Why don't some people like being created?

[The Voice of Reason]

OK come on lets be real!!! It is only those who step out in intuition and open up there awareness to possibilities (not trying to make reality line up with there own methods) that advance knowledge.
Mainstream science comes along after the facts to pick up the glory.

So, you think that intuition leads to the development of polymers, or the newer drugs that pharmaceutical companies develop. You think that the design of the space shuttle and the materials that are used to build and protect it are just intuition that popped into someone's mind.
Why don't you just "intuit" an inexhaustible source of energy or a perpetual motion machine? Come on - you can do it.

Logic follows awareness!

Logic follows only the set of rules that describe rational thought and are used to determine the validity of positions in debate. Rules of Logic

There are quite a few fallacies that have been identified and given names (mostly using Latin, but often with colloquial names).

Do yourself a favor, Walk. Take a college course in logic. Challenge yourself to learn to use your mind, rather than just stifling your intellect and subjugating your mind to a religious dogma. At the end of the day, you may find that your faith is even stronger. Then again, you may find that those shackles really were holding you back.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

That underlined was the science of the day, not the religion !

Do you ever think before you post?

Wouldn't your God want you to use your mind? Wouldn't a father want his son to grow? It's safe out here, and God doesn't seem to strike people dead for thinking. I promise.

 

[Walkntune]

Do yourself a favor, Walk. Take a college course in logic. Challenge yourself to learn to use your mind, rather than just stifling your intellect and subjugating your mind to a religious dogma. At the end of the day, you may find that your faith is even stronger. Then again, you may find that those shackles really were holding you back.

Why? I already see the end of logic. A kid can carry all logical knowledge known to man in a piece of plastic in his back pocket.The next generation will be for those with intuition and wisdom and only they will be able to move forward! What good is logic without wisdom? You study some scriptures and maybe you will understand wisdom.

"Isn't truth inherent in man?" I interjected. "You once told me that progress is made only by intuition, and not by the accumulation of knowledge."
"It's not as simple as that," replied Einstein. "Knowledge is necessary, too. An intuitive child couldn't accomplish anything without some knowledge. There will come a point in everyone's life, however where only intuition can make the leap ahead, without ever knowing precisely how. One can never know why but one must accept intuition as a fact."Albert Einstein

You see our differences are that I accept that Logical knowledge is necessary but it doesn't lead the way.It only rationalises reality after awareness is open to it!
Faith opens up awareness and leads the way!
​

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Why? I already see the end of logic.

You see nothing, and most tragically, you are blind by choice.

What good is logic without wisdom?

Not much at all. Of course, that is a different question, for another thread. Try to focus.

You study some scriptures and maybe you will understand wisdom.

You confuse your religious dogma with an accumulation of wisdom. That's not very wise.

Faith opens up awareness and leads the way!

Give me some examples of faith leading to knowledge.

 

[painted wolf]

Give me some examples of faith leading to knowledge.

Mesoamerica and the development of advanced astronomy and math.

wa:do

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Mesoamerica and the development of advanced astronomy and math.

wa:do

A given religious belief may stir someone's curiosity (or "intuition" as Walk wants to call it), but that is not what I'm asking. I am asking for an example of someone expanding the base of knowledge of mankind, simply by virtue of his (or her) faith in a God.

I'm sure that mankind has contemplated the stars for milennia, and over time, the accumulated knowledge has been compiled into what we now know as astronomy. That knowledge was the result of observation of the night skies, though - not someone contemplating God's will.

Faith (in God) can provide the spark for one's curiousity, just as thought that is not born of faith can be.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Who is in charge at a zoo?

The invisible hand of the market.

All the grand plans of the zookeepers don't amount to anything real if they don't have the dosh to pay for them.

 

[Walkntune]

Give me some examples of faith leading to knowledge.

People believed they could fly before they figured out how!(wright brothers ETC)

You confuse your religious dogma with an accumulation of wisdom. That's not very wise.

On the contrary I am very interested in quantum theory and where science is heading.
I am very open to logical knowledge(or all knowledge gained) by being open and aware of our universe and not trying to make it fit into any method whether scientific or religious.
After all it created me and not vice versa!
I even gather knowledge of your integrity and character by some of your demeaning statements.

 

[Autodidact]

I guess not any more embarrassing then watching science change through the years! They used to laugh at people wanting to fly in the air in machines! It just wasn't logical!
The herd does follow along though!

You do realize this attacks your position, right? Because your position is the one that scientific progress discovered to be wrong and rejected in favor of evolution.

 

[Autodidact]

Sure, I'll dispute it. It wasn't science or religion that taught us the Earth is round, it was Greek mathematics!
Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

And what method do you suppose Eratosthenes employed to determine the size of the earth's sphere?

 

[Autodidact]

"They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground."
God

God said that? How do you know?

