Why have Christians forgotten the fourth Commandment?

[d.n.irvin]

God doesn't change, but WE DO.

Do you deny we have a New Covenant?

Certainly not, Do you deny Bible Prophecy?

Do you deny that Bible Prophecy warns that a religious power would change the Seventh Day Sabbath of God?

Explain how a "New Covenant" would have anything at all to do with the Fourth Commandment? or any of the other commandments?

How can the only commandment God Himself wrote(twice) that starts off with the word "Remember" most of the Christian world forgets?

Bible Prophecy answers all of these questions?

 

[Scuba Pete]

What do you mean "Certainly Not"? Do you mean that you don't deny that we are under a new Covenant, or that there is no New Covenant? I am just trying to understand you here.

 

[d.n.irvin]

What do you mean "Certainly Not"? Do you mean that you don't deny that we are under a new Covenant, or that there is no New Covenant? I am just trying to understand you here.

Yes, we have a New Covenant, But how does the New Covenant - affect the Ten Commandments? specifically the Fourth commandment - moreover if I understand you correctly, a "New Covenant" the way you present it -means you can do whatever you want -in regards to worshiping God, and we know what the Bible says about that.
So what are you trying to say about the New Covenant?

 

[Scuba Pete]

So what are you trying to say about the New Covenant?

Like a new contract, the NEW one REPLACES (supersedes, supplants, substitutes, changes) the OLD Covenant.

It's like when I get a NEW insurance policy for my car: things CHANGE. We have a new deductible, new rules, new regulations and I should assume NOTHING remains the same.

The OLD covenant was RULES based: Do this, don't do that, don't touch, pay this, yada, yada, yada. These rules were designed to do one thing: bring us a savior at the right time.

The NEW covenant is SPIRIT based: Love God and Love everyone else! NO RULES! If Love is your motivation, you don't need no steenking rules.

This was also prophesied about in the Old Testament and I have already presented that where it was quoted in Hebrews. But consider this next passage:

Galatians 2:17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" NIV

Here we have the beginnings of why the NEW covenant is superior to the OLD covenant. We are DEAD to the law. Just as if I died today, I would be FREE from all the American laws, I am now free from the Spiritual laws of the OLD covenant. Now consider this scripture:

Galatians 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir. NIV

You see, those who wish to be justified by following the OLD covenant (such as the Sabbath), are SLAVES. Those who accept the Spirit of Christ, which is the Spirit of God are SONS of God through faith. But you think that the "Law" referred to here is merely the Law of Moses. So, where DID Moses receive the Ten Commandments? Do you remember? Let's read on in Galatians, and we will see where THIS Law the scriptures keep referring to came from.

Galatians 4:24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. NIV

So, it's your choice: a slave under the Ten Commandments or Free under Grace. If you continue to observe ANY PART of the OLD covenant, you are obliged to observe it all! It is for FREEDOM that I have been set free, and no one will ever entrap me again.

I suggest that you read the entire book of Galatians, stem to stern, to really understand the FREEDOM that we have in Jesus. No laws. No Regulations. Just Love inspired by God's Spirit within me. No, freedom is not for everyone, and many are jealous of it. But for me, it's the only way to live!

 

[Vassal]

I can't believe you guys are still arguing over this...

Romans 7:1-6 (NLT) 1 Now, dear brothers and sisters--you who are familiar with the law--don't you know that the law applies only to a person who is still living? 2 Let me illustrate. When a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. 3 So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries. 4 So this is the point: The law no longer holds you in its power, because you died to its power when you died with Christ on the cross. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, you can produce good fruit, that is, good deeds for God. 5 When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced sinful deeds, resulting in death. 6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died with Christ, and we are no longer captive to its power. Now we can really serve God, not in the old way by obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way, by the Spirit.

We are released from the law, and we no longer have to worry about the ten commandments or any of the other previous laws. There is now only one commandment, to love each other.

John 13:34 (NLT) 34 So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other.

 

[doppelganger]

I suggest that you read the entire book of Galatians, stem to stern, to really understand the FREEDOM that we have in Jesus. No laws. No Regulations. Just Love inspired by God's Spirit within me. No, freedom is not for everyone, and many are jealous of it. But for me, it's the only way to live!

