Why Exist?

[swamplizard]

I agree. But why want to?

Hi atanu,

"And, therein sways the purpose."

best,
swampy

 

[atanu]

I think I understand what your trying to say. If determinism is correct then everything we do is destined. Sure, its possible. Personally, I think its likely that it is true. Determinism is a very important part of my understanding.

In terms of determinism, we just have to hope that our minds are up to it lol.

Some things are still better than others. For example, if a theory is known to be true then it is better than a theory that is known to be false.

Actually determininism does not make sense till we know what is that which is subjected to determinism.

Science has studied what is measuarble or what is amenable to logic. And then in a round about way some scientists say that the reality is only this much -- that which has been studied and that which is ruled by causal determinism. Do you see the anomaly? It is like saying "I can see this much and thus the truth is this much only". In reality we do not know the entity that sees and knows.

What actually is born of sexual reproduction? Is the self born? If the self is born then it is helpless. If self's intelligence is born from inert materials, then our intelligence is also helpless and science is meaningless. My point is that it is most important to be able to say what is determined and what is not. The awareness that knows the laws could not be a product of the same laws.

Well, everything that happens is always in the present. The statement 'I am an aware being who is enquiring' is not necessarily true, as I see it. Consciousness/awareness may be just that. Our thoughts may be separate from our consciousness, as can our decisions and enquiries, etc. So, in this case, I may be aware that 839311's mind is making an enquiry, but I may not have any control over it.

Again it will depend on what is "I". If it is a product then it has no freedom. If it simply is the Seer that is not attached to any other thing, then it can have less or more control depending upon where the awareness is situated.

 

[Thief]

The awareness that knows the laws could not be a product of the same laws.

Again it will depend on what is "I". If it is a product then it has no freedom. If it simply is the Seer that is not attached to any other thing, then it can have less or more control depending upon where the awareness is situated.

Your jumping from one perspective to another at will....
and missing the part about 'will'.

It is God's will that you exist.
Why?.....to have another spirit with a fresh perspective.

It is your linear existence that causes you to be unique.
And that quality makes you interesting.

"I", would be that portion that comes forth when the clay stiffens, and fails.

 

[839311]

Actually determininism does not make sense till we know what is that which is subjected to determinism.

How does it not make sense?

Science has studied what is measuarble or what is amenable to logic. And then in a round about way some scientists say that the reality is only this much -- that which has been studied and that which is ruled by causal determinism. Do you see the anomaly? It is like saying "I can see this much and thus the truth is this much only". In reality we do not know the entity that sees and knows.

If all your saying is that we havn't accounted for consciousness yet then I agree. It is one of the reasons why I don't accept determinism outright. The fact of my awareness is a mysterious thing.

What actually is born of sexual reproduction? Is the self born?

In some sense of the word, maybe.

If the self is born then it is helpless. If self's intelligence is born from inert materials, then our intelligence is also helpless and science is meaningless.

What do you mean by helpless?

My point is that it is most important to be able to say what is determined and what is not.

Determinism makes no exceptions. Reality, though, could be such that some things are determined and others, like consciousness, are not.

The awareness that knows the laws could not be a product of the same laws.

I think it could be. Why do you say this?

If it is a product then it has no freedom. If it simply is the Seer that is not attached to any other thing, then it can have less or more control depending upon where the awareness is situated.

According to your understanding, have you considered how the mechanics allow this awareness to have less or more control?

 

[atanu]

Your jumping from one perspective to another at will....
and missing the part about 'will'.

Agreed

It is God's will that you exist.
Why?.....to have another spirit with a fresh perspective.

Agreed. But without a querying by oneself, this is bookish.

 

[atanu]

How does it not make sense?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2654279-post21.html

If all your saying is that we havn't accounted for consciousness yet then I agree. It is one of the reasons why I don't accept determinism outright. The fact of my awareness is a mysterious thing.

Yes.

In some sense of the word, maybe.

Determinism makes no exceptions. Reality, though, could be such that some things are determined and others, like consciousness, are not.

So, we agree to a large extent.

What do you mean by helpless?

If we came about deterministically and our awareness came about deterministically, we are just helpless. Our future, all our interactions and reactions will be automatic.

I think it could be. Why do you say this?

Has anyone experienced any structure to have unravelled the cause of the structure?

According to your understanding, have you considered how the mechanics allow this awareness to have less or more control?

It is a long topic. But even a preliminary experience with yoga, pranayama, or meditation will indicate that one is not one's thoughts, which inevitably arise from the foundation of a localised discrete body, which is ditinct from pure awareness of "I" (opposed to awareness of "I am this body").

