Why I think there is one right religion

[Sabour]

Friend One-answer,

YES

Guess you are a man of One Answer; you give no choice.
Take it or leave it!

That is a mistake one does when he first comes to the forums, I am not saying that am wrong though

Well suppose wanted to take it, how and what does your God do to lure me to his fold?

You mean as proof ? Or you mean what would you benefit ?

Love & rgds

 

[Sabour]

Different scriptures, different options in just about any decision, different philosophies, different walks of life, different perspectives on right and wrong, different culture....

There are things that there are not acceptable in any culture. Good deeds are good deeds everywhere. It is okay to adapt cultural values as long as they don't go against my religion. So am still enjoying different opinions. But something I don't even bother thinking of because it is against my religion. And I know that they are the better for me. This is how much I trust God.

 

[Sabour]

I'm only telling you what He told me. I think it's because God knows how humans tend to worship words. Sometimes they even come to think that words are 'infallible', which is sure to confuse them.

In that case how he talked to you, didn't you worship words?

Oh, no. The problem is that each scripture-believer interprets the holy words in his own way. But he thinks he's not really interpreting. He thinks that he's just reading God's plain and obvious meaning.

Look if I said: "You people should be good to each other. Love each other"
95 would know the meaning I wanted, 5 will think that I said you should have sexual relations. I mean come on ..... Look at this explicit statement: Muhammad peace be upon him is the seal of the prophets... a group goes to say that seal means a ring.

But this is delusion. Words don't mean things. Only people can mean things.

So when people talk, they say words. you can interpret them differently. what makes words any better than writings ?

Really, you're just not listening to me. Haven't I told you that any prophet who claims to do miracles is an untrue prophet? God doesn't do magic. So any prophet who claimed to do Godly magic is confused and mistaken about his own prophethood.

So you don't believe at prophets at all ?

Huh? How could I refute Muhammad's personal opinion about the nature of God? You can't even refute the two attributes of God which I have given you so far:

1) God does not send down actual words to mankind.

2) God does not do miracles, either directly or through his prophets.


Can you refute either of these attributes which I offer about God?

If you ask God with a pure and honest heart, He will tell you.

I see what you did there.

Scriptures are prohibited. It's not that we don't need them. We need not to have them.

People begin to worship words and they lose sight of the God Search. That's not good.

That is the test for them. How many Christian do you know left Christianity when they read the bible? They knew that what was preached was not what is written.

 

[Sabour]

Consider you have a canvas and some red paint. You fling the paint on the canvas and see big red blotch, and a lot of little blotches. None of these blotches is the same size, there is no uniformity whatsoever in the placement of these blotches, and there is no shape to which they are all conforming. Chaos, yes?

But, consider the paint is all the same color. Its all the same consistency. Its all there for the same reason (you put it there). The canvas itself is all uniform in color and even consists of very precisely laid out threads in nice neat little rows. Order.

It doesn't make a difference which example you use. This is ALWAYS the case. There is ALWAYS order and ALWAYS chaos. Because order and chaos are matters of perception and only exist in our mind.

Thus, the fact that the universe is 'orderly' does not imply that it came from intelligence at all, and only implies that intelligence is observing it (us).

What is the relation between your example and the universe ?

In your example you are not controlling the variables.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

In that case how he talked to you, didn't you worship words?

Oh, no. God doesn't speak to me in physical words. He just sort of infuses me with His Great Truth.

Look if I said: "You people should be good to each other. Love each other"
95 would know the meaning I wanted, 5 will think that I said you should have sexual relations. I mean come on ..... Look at this explicit statement: Muhammad peace be upon him is the seal of the prophets... a group goes to say that seal means a ring.

If you're arguing that words have a clear and objective meaning which all people can know, then I disagree with you.

So when people talk, they say words. you can interpret them differently. what makes words any better than writings ?

I don't understand. You think that spoken and written words are different somehow?

In English, 'words' usually refers to both speaking and writing.

So you don't believe at prophets at all ?

Of course I believe in prophets. I am a prophet of God myself.

I just think most people are confused about the nature of prophets. They don't know any more about God than you and I do. They can't do miracles. They can't foretell the future.

The only reason that I myself am somewhat special as a prophet is that I'm able to convey God's Meaning to other people a bit more clearly than most other prophets.

I see what you did there.

I'm impressed that you are paying such close attention.

That is the test for them. How many Christian do you know left Christianity when they read the bible? They knew that what was preached was not what is written.

Most of them don't leave Christianity. They just realize -- as they mature -- that everyone has to interpret the scripture for themselves.

 

[Sir Doom]

What is the relation between your example and the universe ?

