yet, so many liberals and moderates seem to have forgotten that.

It seems that many political elites and their supporters can't seem to understand why people - who are just barely getting by, struggling to stay above water - aren't willing to sacrifice what little they have left for the sake of some abstract political ideals which mean nothing to people who barely have two dimes to rub together.

Yes, there is a lot of fear out there, and Trump has been able to capitalize on that fear. It's not much of a mystery, but where did all this fear come from in the first place? Trump's racism and xenophobia relate to the whole notion of "America First," which seems to be the main rallying cry of the right wing these days. That line of thinking has historical precedent and a political etymology behind it. In today's political climate "America First" might be analogous to "Me First," which is also a strong part of our culture these days. I think that's actually more a consequence which Reagan's ultra-capitalism brought upon the culture, which even liberals seemed to buy into as they also appeared to revel in it by the Clinton era. (Liberals also appeared to divide around this time, with the mainstream going for Clinton, while there was a small subset who supported people like Jerry Brown, Ralph Nader, and the like. They're likely the predecessors of today's "Bernie Bros.")

If there's anything we need to discuss and debate, it should probably be about what has happened to America. Trump didn't just pop up out of a vacuum and make everybody crazy. Even if Trump's influence wanes, they're still going to be crazy.

I don't think there's any short-term solution in terms of changing the culture or people's mindsets, but to keep the peace, there might be a way of pacifying and placating the restless masses. As a socialist, my view is that the priority should be on providing the basic necessities for those who need it. We rushed headlong into this global economy thingy, throwing caution to the four winds, yet current economic conditions would indicate that things are not really working out as expected or once hoped for.

In a nutshell, this is the perception that we're dealing with: "Things suck today, but things were much better back in the days when we put America first." It doesn't really matter what they think about vaccines, evolution, climate change, flat earth, election fraud, QAnon, Trump, or any other kind of crazy talk they're associated with. Essentially, you're dealing with a mindset which believes that many of our problems stem from the fact that our leadership did not put America and Americans first on their agenda. That's where there is need for discussion and debate. Everything else is just theater.

 

[metis]

Yes in many respects. It's associated with Leninism.

Democratic centralism - Wikipedia

Maybe to a fascist.

 

[SkepticThinker]

These are merely your opinion.

Corroborated by the evidence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

How was it an assault on our country. It was an out of control protest with no weapons and no non protesters killed.

It was nothing. Of course some of the people should be arrested and they have been, but it is not the national crisis democrats are trying to make it.

The BLM and Antifa riots were far more deadly, damaging, and widespread.

Several times now, I've provided you with endless lists of articles outlining the weapons those people brought to the insurrection. Not to mention the poles and fire extinguishers they used to beat police officers with. You couldn't even be bothered to respond to those numerous posts. You continue to assert that there weren't any weapons, You are wrong. You are living in a confirmation bias bubble. You need to get out. Facts are your friends. You are the epitome of the type of Republican being discussed in the OP.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm not into that reality TV tripe chaired by kangaroos that's being passed on as factual.

"La La La, I don't care what the facts are!"

 

[F1fan]

As I mentioned in another post, most people seem to be motivated by self-interest when it comes to politics. Even Bill Clinton once said "It's the economy, stupid," and yet, so many liberals and moderates seem to have forgotten that.

It seems that many political elites and their supporters can't seem to understand why people - who are just barely getting by, struggling to stay above water - aren't willing to sacrifice what little they have left for the sake of some abstract political ideals which mean nothing to people who barely have two dimes to rub together.

Yes, there is a lot of fear out there, and Trump has been able to capitalize on that fear. It's not much of a mystery, but where did all this fear come from in the first place? Trump's racism and xenophobia relate to the whole notion of "America First," which seems to be the main rallying cry of the right wing these days. That line of thinking has historical precedent and a political etymology behind it. In today's political climate "America First" might be analogous to "Me First," which is also a strong part of our culture these days. I think that's actually more a consequence which Reagan's ultra-capitalism brought upon the culture, which even liberals seemed to buy into as they also appeared to revel in it by the Clinton era. (Liberals also appeared to divide around this time, with the mainstream going for Clinton, while there was a small subset who supported people like Jerry Brown, Ralph Nader, and the like. They're likely the predecessors of today's "Bernie Bros.")

If there's anything we need to discuss and debate, it should probably be about what has happened to America. Trump didn't just pop up out of a vacuum and make everybody crazy. Even if Trump's influence wanes, they're still going to be crazy.