Romans, particularly chapters 6-8, are also good on this topic.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Romans, particularly chapters 6-8, are also good on this topic.

Yes it is... but Galatians really focuses on the FREEDOM we have in Jesus. AND, it IDs the "Law" the NT is talking about as coming from Mount Sinai. The ONLY laws to fit that description are the Ten Commandments.

Of course, II Corinthians 3 also contrasts the Law written on Tablets of Stone to the one written on human hearts. It also could ONLY be referring to the Ten Commandments.

Freedom is harder to deal with for most people. They feel safe with a proscribed set of rules that govern when and how they worship as well as how they live their life. Love demands SO MUCH MORE of us, that it scares them. We don't just love God on the Sabbath, OR the first day of the week: we love him 24/7/365/the rest of our lives. That means we love everyone else too! It's an intimidating prospect for all of us.

 

[d.n.irvin]

This post is in response to Brother Pete's last post:

The Law and the Gospel

What is the purpose of the Law?
"By the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the Law is a knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

How particular is God concerning Christian conduct?
Whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point is guilty of all" James 2:10

Christ Saves Man, and Magnifies the Law

What is the Gospel declared to be?
" I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." Romans 1:16

What is the significance of the name of Jesus?
Thou shall call His name Jesus for He shall save His people from there sins. Matthew 1:21

How was Christ's attitude toward God's law foretold?
It is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea thy law is within my heart. Psalm 40:7,8

What does Christ promise of the "New Covenant"?
"But now he hath obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws into their mind and write them into their hearts"

For what did Paul trust Christ?
"I count all things but loss ...that I may win Christ,and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. Philippians 3:8,9

Does "faith" which brings righteousness abolish the Law?
" Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea we establish the law." Romans 3:31

So what did Christ take away?
Behold the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world."

What then has Christ abolished?
Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Timothy 1:10

"Man... needs to be solemnly reminded the the law of the spirit of the life of Christ sets him free from the law of sin and death, but not from the law of God."-G. Campbell Morgan, The Ten Commandments (Revell,1901 ed.),p.12

 

[d.n.irvin]

I can't believe you guys are still arguing over this...

We are released from the law, and we no longer have to worry about the ten commandments or any of the other previous laws. There is now only one commandment, to love each other.

I can't argue the Bible I believe Gods word just as it is

It is sometimes claimed that Christ changed, abolished, or took away the moral law, and put the gospel in its place: but this shows a misapprehension o the real work of Christ. The individual believer is changed by beholding the glory revealed in the gospel( 2 Corinthians 4:4; John 1:14); death has been abolished through the death of Christ; sin has been taken away by the great sin bearer ; but the law of God still remains unchanged as the very foundation of his throne.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I can't argue the Bible I believe Gods word just as it is

You do an excellent job of arguing with it!

As it is, you won't find me quoting men (excepting our conversations within this thread) to bolster any of my contentions.

Now, I have asked you several questions including: What was the "Law" that came from Mt Sinai? What laws were engraved in stone?

 

[d.n.irvin]

Grace and the Law

What scripture cuts off all hope of justification by works?
"By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is a knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

In what way are all believers in Jesus justified?
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ.verse 24

Is the believer to go on in sin after this?(being justified by grace)
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid, How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Romans 6:1,2

What was Christ personal attitude toward the law?
Think not that I am come to destroy the law(10 Commands), or the prophets(Old Testament): I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."Matthew 5:17. If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my father commandments, and abide in His love." John 15:10

Christ not only gave a spiritual interpretation to the law(Matthew 5:21,22 verses 27,28) and thus Himself observed it, but He showed the Holiness and immutable nature of the law by dying on the cross to pay th penalty of its transgression. In this way, above all he magnified the law.