The exact same phenomenon happens when you see the universe as 'orderly'. YOU are adding that quality with perception. YOU are recognizing patterns. And for every pattern you recognize, I can name something that lacks a pattern. The universe is as much 'orderly' as it is 'chaotic', because those things don't actually exist outside of our mind.

Thus, the 'orderliness' of the universe is a very poor reason to believe that it must have come from an intelligence, because then you have to explain why there is any chaos at all.

In your example you are not controlling the variables.

Yes I am.

 

[Sabour]

Oh, no. God doesn't speak to me in physical words. He just sort of infuses me with His Great Truth.

Than God must do this with us all. No ?

If you're arguing that words have a clear and objective meaning which all people can know, then I disagree with you

.

But when you have a whole book talking about an idea, implicit statements will be clear, especially if it were repeated again and again.

I don't understand. You think that spoken and written words are different somehow?

No, anyways drop that you answered it with your first line.

In English, 'words' usually refers to both speaking and writing.

I know that, forget about it you answered it with your first line.

Of course I believe in prophets. I am a prophet of God myself.

I just think most people are confused about the nature of prophets. They don't know any more about God than you and I do. They can't do miracles. They can't foretell the future.

The only reason that I myself am somewhat special as a prophet is that I'm able to convey God's Meaning to other people a bit more clearly than most other prophets.

By other prophets you meant other people? the 7 billion?

I'm impressed that you are paying such close attention.

Well you are one of those who I like talking to. Frankly at some point I decided to leave the forum, I only stayed at that time because of you.

Most of them don't leave Christianity. They just realize -- as they mature -- that everyone has to interpret the scripture for themselves.

This is because the bible is not the Injil and it got messed up with people's writings.

 

[Sabour]

The exact same phenomenon happens when you see the universe as 'orderly'. YOU are adding that quality with perception. YOU are recognizing patterns. And for every pattern you recognize, I can name something that lacks a pattern. The universe is as much 'orderly' as it is 'chaotic', because those things don't actually exist outside of our mind.

There is no lack of patterns. There is a lack of human understanding and ability to discover it.

Yes I am.

No. There is air interfering, you didn't throw the paint at equal proportions, the paint may not be homogeneous, the canvas is not perfectly made. You can never control all the variables

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Than God must do this with us all. No ?

Yes. We're all prophets, just as we are all artists. But some are born with more talent and with a passion to pursue that talent. So some artists are better than others, just as some prophets are better than others. But of course it's mostly just personal opinion -- about which prophet is better.

But when you have a whole book talking about an idea, implicit statements will be clear, especially if it were repeated again and again.

That's a good point. But my sense is that we shouldn't worship heroes -- shouldn't focus on one teacher or one Book. Maybe another person can guide us in the general direction of God, but I don't think we should allow another man to tell us the nature of God. The best God is the God we find ourselves.

By other prophets you meant other people? the 7 billion?

Yes. I think anyone can teach us something new about God.

Well you are one of those who I like talking to. Frankly at some point I decided to leave the forum, I only stayed at that time because of you.

I'm pleased to hear that and a little surprised. Anyway, this is a rough place. You have to make allowances for the way people are. But there's nothing like debate to help a person grow stronger. Scar tissue is stronger than virgin flesh, after all.

I hope you stay. You have a good attitude about learning, I think.

 

[Sir Doom]

There is no lack of patterns. There is a lack of human understanding and ability to discover it.

Please explain to me what you mean by 'orderly' when you describe the universe. Something tells me we are operating on different understandings of this term.

No. There is air interfering, you didn't throw the paint at equal proportions, the paint may not be homogeneous, the canvas is not perfectly made. You can never control all the variables

Are you suggesting that my lack of control is responsible for the chaos I am seeing? In other words, I am accidentally circumventing God's will for order in the universe?

 

[Sabour]

Yes. We're all prophets, just as we are all artists. But some are born with more talent and with a passion to pursue that talent.

But isn't this unjust? Some are born with more talent?

So some artists are better than others, just as some prophets are better than others. But of course it's mostly just personal opinion -- about which prophet is better.

What do you think about atheist? Are they not hearing at all?

That's a good point. But my sense is that we shouldn't worship heroes -- shouldn't focus on one teacher or one Book.

That's why in Islam we say that all prophets came with the same massage which is worshiping God, the creator, and not the creation.

Maybe another person can guide us in the general direction of God, but I don't think we should allow another man to tell us the nature of God. The best God is the God we find ourselves.

Can you elaborate more on the difference between guided in the general direction and allowing another man to tell us the nature of God?

