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Why I am not an atheist.

Audie

Veteran Member
John, one could do a search and replace on your post and replace 'God' with slavery or foot binding or colonialism and it would be just as true and just as false as the original.

Well, seriously.
A lot of things exist and persist
despite their negatives, not because of good
qualities.

The thing about the superiority and glory
of Judeo-Christian societies is nothing
better than ill concealed racist blather.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Evolution can't be refuted since its completely provable through scientific fact, and mere observation. Only a simpleton would deny that evolution occurs.

But there's another kind of simpleton. The one who thinks that because evolution occurs, nothing more is required.



John
Actually there is a third. The kind that thinks that a god is needed.

So why have you been yammering about abiogenesis? You do not seem to have a point. Perhaps it is because when you try to make a point that it is easily refuted.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Evolution can't be refuted since its completely provable through scientific fact, and mere observation. Only a simpleton would deny that evolution occurs.

But there's another kind of simpleton. The one who thinks that because evolution occurs, nothing more is required.

John

Cool. Calling names when people don't see
things you way when there is zero (0) facts
even hinting you are right.


What is a name for one grossly ignorant of evolution
who pretends to know its wrong, but hasn't one fact?

Lotta words pal, still not fact one.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The "theory" of evolution isn't speaking of evolution itself or else it wouldn't be called a "theory" (ToE). A "theory" speaks of something like a proposition, or hypothesis.

On the other hand, we know for a fact that evolution occurs, natural selection occurs.

The "theory" of evolution usually speaks of some all-encompassing idea that evolution itself explains the existence of things like brains and eyes and sentience. That's not the case. Another principle is required to go from a single-celled organism to something as complex as a human brain.

Which is not to deny evolution is involved. But something more than chance and random mutations is required.



John
Okay, so you do not know what a scientific theory is. You are quite incorrect. In the sciences a theory is as good as it gets. Theories if anything outrank laws. Laws are merely observations of events that always occur under specific conditions. By that definition evolution is a law. It is always observed, just as gravity is. But evolution is even better than a mere law. It is an observation of events that always happen under specific conditions along with an explanation. That makes it stronger than a law. You surely know of Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation. That is not 100% correct and it has been improved by Einstein's General Relativity. General Relativity is also sometimes called the Theory of Gravity. It is an observation along with an explanation. It is superior to Newton's law since his used what some called "spooky reaction at a distance". No one really knew why or how gravity works. Einstein's theory explains quite a few of those questions.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Okay, so you do not know what a scientific theory is. You are quite incorrect. In the sciences a theory is as good as it gets. Theories if anything outrank laws. Laws are merely observations of events that always occur under specific conditions. By that definition evolution is a law. It is always observed, just as gravity is. But evolution is even better than a mere law. It is an observation of events that always happen under specific conditions along with an explanation. That makes it stronger than a law. You surely know of Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation. That is not 100% correct and it has been improved by Einstein's General Relativity. General Relativity is also sometimes called the Theory of Gravity. It is an observation along with an explanation. It is superior to Newton's law since his used what some called "spooky reaction at a distance". No one really knew why or how gravity works. Einstein's theory explains quite a few of those questions.

The explanation for the op has gone on for so many pages when it all comes down to one word.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I don't think I would find a definition like that for the word "selection" in any respectable dictionary. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction?


John

If two animals have different variations and one variation makes it easier for the individual with that variation to survive (say, more acute hearing so it is aware of approaching predators earlier) and the other variation makes it harder to survive (say, smaller than average lung capacity, leaving it less able to escape an attacking predator), then the individual with the beneficial variation will be more likely to be selected to pass on its genes (including the genes for that particular variation) simply because it hasn't been killed and is alive to create offspring.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
On one level of conceptualism your statement is ok. But on a more precisely level we could say that the fact that people share subjective experience might clearly imply some objective or communal relationship between such experiences; nevertheless, more precisely, they're shared subjective experience, and not true experiences of the objective world outside creature-experience.



John

How do you know that two people have shared the exact same subjective experience?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
The "theory" of evolution isn't speaking of evolution itself or else it wouldn't be called a "theory" (ToE). A "theory" speaks of something like a proposition, or hypothesis.

On the other hand, we know for a fact that evolution occurs, natural selection occurs.

The "theory" of evolution usually speaks of some all-encompassing idea that evolution itself explains the existence of things like brains and eyes and sentience. That's not the case. Another principle is required to go from a single-celled organism to something as complex as a human brain.

Which is not to deny evolution is involved. But something more than chance and random mutations is required.



John

When used in a scientific sense, "theory" doesn't just mean a hunch or something.