Of what prophecy was this teaching a fulfillment?
"The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honorable. Isaiah 42:21

What scripture shows that God's remnant people will understand the proper relation between law and grace?
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God , and have the testimony of Jesus Revelation 14:12

" God has not left men to enmeshed in their own disobedience -He has provided a way of restoration.This is not by pulling the Heavenly standard down to the level of our guiltiness and weakness, but by lifting him up to the level of the eternal standard of His holiness... This restoration is restoration to a state of obedience to the Law....
The atonement of Jesus Christ.. bears an eternal relation to the Law of God, the Law which is holy, just and good.. [As the believer is] delivered by the work of Christ from the of a broken law, and given a new heart by the Holy Spirit, by which he loves the way of obedience that once he shunned, the Law and the gospel are seen working in glorious harmony for the blessing of redeemed man.
"To achieve this is the one great purpose of the proclamation of the gospel. O.C. S. Wallace, What baptist believe, pp. 8, 84 Copyright 1934, by the Sunday School Board of the Southern Baptist Convention

Again I ask you who changed the Sabbath? And who can deny what Bible Prophecy has to say about it?

 

[Scuba Pete]

You know Mr Irvin,

I have answered your question but you don't seem to want to answer mine. Why is that? Are you that afraid of the answer?

Jesus changed the Sabbath by fulfilling the Law and ALL of it's requirements. But hey, it's your life so feel free to stay under the law.

 

[d.n.irvin]

You know Mr Irvin,

I have answered your question but you don't seem to want to answer mine. Why is that? Are you that afraid of the answer?

The answer you have given is unbiblical -that is -it is out of harmony, when compared to ALL other scriptures

Jesus changed the Sabbath by fulfilling the Law and ALL of it's requirements. But hey, it's your life so feel free to stay under the law.

Jesus Magnifies the Sabbath

He will magnify the law,and make it honorable. Isaiah 42:21
In nothing, perhaps, was this more strikingly fulfilled than in the matter of Sabbath observance. By their numerous traditional regulations and senseless restrictions the Jews had made the Sabbath a burden, and anything but a delight. Christ removed all these, and and by his life and teachings restored the Sabbath to its proper place as a day of worship, of contemplation of God, a day for doing acts of charity and mercy. Thus he magnified it and made it honorable.
One of the most promenient features of Christ ministry was the work of Sabbath reform. Christ did not abolish or change the Sabbath; but he did rescue it from the rubbish of tradition, false ideas, and superstitions by which it had been degraded. The Pharisees placed the institution above man and against man. Christ reversed the order and said, "The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath." He showed that it was to minister to the happiness and well being of both man and beast.

"-Jesus observed the Sabbath Day of his own people. It was his custom to worship in the synagogues on the Sabbath Day. After he entered upon his own ministry, he and His followers continued to recognize and use the Sabbath day, but according to His own individual and spiritual insight and interpretation. Even when the Sabbath observance was made was made on of the Chief grounds of bitter antagonism to Him by the Pharisees he continued His recognition of the Sabbath and uttered no word that can properly be construed as lacking deep reverence. Apparently, he expected that his followers would continue to hold and inculcate the spirit of the Historic Sabbath" W. O. Carver, Sabbath Observance, p.25.(Copyright 1940, by the Sunday School Board of the Southern Baptist Convention

If Christ changed the Seventh-Day Sabbath, In view of the coming destruction of and desolation of Jerusalem, for what did Christ tell his disciples to pray for in regards to Seventh-Day Sabbath observance after His death?
"But pray ye that your flight not be in winter, neither on the Sabbath day" Matthew 24:20 (the destruction of Jerusalem was some 40 years after his death)

"The Great Teacher never intimated that the Sabbath was a ceremonial ordinance to cease with the Mosaic ritual... Instead of anticipating it extinction along with the ceremonial law, He speaks of its existence after the downfall of Jerusalem." W. D. Killen ( Irish Presbyterian ) The Ancient Church (1883 ed.) p. 188

So who Changed the Seventh Day Sabbath of God? Jesus? Nay I say -the Bible tells me otherwise.

What does Bible Prophecy tell us of the change?

 

[d.n.irvin]

You do an excellent job of arguing with it!

As it is, you won't find me quoting men (excepting our conversations within this thread) to bolster any of my contentions.

Now, I have asked you several questions including: What was the "Law" that came from Mt Sinai? What laws were engraved in stone?

This was covered in some earlier posts to you,

What does Bible Prophecy tell us about the change of the Sabbath? Anyone?