I don't think there's any short-term solution in terms of changing the culture or people's mindsets, but to keep the peace, there might be a way of pacifying and placating the restless masses. As a socialist, my view is that the priority should be on providing the basic necessities for those who need it. We rushed headlong into this global economy thingy, throwing caution to the four winds, yet current economic conditions would indicate that things are not really working out as expected or once hoped for.

In a nutshell, this is the perception that we're dealing with: "Things suck today, but things were much better back in the days when we put America first." It doesn't really matter what they think about vaccines, evolution, climate change, flat earth, election fraud, QAnon, Trump, or any other kind of crazy talk they're associated with. Essentially, you're dealing with a mindset which believes that many of our problems stem from the fact that our leadership did not put America and Americans first on their agenda. That's where there is need for discussion and debate. Everything else is just theater.

To put it into a simple motive I suspect many Americans lack any sort of meaning in their lives. Religion is boring. We have no meaningful wars to rally behind a national fight. Terrorism is over as a felt and noticeable threat. So fighting each other via tribalism is an easy thing to cause and exploit. The fight over abortion services is the big one. The right with their self-righteousness and the left with their reproductive liberty. The right wing media and their mission of MAGA disinformation and the left seeking some sort of expose of corruption rampant in the MAGA universe. The right who is pushing some sort of idealistic America and the left who still seeks basic human rights and public services, like healthcare.

I'm still not sure what the GOP stands for, except grievance. What are their ideas that help serve the citizens of America in practical ways, not for ideological and emotional desires?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

All of this will be forgiven because Trump made it possible to get a conservative SC and help (maybe) overturn Roe v Wade.
Think from a Conservative perspective. If you believe that a million of the most innocent of humans are being brutally murdered everyday with state sanction, can there be anything more important than stopping that? Even if a dictatorship of a minority has to be installed to stop it, that will still be moral under such calculations.

Sad to think that they have no idea whatever what it would entail if they got their wish, and all abortions were stopped. There would be so many unwanted children unable to find adoptive or foster homes it would be a terrible tragedy. And I mean this from the bottom of my heart. I know something of my family history now (although I lived all my life until I was 70 knowing nothing), and I alone am related to at least 15 living people who were farmed out, some very unsuccessfully, including some who died as a result.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Maybe to a fascist.

In your world perhaps.

 

[F1fan]

One example of the dangerous and negative effects of MAGA on our politics is the GOP primary of secretary of state in Nevada. Marchant won the primary with 38%. This is a person who said that if he was SoS in 2020 he would not have certified the election results, thus handing the decision over to the GOP led state officials, who presumably would send electors for Trump instead. As a reminder the election results were not close. Biden got 50.1% and Trump got 47.7% of the vote. If republicans are running openly on an idea that they would not certify clear election results, and without any evidence of fraud, then this suggests anti-democracy attitudes among conservative voters.

The question is will this message turn off the swing voters of Nevada, as we can see voted in the majority for Biden? Is it really a smart message to admit you would not certify an election if the results went against your preferred candidate? Is that public service?

 

[Kenny]

Nobody is perfect, @KenS, but that's no reason not to pay attention to what they're all doing, and choosing the least venal.

Agreed...the key being "least venal"... which is what I vote by. (of course, there could be disagreement on who is "the most".

 

[wellwisher]

One of the things that came out of the second day of public hearings by the January 6 Committee is that:

1. Everybody (except a drunk Giuliani) around Trump was telling him there was no fraud (so he knew),
2. Trump continued the Big Lie in spite of all of them (so he continued to lie),
3. Using the Big Lie, he then went on to raise $250 million from his supporters for a non-existent "defense fund," and put it in his own pocket (and he used that lie to commit what can only be called fraud -- against his own supporters).

So for heavens sake, why can't they see the truth, and stop supporting the man who has so self-servingly robbed them blind?

There are three branches of Government in the USA; Executive, Legislative and Judicial. The Legislative branch, which is running this kangaroo court. is over stepping its Constitutional authority, since the Legislative branch is about making laws and spending money. The can investigate but there job is not to be judge and jury. If there was any real crime, and not just political reality TV crimes, the AG, would be in charge doing what the judiciary was intended to legally do. The Attorney General is not doing anything, since there is nothing to do. The Democrats did this by design; stage a scam, that is outside the fair trial standards of the Judiciary all for political theatre.