Yes. I think anyone can teach us something new about God.

Hmmm... Did I benefit you with anything?

I'm pleased to hear that and a little surprised. Anyway, this is a rough place. You have to make allowances for the way people are. But there's nothing like debate to help a person grow stronger. Scar tissue is stronger than virgin flesh, after all.

Noted

I hope you stay. You have a good attitude about learning, I think.

At the current time I am having a hard time between the forums and my studies. I have too much to do in the university. Once am done I will be more involved.

 

[Sabour]

Please explain to me what you mean by 'orderly' when you describe the universe. Something tells me we are operating on different understandings of this term.

Day,night,orbits,formation of rain. Somethings like that.

Are you suggesting that my lack of control is responsible for the chaos I am seeing? In other words, I am accidentally circumventing God's will for order in the universe?

I am saying that the lack of your control of the variables which affect the canvas experiment are the reason you see chaos. It has nothing to do with the universe.

Now I am confused what we were talking about

 

[Sir Doom]

Day,night,orbits,formation of rain. Somethings like that.

These are examples of order in the universe? Good.

Day and night would be more orderly if they each lasted the same amount of time as each other, and if their length remained constant throughout the year.

Orbits would be more orderly if they were perfect circles and the same distance from one another and if each planet revolved around the Sun at such a rate that they all stayed in line during each revolution.

The formation of rain would be more orderly if clouds all formed the exact same shapes every time. It would also be more orderly if the same amount of water evaporated at the same time and made the same clouds to pour the same rain on the same places.

But none of these things is true. And all of these things illustrate a lack of order within the examples you present. A lack of order is chaos.

I assure you I can do this with ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING you present.

I am saying that the lack of your control of the variables which affect the canvas experiment are the reason you see chaos. It has nothing to do with the universe.

By that logic, if I had controlled the variables I would be unable to see chaos. Which is ludicrous.

Now I am confused what we were talking about

What we are talking about is your assertion that the universe is 'orderly' and that this 'orderliness' implies intelligent design (God).

I am explaining why it only implies an intelligent observer (humans).

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

When the credibility of available evidence is indistinguishable i think its illogical to claim one religion to be better than another .

 

[Nakosis]

When the credibility of available evidence is indistinguishable i think its illogical to claim one religion to be better than another .

Druidism?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

But isn't this unjust? Some are born with more talent?

And some have more strength or beauty or intelligence. Unjust? I don't know. I have walked through children's hospital wards and seen those who are born with dread diseases, missing limbs, whatever. If I were going to cry about injustice, I'd cry for those kids and not for a prophet born with mediocre prophet talents.

What do you think about atheist? Are they not hearing at all?

I don't really believe in atheists. I mean that I don't take such labeling very seriously. The atheist/theist wars really bore me.

Can you elaborate more on the difference between guided in the general direction and allowing another man to tell us the nature of God?

I think it's a mistake to believe that one individual man can tell you about God without the possibility of error. I think that Abraham, Jesus and Muhammad were like all the rest of us prophets. Sometimes they were truly connected to God and sometimes they were letting their own egos speak to us, rather than always delivering us God's Own Truth.

Hmmm... Did I benefit you with anything?

Oh, yes. I'm learning how a particular Muslim Lebanese student, living and studying in Cyprus, thinks about God and the world.

At the current time I am having a hard time between the forums and my studies. I have too much to do in the university. Once am done I will be more involved.

I understand that. If you're going to undertake college, you should focus on it and suck everything you can from it. But don't forget to turn back to debate when you have time. Casting your truth against other truths -- that's the best way to develop one's thought, I really believe.

 

[Sabour]

These are examples of order in the universe? Good.

Day and night would be more orderly if they each lasted the same amount of time as each other, and if their length remained constant throughout the year.

Nope. You are setting your own timeline. The timeline of the order is not a day.

A solstice is an astronomical event that occurs twice each year as the Sun reaches its highest or lowest excursion relative to the celestial equator on the celestial sphere. The solstices, together with the equinoxes, are connected with the seasons. In many cultures the solstices mark either the beginning or the midpoint of winter and summer.

Orbits would be more orderly if they were perfect circles and the same distance from one another and if each planet revolved around the Sun at such a rate that they all stayed in line during each revolution.

Again you are setting your own rules.

The formation of rain would be more orderly if clouds all formed the exact same shapes every time. It would also be more orderly if the same amount of water evaporated at the same time and made the same clouds to pour the same rain on the same places.

30:48 It is Allah who sends the winds, and they stir the clouds and spread them in the sky however He wills, and He makes them fragments so you see the rain emerge from within them. And when He causes it to fall upon whom He wills of His servants, immediately they rejoice

FIRST STAGE: "It is Allah Who sends the winds..."