Evolution is Not Just a Theory: home
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
John, one could do a search and replace on your post and replace 'God' with slavery or foot binding or colonialism and it would be just as true and just as false as the original.

It's not clear to me from what you wrote above precisely what you're saying?




John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
When used in a scientific sense, "theory" doesn't just mean a hunch or something.

Evolution is Not Just a Theory: home

Since evolution is scientifically verified, it's no longer a theory. The "theory" of evolution is the fact of evolution extrapolated into a metaphysical proposition: no designer is necessary to explain the irony of man's unique position in the world. The proposition/theory has some scientific support, i.e., it is a scientific theory, but it is, and can be shown to be, false, in my opinion.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
On one level of conceptualism your statement is ok. But on a more precisely level we could say that the fact that people share subjective experience might clearly imply some objective or communal relationship between such experiences; nevertheless, more precisely, they're shared subjective experience, and not true experiences of the objective world outside creature-experience.​

How do you know that two people have shared the exact same subjective experience?

Naturally I don't. How could I? And I thought it was you who first implied shared experience suggested it (the shared experience) was objective?



John
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Since evolution is scientifically verified, it's no longer a theory. The "theory" of evolution is the fact of evolution extrapolated into a metaphysical proposition: no designer is necessary to explain the irony of man's unique position in the world. The proposition/theory has some scientific support, i.e., it is a scientific theory, but it is, and can be shown to be, false, in my opinion.



John


You cannot identify any flaw in ToE but
yet you are sure it is wrong.

Quite egotistical for one who has so little graso
of the subject matter to think he understands
ToE better than any scientist on earth.

How do you do that?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I will disregard your confusion about the
nature of a theory, other than to say that it is based on / fully consistent with DATA that
does in fact demonstrate the step by step
process involved in the development of life.

I deny neither that evolution occurs, nor that it's a step-by-step process leading to every single form and function of every single living organism on the planet. So in that sense I assume we're on the same sheet of music.

Where our beliefs might diverge is that I don't believe in a hard and fast arrow of time which would (the arrow of time) imply that evolutionary advance (say from single-celled organisms to mammals) occurs asymmetrically (from past to future). What this means, logically, is that the perception of "advance" from simple design (say a single-celled organism) to more advanced design (a human being) is, in Einstein's own parlance, an illusion.

What's actually occurring is that by experiencing the arrow of time moving from past to future, we're forced to postulate a theory for how organisms advance so propitiously, how they're becoming more and more advanced when the second law of thermodynamics would at least suggest the opposite.

But if the arrow of time is an illusion, as Einstein says it is, and as I believe to be the case, then the design of the human brain didn't really "develop" step-by-step as appears to be the case. It was part and parcel of the whole of a created world that came already packaged with every single evolutionary advance that will ever occur.

We sentient beings experience ourselves and our world traveling through space and time in one direction, from past to future, so that we're naturally prejudiced to think evolution provides the impetus for design modification (from past to future) when in truth it's merely the experiencing of the arrow of time moving from past to future that gives the strong perception that evolution is from simple to advanced when in truth it's only the asymmetrical perception that time is traveling from past to future that requires that scientist propose theories for how organisms move from more simple design to more advanced.


John
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Since evolution is scientifically verified, it's no longer a theory. The "theory" of evolution is the fact of evolution extrapolated into a metaphysical proposition: no designer is necessary to explain the irony of man's unique position in the world. The proposition/theory has some scientific support, i.e., it is a scientific theory, but it is, and can be shown to be, false, in my opinion.



John

Once again, "theory" when used in a scientific sense does NOT mean the same thing as when you're talking with your mates at a weekend barbecue.

Did you even read the link I provided?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Naturally I don't. How could I? And I thought it was you who first implied shared experience suggested it (the shared experience) was objective?



John

I was saying that if two people can measure their perceived world and they get the same result, then it is likely that what they are perceiving is an accurate representation of the objective reality that exists separately to their subjective perceptions of it.

Remember - subjective perceptions means that it is unique to the person experiencing it. Objective means it is the same for all people, regardless of what they perceive it to be.

For example, a drunk person may perceive the world to be spinning all over the place. But if this drunk person was to measure the way he sees it spinning, and he compares his results with another drunk person who also sees the world spinning, they would find that the way each of the saw the spin disagrees with the other person's experience. That is because the perception of the world spinning was entirely within their heads. The objectively real world was not spinning, at least not in the way they thought it was.

But if you get two people to measure the height of a tree, and they both get the same results, then that indicates that there is some objective truth about the world that we can measure, and we can know that it is more than just our subjective interpretation of the world.