 

[Autodidact]

OK come on lets be real!!! It is only those who step out in intuition and open up there awareness to possibilities (not trying to make reality line up with there own methods) that advance knowledge.
Mainstream science comes along after the facts to pick up the glory.
Logic follows awareness! Awareness does not follow logic!

That underlined was the science of the day, not the religion !

If you argue with any creationist long enough, they will reveal their contempt for science. It is humorous though when they use their computer to do so.

So what you're saying, Walkn, is that you reject science as a way to learn about the natural world? Is that right?

 

[Super Saiya Jinn]

Why? I already see the end of logic. A kid can carry all logical knowledge known to man in a piece of plastic in his back pocket.The next generation will be for those with intuition and wisdom and only they will be able to move forward! What good is logic without wisdom?

Can you maybe explain this more, why would logic be no good without wisdom?

You study some scriptures and maybe you will understand wisdom.

Please....the last place to look for wisdom would be scripture, all i have read from it, is mainly bad advice. The only good advice would be that the human race would have already had long before the scriptures were written.

Treat others as you would be treated, don't steal, don't lie, don't covert neighbours goods or wife, don't kill, and the such.

All straight forward things that anyone sane would have already learnt from their parents, regardless of what faith or lack of it.

You see our differences are that I accept that Logical knowledge is necessary but it doesn't lead the way.It only rationalises reality after awareness is open to it!

Faith opens up awareness and leads the way!
​

Faith is good in some context, i agree, like to have faith in something that is demonstratable and provable, but blind faith is a different game altogether, It's just not where the smart money goes. Why put faith in the bible or the Christian God when there is so many other "faiths" or Gods to consider? It's just not smart to choose a side.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And what method do you suppose Eratosthenes employed to determine the size of the earth's sphere?

A fondness for walking.



Oh... and a bit of science.

 

[Walkntune]

You do realize this attacks your position, right? Because your position is the one that scientific progress discovered to be wrong and rejected in favor of evolution.

I believe all energy comes from and manipulated by an energy source and science is just on the verge on coming to this reality that energy is all there is.
When science unveils it's last uncertainty the only thing that it will be certain of is that it is uncertain!

 

[Walkntune]

If you argue with any creationist long enough, they will reveal their contempt for science. It is humorous though when they use their computer to do so.

So what you're saying, Walkn, is that you reject science as a way to learn about the natural world? Is that right?

No I think rationalizing and logic is the only way to learn about whats in your awareness.
How you open and close your awareness is a different story though!
Eventually what doesn't seem logical now will seem logical as awareness opens up.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No I think rationalizing and logic is the only way to learn about whats in your awareness.
How you open and close your awareness is a different story though!
Eventually what doesn't seem logical now will seem logical as awareness opens up.

Some conclusions that are unsupported by evidence now will end up being supported by evidence in the future, yes. Others will be refuted by the evidence and end up looking bat-poop crazy.

However, even if a person's unfounded belief ends up being coincidentally correct, this doesn't mean that he had good reason to believe it before the evidence was actually available.

 

[Autodidact]

I believe all energy comes from and manipulated by an energy source and science is just on the verge on coming to this reality that energy is all there is.
When science unveils it's last uncertainty the only thing that it will be certain of is that it is uncertain!

Too late; science already knows that. All scientific knowledge is uncertain. However, when the level of uncertainty is reduced below 1%, it becomes prudent to accept the uncertainty as functionally true. The only way to reject such knowledge is to reject science itself, which is certainly your prerogative. Of course, you would have to give up anti-biotics, vaccines, air travel, your computer...None of the science those are based on is certain. It is however, around as certain as ToE. ToE is scientifically certain, which is to say <1% uncertain.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

People believed they could fly before they figured out how!(wright brothers ETC)

People wanted to fly before they figured out how. That isn't the same as believing they could. They also figured out how to fly using scientific principles and applying them to the problem at hand. The Wright brothers didn't pray themselves to the knowlegde of how to fly - they solved the problems in front of them, one at a time.

If you honestly believe that faith is the source of knowledge, how do you explain it when an atheist or an agnostic discovers or invents something? Do they momentarily believe in God, and then immediately reject religion after the fact?

After all it created me and not vice versa!

Which, of course, is an expression of your faith ...

I even gather knowledge of your integrity and character by some of your demeaning statements.

My character perhaps (since I am openly skeptical of your position, and I do not hide that), but my integrity is beyond your knowledge at this point. You attack my integrity with no basis for doing so (hurting your feelings or being derisive of you is not an issue of integrity). Maybe it's faith born of knowledge that you believe enables you to judge my integrity - no?

 

[Autodidact]

No I think rationalizing and logic is the only way to learn about whats in your awareness.
How you open and close your awareness is a different story though!
Eventually what doesn't seem logical now will seem logical as awareness opens up.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of logic. Also empirical data. I see you're not. And, not uncoincidentally, you're a theist.