That fact that the Judicial is not doing anything, shows this is all a partisan political game designed to be run before the midterms. If the Judicial was in charge, everyone who is still in jail without a fair trial, still awaiting a fair trial, would have to get a fair trial or be released. This scam is all about manipulating public opinion before the midterms and to hobble Trump before 2024.

Anything they find, will not hold up in Court, since if it was taken to the Supreme Court and they will determine the separation of powers was violated and rights were deprived; mistral, However, the con will be out there for the media propaganda machine to hype, with the con artists playing the victim. This is classic dirty politics.

Does anyone remember the Russian Collusion Delusion scam? This is the same group of people doing it again. How can anyone trust this same group of people to suddenly find God and be honest? This is why the Judicial is not being asked to do anything, since this can be turned around via a fair trial, where both sides can asks questions and provide evidence. Kangaroo courts can be lopsided.

The speaker of the House is/was responsible for security at the Capital. Pelosi screwed up and/or made this day possible. This has not talked about and will not spoken of by this kangaroo court. This changes the conclusions, that one is being led via limited data. Maybe they can call Nancy Pelosi to give her side of the story, under risk of perjury. When the Republican win both houses of Congress in the midterms and control all the committees, this bunch of scammers will have their day in court and the record set straight.

Consider this scenario, say same con artist, who ran the Russian Collusion Coup and who now are in violation of separation of powers, were exposed. In this scenario, what Trump did would be justified, since his job, as President, is to defend the Constitution from all threats foreign and domestic. This includes thieves and con artists who work in Washington at high levels, who ran a soft coup using Russian Disinformation; fake dossier from foreign nationals.

Why didn't Mueller have any intel on Hillary Clinton and the DNC that started the collusion scam? The Mueller investigation should have seen this? You need to look at the longer term data and not just the short term data, or context can be manipulated. Trump looks better with all the data.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There are three branches of Government in the USA; Executive, Legislative and Judicial. The Legislative branch, which is running this kangaroo court. is over stepping its Constitutional authority, since the Legislative branch is about making laws and spending money. The can investigate but there job is not to be judge and jury. If there was any real crime, and not just political reality TV crimes, the AG, would be in charge doing what the judiciary was intended to legally do. The Attorney General is not doing anything, since there is nothing to do. The Democrats did this by design; stage a scam, that is outside the fair trial standards of the Judiciary all for political theatre.

That fact that the Judicial is not doing anything, shows this is all a partisan political game designed to be run before the midterms. If the Judicial was in charge, everyone who is still in jail without a fair trial, still awaiting a fair trial, would have to get a fair trial or be released. This scam is all about manipulating public opinion before the midterms and to hobble Trump before 2024.

Anything they find, will not hold up in Court, since if it was taken to the Supreme Court and they will determine the separation of powers was violated and rights were deprived; mistral, However, the con will be out there for the media propaganda machine to hype, with the con artists playing the victim. This is classic dirty politics.

Does anyone remember the Russian Collusion Delusion scam? This is the same group of people doing it again. How can anyone trust this same group of people to suddenly find God and be honest? This is why the Judicial is not being asked to do anything, since this can be turned around via a fair trial, where both sides can asks questions and provide evidence. Kangaroo courts can be lopsided.

The speaker of the House is/was responsible for security at the Capital. Pelosi screwed up and/or made this day possible. This has not talked about and will not spoken of by this kangaroo court. This changes the conclusions, that one is being led via limited data. Maybe they can call Nancy Pelosi to give her side of the story, under risk of perjury. When the Republican win both houses of Congress in the midterms and control all the committees, this bunch of scammers will have their day in court and the record set straight.

Consider this scenario, say same con artist, who ran the Russian Collusion Coup and who now are in violation of separation of powers, were exposed. In this scenario, what Trump did would be justified, since his job, as President, is to defend the Constitution from all threats foreign and domestic. This includes thieves and con artists who work in Washington at high levels, who ran a soft coup using Russian Disinformation; fake dossier.

Why didn't Mueller have any intel about Hillary Clinton and the DNC that started the collusion scam, since the Mueller investigation should have seen this? The scammers know so their only hope to avoid such exposure is to steal elections, with some type trickery, since once in power, by hock or crook. they are above the law. Without power, they may end up in jail. You need to look at the longer term data and not just the short terms so context can be manipulated. Trump looks better with all the data.

You sound like somebody who really should be watching the hearings.

