Why I'm Not A "Feminist"

[Smart_Guy]

So, we have a member who is saying women shouldn't be doing this and women shouldn't be doing that.

We have another member who is continuing to challenge that notion.

Suddenly the member who has been challenging the strict gender roles is being talked about for his gender identity, and if he is being too offensive? Why is his gender identity and if he's being too offensive to Muslims suddenly more important than what the first member has been saying?

Why the pussyfooting around the opinion that strict gender roles is the way to go (which also has repeatedly mentioned that women not fulfilling their roles is the reason why people murder)?

I'm wondering why Frank needs to tone down the offensiveness for a single statement when Robert's comments have repeatedly been offensive to women and trans men with nary a blink.

My previous post gave supporting details for my question here.

I understand!

I didn't go through all the thread, only saw his remark about Saudi Arabia and Islam. Now that you said the above, I feel bad for complaining about it. I said it that I don't mind him hating my cultures, I only confronted him honestly with respect as friends do with each other!

Are you sure you are talking about the Saudi Arabia on this planet, SG?

Yes sir, I do!

However, I admit that so much of what is happening is not exactly what the Islamic law states. Wahhabis are still after us even though they have become much lenient than before!

But really, where I work we have hundreds of non Muslims and they are more than happy. And I've never ever seen someone points at another saying they are homosexual and they are caught for it!

 

[columbus]

Show where my comments are offensive to women. link.

Offensiveness is in the eye of the beholder. You seem quite offended by some things other people take for granted.

You are an interesting case in point. In many regards I am so conservative I appear progressive. Much of what you believe I agree with. But the extremes you take things to, and the way you say things make me want to keep my distance from your posts.

Tom

 

[Robert.Evans]

Offensiveness is in the eye of the beholder. You seem quite offended by some things other people take for granted.

You are an interesting case in point. In many regards I am so conservative I appear progressive. Much of what you believe I agree with. But the extremes you take things to, and the way you say things make me want to keep my distance from your posts.

Tom

examples?

 

[Robert.Evans]

I understand!

I didn't go through all the thread, only saw his remark about Saudi Arabia and Islam. Now that you said the above, I feel bad for complaining about it.

You said nothing wrong; each country stands or falls by its OWN laws

 

[Robert.Evans]

I think it would be more realistic to ask where your comments are not offensive in this thread. You have made bigoted comments about women and transgendered people, and your insistence that there is some sort of anti-male "feminine" conspiracy reeks of desperation and insecurity. If that's not offensive, then I don't know what is.

You always make attacking statements but they seems shallow on evidence;

 

[Robert.Evans]

But really, where I work only, we have hundreds of non Muslims and they are more than happy. And I've never ever seen someone points at another saying they are homosexual and they are caught for it!

I doubt if that will be heard on the western media; governments always want to control, and that starts with the media, then the populace. If you have no enemy, how do you make people want to fight? If they will not fight, then how do you protect your position? The public must be informed with the info that is needed in order that any particular government can then manipulate them. It is called democracy.

 

[Robert.Evans]

You didn't ask nicely. Say "please."

nothing then, that's what I thought

 

[Robert.Evans]

(However, some of us have taken issue with his posts.

what posts? you are free to ad lib if you do not want to link.

 

[columbus]

examples?

Examples of what, precisely? My little mobile has limited abilities to cut and paste.

I believe that everyone deserves a healthy gestation and a full time parent. That is an example of something I agree with you about. If you want examples of your posts that is more difficult for me.

Tom

 

[Debater Slayer]

Yes sir, I do!

However, I admit that so much of what is happening is not exactly what the Islamic law states. Wahhabis are still after us even though they have become much lenient than before!

But really, where I work we have hundreds of non Muslims and they are more than happy. And I've never ever seen someone points at another saying they are homosexual and they are caught for it!

I think it's an oversimplification of the issue to say that the problem is just "Wahhabis" or followers of any other specific religious sect in isolation of the culture, traditions, and customs of the country they're in.

There are indeed many non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia, but only Muslims are allowed to build houses of worship, and people who aren't Jewish, Christian, or Muslim have "Other" written in the "Religion" field in their IDs (or residence permits, more specifically). Furthermore, there is another crucial aspect when it comes to religious or irreligious people in Saudi Arabia: for Middle Eastern people in particular, the default expectation is that they are Christian or Muslim; even Arab Jews aren't very common there. If a Middle Eastern person openly talked about their lack of belief in any Abrahamic religion there, they would most likely get in huge trouble and be hassled for it.

And homosexuals don't typically come out and openly discuss their sexual orientation there either; that would be like asking for trouble. You may be aware that there are places in the capital of Saudi Arabia, for example, where homosexuals are known to gather and hang out with each other, but they don't outright state that they're homosexuals or openly discuss it. They are basically a de facto minority that is unacknowledged except as a "problem" that society supposedly needs to deal with.

I don't think any person who is even remotely familiar with Saudi or Middle Eastern culture in general can honestly say that homosexuals wouldn't face any problems at all if they came out and lived their life without hiding anything about themselves in those places.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You always make attacking statements but they seems shallow on evidence;

For the tip of the iceberg:

I have to say that some of the comments here make me feel at little bit nausea. Is there no men in the west now then with a back bone, or none here. It seems that we would prefer for 'mummy' to make the decisions so we don't have to-- that is what happens when you follow the Goddess and not the God. The only way to the FATHER is through the son, not the mother.

