Why I support Israel...and why you should, too

[beenie]

seems like only mistake Palestinian make is to be Muslims. if they were Hindus then our Hindu friends would have utterly different approach to issue. funny that some Hindus complaint about so-called Muslims for what they did centuries ago though they have the same mentality towards Muslims today. it is sad that there is no dignity and no humanity in their reasoning. they are hateful and as revengeful as those oppressive people who offered India nothing but bloodshed, fear and hatred

.

yeah, it seems it's acceptable for bloodshed to happen as long as it's Muslims being killed. after all, our great, great, great, great, great, great grandfathers MIGHT have participated in SOME war that non-Muslims died in at the hands of Muslims.

maybe.

sounds about right.

 

[Rakhel]

Okay where's my violin

 

[beenie]

Okay where's my violin

lol never mind.

anyway, my point is...we've listened to Ordeet's story about the massacre of an undetermined number of Hindus many many years ago.

we got off-topic.

still wondering what this has to do with his support for Israel. if he supports Israel's cause, great. if he supports Israel because some Muslims killed Hindus a long time ago...well, that's not a convincing argument anymore.

...ok, never mind my never mind.

i guess Muslims can never feel they've been attacked, but Hindus and Jews can. ummm ok. i'll get out my violin for the Hindus and Jews too. fair enough?

 

[sandandfoam]

Just as speculation, maybe there is some appeal to the belief those whom we fear chose to be dangerous and/or hostile out of superstition or religious radicalism.

At face value, it certainly seems more appealing then the suggestion that one may have some responsibility for that hostility in some way. Sometimes I wish the very nation of country were disposed and done with, I swear.

Professor Zimbardo in discussing the power to create "The Enemy" outlines how "The process begins with creating stereotyped conceptions of the other, dehumanized perceptions of the other, the other as worthless, the other as all-powerful, the other as demonic, the other as an abstract monster, the other as a fundamental threat to our cherished values and beliefs" (The Lucifer Effect p.11)
I'm with you regarding countries LuisDantas

 

[jml03]

Israeli intelligence is phenomenal. I read in a book somewhere that they knew Bill Clinton was having an affair long before any of us did and they have recorded conversations of he and Monica Lewinsky. You know, I am a Christian and I always looked at Israel as this poor little defenseless country. Boy, was I ever wrong. There is one thing I have to say that seems like possibly a good idea - if I read it correctly - and that is people have to go into the military for two years when they come of age, mandatory. It is considered your service to your country. Personally, coming from a family with MANY in the military, I think it might not be so bad of a thing. In our country we have so many freedoms, and one that has always bothered me is people that will not support our troops and salute the flag that represents the freedoms that are provided to them. But, that's a completely different subject.

 

[Rakhel]

saluting the flag and supporting the troops are two separate things.

 

[LuisDantas]

I must agree. Troops are military people, and they certianly deserve respect and support.

It does not necessarily follow that they should be employed. In fact, the supreme way of supporting the military is to make their combat action unnecessary.

As for flags, I must admit, they simply don't mean much to me.

 

[Badran]

and one that has always bothered me is people that will not support our troops and salute the flag that represents the freedoms that are provided to them. But, that's a completely different subject.

Like have been said, supporting the troops and supporting the flag are two different things.

Also, why should i support the troops when i disapprove of what they are doing? How so? The troops are not by default heros nor are they always worthy of respect. Sometimes they are heros and sometimes they are criminals.

Also, like Luis, flags don't mean much to me neither personally.

 

[YmirGF]

Well, just ahead of things YmirGF, i just want to say that i have a lot of respect for you, but i find this and the following posts to be extremely biased and generalizing and not at all a fair assessment of the situation, and a rather disturbing outlook on things.

Thank you for your kind intro, but find your response less than surprising. Why do you think that is?

What does your impression on Islam has to do with supporting Zionism?