 

[Scuba Pete]

A dishonest apologist. Amazing.

What was the "Law" that came from Mt Sinai? What laws were engraved in stone?

We can continue the dialog when you can truthfully answer those two questions.

 

[Vassal]

Maybe you should read the Bible instead of quoting all these nobodys, specifically Romans 4, which states that if the heirs of the promise of salvation are only those who are of the law, then faith is nullified and the promise is meaningless, and Acts 15, which address the issue of what is needed for salvation, only faith. There's always been different people claiming that something beyond faith is required for salvation, such as circumcision, or baptism, or following the sabbath, or any number of different things, but the Bible is emphatic that it is only faith.

 

[d.n.irvin]

A dishonest apologist. Amazing.

What was the "Law" that came from Mt Sinai? What laws were engraved in stone?

We can continue the dialog when you can truthfully answer those two questions.

POST#416

POST#418

Friends if you miss the understanding of the "Law of God" and the "Law of Moses" you miss what the New Testament writers are saying.

 

[d.n.irvin]

Maybe you should read the Bible instead of quoting all these nobodys, specifically Romans 4, which states that if the heirs of the promise of salvation are only those who are of the law, then faith is nullified and the promise is meaningless, and Acts 15, which address the issue of what is needed for salvation, only faith. There's always been different people claiming that something beyond faith is required for salvation, such as circumcision, or baptism, or following the sabbath, or any number of different things, but the Bible is emphatic that it is only faith.

What does Bible Prophecy have to say about the change of the Seventh-Day Sabbath?

 

[Scuba Pete]

POST#416

POST#418

Friends if you miss the understanding of the "Law of God" and the "Law of Moses" you miss what the New Testament writers are saying.

Still, no direct answer. I guess you are bent to keeping up the facade and simply refuse to honestly look at scripture. In fact your arguments sound JUST LIKE the first century Pharisees...

John 9:16 Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." NIV

In fact, you are pushing the LAW just as I would expect a modern day Pharisee to do!I leave this discussion with one last scripture.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. NIV

I choose the reality that is found in Christ over your fantasy.

 

[d.n.irvin]

Still, no direct answer. I guess you are bent to keeping up the facade and simply refuse to honestly look at scripture. In fact your arguments sound JUST LIKE the first century Pharisees...

John 9:16 Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." NIV

In fact, you are pushing the LAW just as I would expect a modern day Pharisee to do!I leave this discussion with one last scripture.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. NIV

I choose the reality that is found in Christ over your fantasy.

It seems as though you choose to be willfully ignorant to the truths of the Word of God

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:Romans 16:26

Listen, when the Bible says to study " line upon line...precept upon precept...
here a little, there alittle," -and when Bible tells me that "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
-and when the Bible tells me to "study to show thyself approved, a dilligent workman that needth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth"

Do you honestly think that the Bible is saying to base your Biblical conclusions from reading a few texts of the New Testament ? -or from ALL scripture?



Brother Pete -lets be "frank" about it ok. Most Christians are not even aware of the divsions or differences between the "Law of God" and the "Law of Moses" If the Christian does not hold a true understanding the two "Laws" and their purposes, he can come up with many misguided conclusions in regards the writings of the New Testsament.

In Colossians 2:16, Paul makes reference to the "Law of Moses" not the "Law of God," -as he is speaking to newly converted Gentiles, that were being critized by Jews who still wanted to hold on to the "Laws of Moses"
Why would Paul contridict himself ?,
If we hold your interpretation or usage of the text to be true; then Paul is a liar, when we compare -how you use the text, against his other teachings.
This topic was "directly" covered in previous posts, but since you still are having problems accepting that the Bible in fact, mentions and distinguishes between "The Law of God" [aka The Ten Commandments] and "The Law of Moses" [aka The Ceremonial Law,aka Handwriting of Ordinances] I will be happy to provide you with additional Biblical references.


The Seveth-Day Sabbath issue, and many other issues could easily be cleared up by studying Bible Prophecy, in which you and most of the people in this fourm seem to be content to be willfully ignorant of, and afraid to dicuss.

BTW: you have made several false accusations toward my posts.