PolitiFact - No evidence Pelosi ‘rejected’ Trump’s authorization for ‘20,000 National Guard’ before Jan. 6 attack
Pence — not Trump — called in Guard troops as Meadows tried to stop it
Pence — not Trump — asked Guard troops to help defend Capitol on Jan. 6, panel says
Trump "gleefully" watched TV on Jan. 6 and "did nothing": Adam Kinzinger
Cheney: Trump Never Called Military to Defend U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 – But Pence Did

 

[F1fan]

There are three branches of Government in the USA; Executive, Legislative and Judicial. The Legislative branch, which is running this kangaroo court.

It's a bipartisan committee.

is over stepping its Constitutional authority, since the Legislative branch is about making laws and spending money.

Part of their job is oversight, which you failed to mention. Congress has a long history of doing oversight. This committee is being compared to the Watergate hearings that drew a great deal of public attention, as these hearings are also getting. The first night of hearings got 20 million viewers, with many millions more watching online. That is significant as far as public interest.

The can investigate but there job is not to be judge and jury.

Correct. They have the authority to investigate corruption, and the evidence is shared with the DOJ. The DOJ has the authority to prosecute. It has been confirmed that the DOJ and prosecutors are watching the hearings and accepting the testimonies and evidence that has been collected thus far.

As is known, many Trump insiders have admitted that they saw no evidence of election fraud and told Trump directly. These people include William Barr, Ivanka Trump, white house lawyers, Trump campaign officials, and other advisors. The single person outside this group was Guiliani, and he has been involved in his own corruption scandal related to political activities. So Trump was informed that he lost the election, very soon after the election. Trump had no reason to claim that there was fraud, yet continues to this day that there was. He also used this lie about election fraud to exploit conservative supporters. Numerous PACs were formed, including a Election Defense Fund that accumulated over $250 million. There was no money spent on any election defense, so there is an issue of fraud, and an investigation into this fund raising. As we know Bannon was indicted on a similar fund raising scheme for border wall construction that was simply pocketed.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

There are three branches of Government in the USA; Executive, Legislative and Judicial. The Legislative branch, which is running this kangaroo court. is over stepping its Constitutional authority, since the Legislative branch is about making laws and spending money. The can investigate but there job is not to be judge and jury. If there was any real crime, and not just political reality TV crimes, the AG, would be in charge doing what the judiciary was intended to legally do. The Attorney General is not doing anything, since there is nothing to do. The Democrats did this by design; stage a scam, that is outside the fair trial standards of the Judiciary all for political theatre.

That fact that the Judicial is not doing anything, shows this is all a partisan political game designed to be run before the midterms. If the Judicial was in charge, everyone who is still in jail without a fair trial, still awaiting a fair trial, would have to get a fair trial or be released. This scam is all about manipulating public opinion before the midterms and to hobble Trump before 2024.

Anything they find, will not hold up in Court, since if it was taken to the Supreme Court and they will determine the separation of powers was violated and rights were deprived; mistral, However, the con will be out there for the media propaganda machine to hype, with the con artists playing the victim. This is classic dirty politics.

Does anyone remember the Russian Collusion Delusion scam? This is the same group of people doing it again. How can anyone trust this same group of people to suddenly find God and be honest? This is why the Judicial is not being asked to do anything, since this can be turned around via a fair trial, where both sides can asks questions and provide evidence. Kangaroo courts can be lopsided.

The speaker of the House is/was responsible for security at the Capital. Pelosi screwed up and/or made this day possible. This has not talked about and will not spoken of by this kangaroo court. This changes the conclusions, that one is being led via limited data. Maybe they can call Nancy Pelosi to give her side of the story, under risk of perjury. When the Republican win both houses of Congress in the midterms and control all the committees, this bunch of scammers will have their day in court and the record set straight.

Consider this scenario, say same con artist, who ran the Russian Collusion Coup and who now are in violation of separation of powers, were exposed. In this scenario, what Trump did would be justified, since his job, as President, is to defend the Constitution from all threats foreign and domestic. This includes thieves and con artists who work in Washington at high levels, who ran a soft coup using Russian Disinformation; fake dossier from foreign nationals.

Why didn't Mueller have any intel on Hillary Clinton and the DNC that started the collusion scam? The Mueller investigation should have seen this? You need to look at the longer term data and not just the short term data, or context can be manipulated. Trump looks better with all the data.

Quite the screed -- however, one can't help but notice that you avoided answering anything at all to do with the OP. Instead, you began, continued and ended with a long series of misdirections -- pointing this way and that hoping to get everybody to look away towards something YOU would prefer they look at.