No doubt you will find it hard to follow, but reading about the relentless persecution of Jews by Muslims (and later by Europeans) I began to understand the need for Zionism. Given that no one treated the Jewish people especially well, it is incumbent on them to do something about it. Through negotiations, Jewish leaders implored the Allied powers, who had seized North Africa and a large chunk of the Middle East at the closing of WWII, to let them have a homeland in their old stomping grounds. You have to understand that the Allies must have realized that this action would not go down well in the Arab world, but again, that was part of the price they had to pay for backing the Germans/Axis. It was as deliberate an act as was the Muslims building of Al-Aqsa Mosque/The Dome of the Rock and meant to serve as a permanent reminder that the Muslim control of the area had been broken, just as the Dome of the Rock serves as a permanent reminder to Jews that they had come under the dominion of Muslim rule. I fully support the creation AND maintenance of the thorn in the side of the Ummah, which is Zionism....

...but on the way to ideological world domination, a funny thing happened. You see, in our lust for freedom as we saw it, we grew addicted to an invention called the internal combustion engine. The conquered nations had vast reservoirs of oil and we set about acquiring that oil. Oddly, we could have just annexed those nations, while we had the chance and took the oil and left those countries with nothing. Instead we entered into partnerships that ensured the oil would flow - at a price. And what a price it has been. Now decades later, our former enemies are richer than god and yet still cannot create their own sustainable economies without oil, no matter how much they rig the Islamic finance game. They are, in effect, as addicted as we are, only they are addicted to the obscene wealth that was only barely earned.

Personally speaking, I think the western businesses and leaders made the same mistake that Muhammad's original adversaries first made. You see, they didn't take him particularly seriously, just as the west did not take Islam seriously. The sheiks and kings in the mid-east were tolerably pliable, so it seemed to be no big deal - the oil was flowing and everyone was smiling... ...when suddenly on the way to economic and consumerism Nirvana a funny looking fellow called Yassar Arafat came along...

At first, no one payed him much attention, but then suddenly the whole world was watching. For the first time we heard of a group of people called "Palestinians" and many may remember one of the Redgrave girls billing and cooing about the injustice of plight of the "Palestinian people". Yassar Arafat rediscovered that by behaving badly, people pay attention and many, many Muslims have taken his example to heart. (I could go on, but I have other things I want to do right now, lol.)

What about their crimes?

What about the crimes of Hamas, Hezbully, Fatah, the Syrians, Jordon, Egypt, Iran, Iraq... etc... etc... etc... Cry me a river.

I may address your post further, but life beckons and I have things to do.

 

[beenie]

Thank you for your kind intro, but find your response less than surprising. Why do you think that is?

No doubt you will find it hard to follow, but reading about the relentless persecution of Jews by Muslims (and later by Europeans) I began to understand the need for Zionism. Given that no one treated the Jewish people especially well, it is incumbent on them to do something about it. Through negotiations, Jewish leaders implored the Allied powers, who had seized North Africa and a large chunk of the Middle East at the closing of WWII, to let them have a homeland in their old stomping grounds. You have to understand that the Allies must have realized that this action would not go down well in the Arab world, but again, that was part of the price they had to pay for backing the Germans/Axis. It was as deliberate an act as was the Muslims building of Al-Aqsa Mosque/The Dome of the Rock and meant to serve as a permanent reminder that the Muslim control of the area had been broken, just as the Dome of the Rock serves as a permanent reminder to Jews that they had come under the dominion of Muslim rule. I fully support the creation AND maintenance of the thorn in the side of the Ummah, which is Zionism....

...but on the way to ideological world domination, a funny thing happened. You see, in our lust for freedom as we saw it, we grew addicted to an invention called the internal combustion engine. The conquered nations had vast reservoirs of oil and we set about acquiring that oil. Oddly, we could have just annexed those nations, while we had the chance and took the oil and left those countries with nothing. Instead we entered into partnerships that ensured the oil would flow - at a price. And what a price it has been. Now decades later, our former enemies are richer than god and yet still cannot create their own sustainable economies without oil, no matter how much they rig the Islamic finance game. They are, in effect, as addicted as we are, only they are addicted to the obscene wealth that was only barely earned.