 

[839311]

So, we agree to a large extent.

Yes, seems so. Have a :cigar:

If we came about deterministically and our awareness came about deterministically, we are just helpless. Our future, all our interactions and reactions will be automatic.

I think its just a matter of perspective. In a sense 'helpless' works, I understand where your coming from. I just don't like that word much. But other perspectives, more positive ones, could work too. 'We are destined' works.

Has anyone experienced any structure to have unravelled the cause of the structure?

I dont think its a matter of experience if were going for validity. Science will have to shed light on the matter of consciousness, or else I don't think any true progress is going to be made.

It is a long topic. But even a preliminary experience with yoga, pranayama, or meditation will indicate that one is not one's thoughts, which inevitably arise from the foundation of a localised discrete body which is distinct from pure awareness of "I" (opposed to awareness of "I am this body").

I agree in part. I agree that ones thoughts and consciousness are atleast to some degree separate. But I think that consciousness and ones thoughts could both arise from the localised body. Again, from where Im standing, the problem comes down to the insufficient information we have regarding consciousness. I hope that neuroscience will be able to figure it out... although Im not going to hold my breath lol

 

[Thief]

Agreed



Agreed. But without a querying by oneself, this is bookish.

'Bookish'...as in straight forward and logical?

 

[atanu]

'Bookish'...as in straight forward and logical?

No. No. If it was then we would not have this thread and many other unending threads. But for you it may be so. That is possible.

 

[atanu]

Yes, seems so. Have a :cigar:

Ahhh. Pleasure.

I think its just a matter of perspective. In a sense 'helpless' works, I understand where your coming from. I just don't like that word much. But other perspectives, more positive ones, could work too. 'We are destined' works.

Ha ha.

I dont think its a matter of experience if were going for validity. Science will have to shed light on the matter of consciousness, or else I don't think any true progress is going to be made.

How destiny and science mesh?

In this regard, I believe in scripture that from the first party perspective it is never possible to subject the subject to enquiry, since the enquirer itself will be an object of the true subject that sees and knows.

 

[839311]

In this regard, I believe in scripture that from the first party perspective it is never possible to subject the subject to enquiry, since the enquirer itself will be an object of the true subject that sees and knows.

A bit mystical, but I think I know what you are saying.

If I do, then I disagree. We know that consciousness is a thing of some kind. All things can potentially be studied by science. I say potentially, because we really don't know whether it truly is possible to study everything in depth. There may be limits to our ability to study certain areas of reality due to the laws of physics preventing any more progress.

So, in that sense, maybe your right that science won't be able to study consciousness. Maybe your wrong, and scientists will one day invent and create a huge microscope that will be able to study consciousnesses. As of now, there are too many unknowns for us to be able to say with certainty. Well, we could say it, as you do. I just don't think your justified to do so.

 

[atanu]

If I do, then I disagree. We know that consciousness is a thing of some kind.

How do we know this?

 

[839311]

How do we know this?

Because it is real.

 

[atanu]

Because it is real.

But why real has to graspable/measurable? How can the subject that knows be subject to object like enquiry?

 

[PolyHedral]

But why real has to graspable/measurable? How can the subject that knows be subject to object like enquiry?

Because we are lazy evaluators. We do not need to hold the entire concept in our head simultaneously in order to imagine a thing.

(After all, 2^4096 doesn't cause your brain to overflow, does it?)

 

[swamplizard]

Because we are lazy evaluators. We do not need to hold the entire concept in our head simultaneously in order to imagine a thing.

(After all, 2^4096 doesn't cause your brain to overflow, does it?)

Hi PolyHedral,

Interesting that you would pick 4096 as an exponent of 2, since it is 2^12.

best,
swampy

 

[atanu]

Because we are lazy evaluators. We do not need to hold the entire concept in our head simultaneously in order to imagine a thing.

(After all, 2^4096 doesn't cause your brain to overflow, does it?)

I suppose that we are called conditioned awareness, which means we have inbuilt boundary checking, not for nothing.

But actually I do not understand you.

 

[Acintya_Ash]

We know our purposes everyday, every moment by asking God.

 

[Tumah]

We know our purposes everyday, every moment by asking God.

I see necromancy is permitted in your religion.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Why does one exist? Does any individual know the reason for his/her coming into being? Does the individual know his/her purpose of being?

Yeah, it's kind of troubling but maybe it's not that big of a deal. No one really knows. That question isn't answered anywhere, not even in religions that have all the answers. I mean you still won't know why your there even if there is an afterlife, even if it is explained by your religion that your soul existed before you were born. That just isn't something we are allowed to like, know. I guess in a way you might as well not even ask that.