The fact that there are 3 branches of government is totally irrelevant. The fact that DOJ has not laid charges (you don't, in fact, know whether they are investigating or not) is neither here nor there. The House is perfectly within its rights to establish a committee of oversight with the intention of: a) finding out what happened on January 6, b) why it happened, and c) how it might be prevented. None of these is in the slightest obviated by the fact that the House can't lay charges.

And may I also point out that not doing the right thing now -- because somebody didn't do the right thing some time in the past -- is not a really good argument for anything, now is it? Surely your parents told you at some point that "two wrongs don't make a right."

 

[Twilight Hue]

There are three branches of Government in the USA; Executive, Legislative and Judicial. The Legislative branch, which is running this kangaroo court. is over stepping its Constitutional authority, since the Legislative branch is about making laws and spending money. The can investigate but there job is not to be judge and jury. If there was any real crime, and not just political reality TV crimes, the AG, would be in charge doing what the judiciary was intended to legally do. The Attorney General is not doing anything, since there is nothing to do. The Democrats did this by design; stage a scam, that is outside the fair trial standards of the Judiciary all for political theatre.

That fact that the Judicial is not doing anything, shows this is all a partisan political game designed to be run before the midterms. If the Judicial was in charge, everyone who is still in jail without a fair trial, still awaiting a fair trial, would have to get a fair trial or be released. This scam is all about manipulating public opinion before the midterms and to hobble Trump before 2024.

Anything they find, will not hold up in Court, since if it was taken to the Supreme Court and they will determine the separation of powers was violated and rights were deprived; mistral, However, the con will be out there for the media propaganda machine to hype, with the con artists playing the victim. This is classic dirty politics.

Does anyone remember the Russian Collusion Delusion scam? This is the same group of people doing it again. How can anyone trust this same group of people to suddenly find God and be honest? This is why the Judicial is not being asked to do anything, since this can be turned around via a fair trial, where both sides can asks questions and provide evidence. Kangaroo courts can be lopsided.

The speaker of the House is/was responsible for security at the Capital. Pelosi screwed up and/or made this day possible. This has not talked about and will not spoken of by this kangaroo court. This changes the conclusions, that one is being led via limited data. Maybe they can call Nancy Pelosi to give her side of the story, under risk of perjury. When the Republican win both houses of Congress in the midterms and control all the committees, this bunch of scammers will have their day in court and the record set straight.

Consider this scenario, say same con artist, who ran the Russian Collusion Coup and who now are in violation of separation of powers, were exposed. In this scenario, what Trump did would be justified, since his job, as President, is to defend the Constitution from all threats foreign and domestic. This includes thieves and con artists who work in Washington at high levels, who ran a soft coup using Russian Disinformation; fake dossier from foreign nationals.

Why didn't Mueller have any intel on Hillary Clinton and the DNC that started the collusion scam? The Mueller investigation should have seen this? You need to look at the longer term data and not just the short term data, or context can be manipulated. Trump looks better with all the data.

Exactly.

The big trillion gazillion dollar question is, why is the Judiciary not involved, but rather its the Legislative instead? Who gave them that kind of power? It's fishy.

Hit the nail squarely on the head. Excellent post.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Exactly.

The big trillion gazillion dollar question is, why is the Judiciary not involved, but rather its the Legislative instead? Who gave them that kind of power? It's fishy.

Hit the nail squarely on the head. Excellent post.

No, any post that starts with an obvious fallacy is not an "excellent post". This trial has to be a political trial since there are flaws with our justice system. There are simply too many Trump supporters right now that will not and cannot reason rationally. We see it hear even today with more than one support of Trump believing the lies that the election was stolen. The best way to try to deal with the lawbreakers and deniers of reality is to continually shine a bright light on how Trump tried to steal the election that he lost, in his own words "by a landslide".

 

[Twilight Hue]

No, any post that starts with an obvious fallacy is not an "excellent post". This trial has to be a political trial since there are flaws with our justice system. There are simply too many Trump supporters right now that will not and cannot reason rationally. We see it hear even today with more than one support of Trump believing the lies that the election was stolen. The best way to try to deal with the lawbreakers and deniers of reality is to continually shine a bright light on how Trump tried to steal the election that he lost, in his own words "by a landslide".

That's not the job of the Legislative branch.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That's not the job of the Legislative branch.

Do you feel the same way about Watergate?