In short, if two people share the same experience, then it indicates that it is likely that it is an OBJECTIVE experience, not a subjective one!
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
You cannot identify any flaw in ToE but
yet you are sure it is wrong.

Quite egotistical for one who has so little graso
of the subject matter to think he understands
ToE better than any scientist on earth.

How do you do that?

I don't know if you're familiar with Professor Richard Lewontin? But he's pretty much proven that the theory of evolution swallowed by armchair biologists is patently false.

One of his many proofs of the falseness of the generally accepted theory of natural selection is the fact that the general theory implies organisms that are adapted to environmental niches survive, while those that aren't don't, such that according to the general theory the environmental niche is the selecting factor.

But what Professor Lewontin argues is that the duality between an organism and its environment is an illusion. Environments don't exist until an organism determines, by it's design, what elements of the outside world even exist for it:

These are simple and obvious examples of the generality that it is the biology, indeed the genes, of an organism that determines its effective environment, by establishing the way in which external physical signals become incorporated into its reactions. The common external phenomena of the physical and biotic world pass through a transforming filter created by the peculiar biology of each species, and it is the output of this transformation that reaches the organism and is relevant to it. Plato’s metaphor of the cave is appropriate here. Whatever the autonomous processes of the outer world may be, they cannot be perceived by the organism. Its life is determined by the shadows on the wall, passed through a transforming medium of its own creation . . . The picture of evolution that postulates an autonomous external world of `niches’ into which organisms must fit by adaptation misses what is most characteristic of the history of life.

Richard Lewontin, The Triple Helix, p. 64-66.​

Professor Lewontin explains how every single element we consider a part of the outside world (environmental niches) is in fact only experienced if our genes say so. Even the existence of something like gravity, assumed to be an environmental force all living things must adapt to, is dependent on the genes of the organism:

A human being may have discovered the law of gravitation, but he certainly did not pass it. You cannot fight gravity. But that, in fact, is not true. A bacterium living in liquid does not feel gravity because it is so small and its buoyant properties free it from what is essentially a very weak force. But the size of a bacterium is a consequence of its genes, and so it is the genetic difference between us and bacteria that determines whether the force of gravitation is relevant to us.

Richard Lewontin, Biology as Ideology, p. 117.​

Lewontin explains how grass lowers the temperature where it exists, changes the dynamics of the soil by means of its roots, and literally creates an environment according to the dictates of its genes such that the genes can be said to create the environment by selecting what parts of the objective world it will use to create its environment, "The picture of evolution that postulates an autonomous external world of `niches’ into which organisms must fit by adaptation misses what is most characteristic of the history of life."



John
 
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ppp

Well-Known Member
It's not clear to me from what you wrote above precisely what you're saying?

When I pointed out that my rejection of god claims has nothing to do with my acceptance of the theory of evolution, your (bizarre) response was to start talking about the utility of god beliefs in ancient societies. As though that a) is (somehow) evidence of a god, and b) establishes a connection between my acceptance of the theory of evolution and my rejection of god claims. Both a) and b) are false.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I deny neither that evolution occurs, nor that it's a step-by-step process leading to every single form and function of every single living organism on the planet. So in that sense I assume we're on the same sheet of music.

Where our beliefs might diverge is that I don't believe in a hard and fast arrow of time which would (the arrow of time) imply that evolutionary advance (say from single-celled organisms to mammals) occurs asymmetrically (from past to future). What this means, logically, is that the perception of "advance" from simple design (say a single-celled organism) to more advanced design (a human being) is, in Einstein's own parlance, an illusion.

What's actually occurring is that by experiencing the arrow of time moving from past to future, we're forced to postulate a theory for how organisms advance so propitiously, how they're becoming more and more advanced when the second law of thermodynamics would at least suggest the opposite.

But if the arrow of time is an illusion, as Einstein says it is, and as I believe to be the case, then the design of the human brain didn't really "develop" step-by-step as appears to be the case. It was part and parcel of the whole of a created world that came already packaged with every single evolutionary advance that will ever occur.

We sentient beings experience ourselves and our world traveling through space and time in one direction, from past to future, so that we're naturally prejudiced to think evolution provides the impetus for design modification (from past to future) when in truth it's merely the experiencing of the arrow of time moving from past to future that gives the strong perception that evolution is from simple to advanced when in truth it's only the asymmetrical perception that time is traveling from past to future that requires that scientist propose theories for how organisms move from more simple design to more advanced.


John

Interesting. ( noted that you offer no flaw, other than mentioning the thermodynamics thing )

I actually would like in a friendly way to guide
you to a better understanding of ToE.

You iam sure would like to continually refine your ideas through improved understanding,
as we all do.