Personally speaking, I think the western businesses and leaders made the same mistake that Muhammad's original adversaries first made. You see, they didn't take him particularly seriously, just as the west did not take Islam seriously. The sheiks and kings in the mid-east were tolerably pliable, so it seemed to be no big deal - the oil was flowing and everyone was smiling... ...when suddenly on the way to economic and consumerism Nirvana a funny looking fellow called Yassar Arafat came along...

At first, no one payed him much attention, but then suddenly the whole world was watching. For the first time we heard of a group of people called "Palestinians" and many may remember one of the Redgrave girls billing and cooing about the injustice of plight of the "Palestinian people". Yassar Arafat rediscovered that by behaving badly, people pay attention and many, many Muslims have taken his example to heart. (I could go on, but I have other things I want to do right now, lol.)

What about the crimes of Hamas, Hezbully, Fatah, the Syrians, Jordon, Egypt, Iran, Iraq... etc... etc... etc... Cry me a river.

I may address your post further, but life beckons and I have things to do.

again, two wrongs don't make a right...i've read that many times here. why do we point our fingers at the other guy? both sides have committed heinous crimes. no denying that.

 

[Badran]

Thank you for your kind intro

You're welcome, its not just an intro though, i meant it.

but find your response less than surprising. Why do you think that is?

I don't know. May be because you think that just because i'm a muslim, i would automatically find your support of Israel disturbing.

No doubt you will find it hard to follow, but reading about the relentless persecution of Jews by Muslims (and later by Europeans) I began to understand the need for Zionism. Given that no one treated the Jewish people especially well, it is incumbent on them to do something about it. Through negotiations, Jewish leaders implored the Allied powers, who had seized North Africa and a large chunk of the Middle East at the closing of WWII, to let them have a homeland in their old stomping grounds. You have to understand that the Allies must have realized that this action would not go down well in the Arab world, but again, that was part of the price they had to pay for backing the Germans/Axis. It was as deliberate an act as was the Muslims building of Al-Aqsa Mosque/The Dome of the Rock and meant to serve as a permanent reminder that the Muslim control of the area had been broken, just as the Dome of the Rock serves as a permanent reminder to Jews that they had come under the dominion of Muslim rule. I fully support the creation AND maintenance of the thorn in the side of the Ummah, which is Zionism....

1) I don't know how are you comparing between persecution of muslims, and between what happened with Germany. Its no where near the same, and it wasn't always that way between muslims and jews.

2) The need for jewish people around the world to have a nation, and to support each other after what happened to them, is completely understandable. However, that doesn't come even close to justifying invasion and taking land, and the killing going on for decades, and until today Palestinians are still being cornered into a smaller area and Israel isn't stopping.

3) How is it justifiable to punish the entire muslim population with the "thorn" in their side as you put it, for what their leaders once have done? Were all muslims supporting the Germans? Do you think thats the way we should go about in the world? Do Americans deserve to be killed and derived out of their houses, and suffer horrors just for what G. Bush has done?

...but on the way to ideological world domination, a funny thing happened. You see, in our lust for freedom as we saw it, we grew addicted to an invention called the internal combustion engine. The conquered nations had vast reservoirs of oil and we set about acquiring that oil. Oddly, we could have just annexed those nations, while we had the chance and took the oil and left those countries with nothing. Instead we entered into partnerships that ensured the oil would flow - at a price. And what a price it has been. Now decades later, our former enemies are richer than god and yet still cannot create their own sustainable economies without oil, no matter how much they rig the Islamic finance game. They are, in effect, as addicted as we are, only they are addicted to the obscene wealth that was only barely earned.

I'm finding it hard to understand something. Do you think this is right or wrong?

Personally speaking, I think the western businesses and leaders made the same mistake that Muhammad's original adversaries first made. You see, they didn't take him particularly seriously, just as the west did not take Islam seriously. The sheiks and kings in the mid-east were tolerably pliable, so it seemed to be no big deal - the oil was flowing and everyone was smiling... ...when suddenly on the way to economic and consumerism Nirvana a funny looking fellow called Yassar Arafat came along...