Countless air bubbles formed by the foaming of the oceans continuously burst and cause water particles to be ejected towards the sky. These particles, which are rich in salt, are then carried away by winds and rise upward in the atmosphere. These particles, which are called aerosols, function as water traps, and form cloud drops by collecting around the water vapour themselves, which rises from the seas as tiny droplets.

SECOND STAGE: ".... which stir up clouds which He spreads about the sky however He wills. He forms them into dark clumps..."

The clouds are formed from water vapour that condenses around the salt crystals or dust particles in the air. Because the water droplets in these clouds are very small (with a diameter between 0.01 and 0.02 mm), the clouds are suspended in the air, and spread across the sky. Thus, the sky is covered in clouds.


The above illustration shows the water droplets being released into the air. This is the first stage in the formation of rain. After that, the water droplets in the newly formed clouds will be suspended in the air and then condense to form rain. All of these stages are related in the Qur'an.



THIRD STAGE: "…and you see the rain come pouring out from the middle of them"

The water particles that surround salt crystals and dust particles thicken and form raindrops, so, drops that become heavier than the air leave the clouds and start to fall to the ground as rain.

As already discussed, every stage in the formation of rain is related in the verses of the Qur'an. Furthermore, these stages are explained in exactly the right sequence. Just as with many other natural phenomena on the Earth, Allah gave the most correct explanation of this phenomenon, and made it known in the Qur'an centuries before it was discovered.
In another verse, the following information is given about the formation of rain:

Have you not seen how Allah drives along the clouds, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it? And He sends down from the sky mountain masses [of clouds] with cold hail in them, striking with it anyone He wills and averting it from anyone He wills. The brightness of His lightning almost blinds the sight. (Qur'an, 24:43)

Scientists studying cloud types came across surprising results with regards to the formation of rain clouds. Rain clouds are formed and shaped according to definite systems and stages. The stages of formation of one kind of rain cloud, cumulonimbus, are these:
1. STAGE, Being driven along: Clouds are carried along, that is, they are driven along, by the wind.


(A) Isolated small pieces of clouds (cumulonimbus clouds)
(B) When the small clouds join together, updrafts within the larger cloud increase. As a result, the cloud is stacked up.
2. STAGE, Joining: Then, small clouds (cumulonimbus clouds) driven along by the wind join together, forming a larger cloud.55

3. STAGE, Stacking: When the small clouds join together, updrafts within the larger cloud increase. The updrafts near the centre of the cloud are stronger than those near the edges. These updrafts cause the cloud body to grow vertically, so the cloud is stacked up. This vertical growth causes the cloud body to stretch into cooler regions of the atmosphere, where drops of water and hail formulate and begin to grow larger and larger. When these drops of water and hail become too heavy for the updrafts to support them, they begin to fall from the cloud as rain, hail, etc.56

 

[Sabour]

When the credibility of available evidence is indistinguishable i think its illogical to claim one religion to be better than another .

Who said that the credibility of available evidence is indistinguishable

 

[Sabour]

And some have more strength or beauty or intelligence. Unjust? I don't know. I have walked through children's hospital wards and seen those who are born with dread diseases, missing limbs, whatever. If I were going to cry about injustice, I'd cry for those kids and not for a prophet born with mediocre prophet talents.

2:155-156

155 And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,

156Who, when disaster strikes them, say, "Indeed we belong to Allah , and indeed to Him we will return."

4:40 Indeed, Allah does not do injustice, [even] as much as an atom's weight; while if there is a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great rew

I think it's a mistake to believe that one individual man can tell you about God without the possibility of error. I think that Abraham, Jesus and Muhammad were like all the rest of us prophets. Sometimes they were truly connected to God and sometimes they were letting their own egos speak to us, rather than always delivering us God's Own Truth.

Where did you get this idea from: sometimes they were letting their own egos speak to us, rather than always delivering us God's Own Truth

Oh, yes. I'm learning how a particular Muslim Lebanese student, living and studying in Cyprus, thinks about God and the world.

:run:

I understand that. If you're going to undertake college, you should focus on it and suck everything you can from it. But don't forget to turn back to debate when you have time. Casting your truth against other truths -- that's the best way to develop one's thought, I really believe.

Am working on that

 

[Ingledsva]

...

4:40 Indeed, Allah does not do injustice, [even] as much as an atom's weight; while if there is a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great rew

...

Where does this come from, as when the Qur'an was written they didn't know about atoms, let alone their "weight?"



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