So let me try two points of your presentation, in a good faith effort, banking on your good faith
in reading and trying to see what I am saying.

FWIW, and reference you use to cross check my words- as properly you ought- will confirm what I say.

First, on the progression you speak of.

It just is not like that. Evolution does not do
progress in any human culture sense.

It simply follows what works, this generation.

Is the cheetah not more advanced than the
common salamander, though, let alone a bacterium?

Look at who is successful! Incredible numbers of bacteria, what an absolutely stupendous life form! Fantastically successful.

The cheetah is rare, on its way to extinction.
What kind of progress is that?

ALSO- observe that many life forms
"degenerate" from a human poverty.

Behold the snake, whose ancestors had legs,
ears and eyelids. Butvsee how successful they
are for thiscseeming degeneration.

The early amphibians includrd big robust things
that foreshadowed the crocodile ( see parallel evolution).

Now we have tiny feeble colorless blind cave salamanders. Some progress!

Many many other examples.

As for the thermodynamics argument,
other poster might like to take that on.

First though, its extensively dealt with on
various websites, and should adequately
show wherein this law does not apply.

But ever so briefly, your fish, say, gets its
energy from its food, not being a closed system, after all.

If a descendent grows a little larger protolung,
as surely some did, it gets its energy the same way, grows a bigger lung and finds it can stay
out of water longer than mommy could.

Much to its advantage.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Once again, "theory" when used in a scientific sense does NOT mean the same thing as when you're talking with your mates at a weekend barbecue.

Did you even read the link I provided?

Yes I read the link. But once science confirms something through repeated and accepted tests, the scientific community considers it a fact, and not a theory. Those who don't accept the confirmation might cling to the term "theory," but those who know its a fact don't consider it a theory any more.



John
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I don't know if you're familiar with Professor Richard Lewontin? But he's pretty much proven that the theory of evolution swallowed by armchair biologists is patently false.

One of his many proofs of the falseness of the generally accepted theory of natural selection is the fact that the general theory implies organisms that are adapted to environmental niches survive, while those that aren't don't, such that according to the general theory the environmental niche is the selecting factor.

But what Professor Lewontin argues is that the duality between an organism and its environment is an illusion. Environments don't exist until an organism determines, by it's design, what elements of the outside world even exist for it:

These are simple and obvious examples of the generality that it is the biology, indeed the genes, of an organism that determines its effective environment, by establishing the way in which external physical signals become incorporated into its reactions. The common external phenomena of the physical and biotic world pass through a transforming filter created by the peculiar biology of each species, and it is the output of this transformation that reaches the organism and is relevant to it. Plato’s metaphor of the cave is appropriate here. Whatever the autonomous processes of the outer world may be, they cannot be perceived by the organism. Its life is determined by the shadows on the wall, passed through a transforming medium of its own creation . . . The picture of evolution that postulates an autonomous external world of `niches’ into which organisms must fit by adaptation misses what is most characteristic of the history of life.

Richard Lewontin, The Triple Helix, p. 64-66.​

Professor Lewontin explains how every single element we consider a part of the outside world (environmental niches) is in fact only experienced if our genes say so. Even the existence of something like gravity, assumed to be an environmental force all living things must adapt to, is dependent on the genes of the organism:

A human being may have discovered the law of gravitation, but he certainly did not pass it. You cannot fight gravity. But that, in fact, is not true. A bacterium living in liquid does not feel gravity because it is so small and its buoyant properties free it from what is essentially a very weak force. But the size of a bacterium is a consequence of its genes, and so it is the genetic difference between us and bacteria that determines whether the force of gravitation is relevant to us.

Richard Lewontin, Biology as Ideology, p. 117.​

Lewontin explains how grass lowers the temperature where it exists, changes the dynamics of the soil by means of its roots, and literally creates an environment according to the dictates of its genes such that the genes can be said to create the environment by selecting what parts of the objective world it will use to create its environment, "The picture of evolution that postulates an autonomous external world of `niches’ into which organisms must fit by adaptation misses what is most characteristic of the history of life."



John

Nowhere does he state nor imply that
he is speaking about anything "generally accepted".

You injected that yourself.

His audience in such a writing is not goingvto
be evolutionary biologists, paleontologists etc.

No doubt some casual / lay readers about ToE
would have the impression he speaks of that
evolution is about adapting to pre existing niches.

It is plainly obvious to a more serious student that such is only partly the case.

We all know that ye beaver creates its environment, and that organism in general
do modify their environments.

He is simply addressing common misconceptions about ToE, not identifying
any flaw in it.

Kind of like what I am trying to do for you,
uphill as you are determined to make it . :D
 
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