So its Islam all along and Muhammad that caused all these horrors? Its really all about muslims and their attitude that caused this invasion and the struggle between the Israel and Palestinians?

In other words, resisting Israel was a bad thing, and therefore Palestinians deserve what they get?

What about the crimes of Hamas, Hezbully, Fatah, the Syrians, Jordon, Egypt, Iran, Iraq... etc... etc... etc... Cry me a river.

What is this supposed to mean? Iraq for example once invaded Kuwait, so its okay for Israel to invade Palestine?

Also, the difference is that i do not support Hamas and the like, While you like you put it fully support Israel.

 

[arimoff]

YMir why should they? Has the Israeli government stopped taking their land yet? They kept taking more and more of their land and now they're trying to take Gaza too. You honestly think that's reasonable? Israel can do whatever it pleases, but the Palestinians are the ones who should comprimise all the time? I swear, Zionists don't use their brains.

Taking whose land? Palestinians? last time I checked Palestine or Palestinian has nothing to do with Arab or Muslim. You are probably blind this forum has many threads where users brought plenty of prove that Jews bought land witch already belongs to them but yet you seem to not notice it for some reason, do I hear double standard?

 

[LuisDantas]

Isn't much of the current conflict related to the lands that were not bought, but instead gained as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, however?

Here is the UN proposed territory for both States in 1947/1948, and here is a display of its effect on Israeli territory.

Not to defend the military challenge on Israel back then, far from it. But it was definitely a decisive factor in the current state of things, and it must be recognized as such if peace is seriously pursued.

Of course, both sides of the conflict ought to learn to live on and step out of the shadow of what happened over sixty years ago. On the other hand, that is not something easy to accomplish if you happen to be part of a large group of civilians whose homes were destroyed. Is it any wonder that some of them end up resorting to violence?

 

[beenie]

Isn't much of the current conflict related to the lands that were not bought, but instead gained as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, however?

Here is the UN proposed territory for both States in 1947/1948, and here is a display of its effect on Israeli territory.

Not to defend the military challenge on Israel back then, far from it. But it was definitely a decisive factor in the current state of things, and it must be recognized as such if peace is seriously pursued.

Of course, both sides of the conflict ought to learn to live on and step out of the shadow of what happened over sixty years ago. On the other hand, that is not something easy to accomplish if you happen to be part of a large group of civilians whose homes were destroyed. Is it any wonder that some of them end up resorting to violence?

this is an excellent point.
neither side is willing to put the past behind them and aim for a peaceful resolution. it's not one-sided as so many think it is.

 

[Cypress]

I always thought that when Jews & Palestinians would have entered into negotiations before formation of a country in that region, negotiations would perhaps have taken such a long time that the country that is known as Israel today would probably only exist since 2 weeks - but in these 2 weeks there would have been peace...

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Occupation? Naaah..

 

[LuisDantas]

LOL. I can't help it, it is a good joke, Fatima.

Cypress, if the History as presented in Wikipedia is even marginally accurate, it seems to me that the Messiah that the Jews expect might well come before Israel would ever exist.

Ironically proper, that I'll freely grant...

 

[nameless]

nameless, how is this related to the topic?

I don't mean your last replies, but the issue of Hindus/muslims in general?

This thread is supposed to be giving reasons to support Israel.

that's history.
how is Ordeet, residing in America, a victim of Islam?

i was responding to a post, hindus in india were victims of islam.

 

[beenie]

nameless, are you saying that i insulted you?
i most certainly did not.

i was replying to Ordeet. i never said Hindus were never victims of MUSLIMS. i'm asking how Ordeet is currently a victim of ISLAM? he might be the victim of MUSLIMS...

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Luis,

I resent the insinuation. I'm no condoner of terrorism, mister.

It just happens that I'm not naive about the effectiveness (or moral sense) of military, either. For that matter, I'm not that naive about what terrorism is, either.

Your worldview defends terrorism while condemning a democratic country that fights it. You still have not condemned the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah. Their actions are evil and you can't say that.

You display the moral blindness of an ideologue.