Your being deceived by the feminine Goddess my friend

Women not fulfilling their roles leads to arguing, fighting, murder, a lack of houses, too much fuel required, too many cars, more adultery, more chances of child abuse, damaged children etc etc

Criminals that come from a single parent background are more likely to commit crime than those of a stable relationship; one of the biggest factors in this is the change in the role of women in the last few decades.

So your homos--ual are you? That is the only way that makes sense. But that is a sin, you must know that, it is not natural nor normal

well, I could say that that it is dishonest to say that you are male as you are not male; but that would offend again I suppose; so you have had testosterone or whatever, and now have whiskers perhaps....not that it matters

And then you talk about someone's being "offensive" for criticizing another culture. How precious.

If you don't see how the garbage in your comments is offensive, then the issue is probably far more than some posts on a forum.

 

[columbus]

For the tip of the iceberg:


And then you talk about someone's being "offensive" for criticizing another culture. How precious.

If you don't see how the garbage in your comments is offensive, then the issue is probably far more than some posts on a forum.

Thanks for doing the cut and paste I couldn't.

Tom

 

[Smart_Guy]

I think it's an oversimplification of the issue to say that the problem is just "Wahhabis" or followers of any other specific religious sect in isolation of the culture, traditions, and customs of the country they're in.

There are indeed many non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia, but only Muslims are allowed to build houses of worship, and people who aren't Jewish, Christian, or Muslim have "Other" written in the "Religion" field in their IDs (or residence permits, more specifically). Furthermore, there is another crucial aspect when it comes to religious or irreligious people in Saudi Arabia: for Middle Eastern people in particular, the default expectation is that they are Christian or Muslim; even Arab Jews aren't very common there. If a Middle Eastern person openly talked about their lack of belief in any Abrahamic religion there, they would most likely get in huge trouble and be hassled for it.

And homosexuals don't typically come out and openly discuss their sexual orientation there either; that would be like asking for trouble. You may be aware that there are places in the capital of Saudi Arabia, for example, where homosexuals are known to gather and hang out with each other, but they don't outright state that they're homosexuals or openly discuss it. They are basically a de facto minority that is unacknowledged except as a "problem" that society supposedly needs to deal with.

I don't think any person who is even remotely familiar with Saudi or Middle Eastern culture in general can honestly say that homosexuals wouldn't face any problems at all if they came out and lived their life without hiding anything about themselves in those places.

Wahhabism is not a sect, it is a stubborn and very strict movement of orthodox Islam. That alone makes it straying from true Islamic teachings. Unfortunately, the law is based on it. Even I suffer from it sometimes, tho not so badly!

All of what you said are parts of the law that needs to be followed. What I said before was that no one is bothered for being who they are as long as they don't break those rules. Rules say that all expats must have their religions on there ID's for non oppressing reasons. I mean, how can we forexample know the religion of those entering Makkah where only Muslims are allowed to? It is not there to oppress them. Arab Jews aren't common here because, well, where are they and how many are there even? It only adds up for that!

It is all about the law, and there is no law here that hurts anyone for simply being who they are. Don't break the law, you are safe and even protected as a guest. Be it you are homo, non Muslim of anything else. No one is forced to stay in Saudi Arabia, and when someone is coming in, they are told everything they need to know. They don't like it, they have the choice to not come in, simple as that. Otherwise, everyone is welcome here!

 

[Debater Slayer]

Wahhabism is not a sect, it is a stubborn and very strict movement of orthodox Islam. That alone makes it straying from true Islamic teachings. Unfortunately, the law is based on it. Even I suffer from it sometimes, tho not so badly!

All of what you said are parts of the law that needs to be followed. What I said before was that no one is bothered for being who they are as long as they don't break those rules. Rules say that all expats must have their religions on there ID's for non oppressing reasons. I mean, how can we forexample know the religion of those entering Makkah where only Muslims are allowed to? It is not there to oppress them. Arab Jews aren't common here because, well, where are they and how many are there even? It only adds up for that!

It is all about the law, and there is no law here that hurts anyone for simply being who they are. Don't break the law, you are safe and even protected as a guest. Be it you are homo, non Muslim of anything else. No one is forced to stay in Saudi Arabia, and when someone is coming in, they are told everything they need to know. They don't like it, they have the choice to not come in, simple as that. Otherwise, everyone is welcome here!

And many of those rules are the problem. Saying that people can leave if they don't like how things are doesn't really address the rationality or validity of the rules themselves; it basically amounts to saying that people who feel oppressed by those rules should just go elsewhere.

There are a lot of things in your post that I disagree with too, but elaborating on my disagreements would turn this into a debate that is purely about religion and culture. Those issues are not the topic of the OP, so I'll leave that for another thread.

 

[Revoltingest]

And many of those rules are the problem. Saying that people can leave if they don't like how things are doesn't really address the rationality or validity of the rules themselves; it basically amounts to saying that people who feel oppressed by those rules should just go elsewhere.

There are a lot of things in your post that I disagree with too, but elaborating on my disagreements would turn this into a debate that is purely about religion and culture. Those issues are not the topic of the OP, so I'll leave that for another thread.

If I may infer SG's message, it's that Saudi Arabia is not as bad as it's
portrayed in western media, albeit far from perfect. Did I suss it SG?

 

[columbus]

OMG

Is the USA being portrayed accurately in the media?

Stay tuned for late breaking developments.

Tom

 

[Smart_Guy]

If I may infer SG's message, it's that Saudi Arabia is not as bad as it's
portrayed in western media, albeit far from perfect. Did I suss it SG?

You guessed right, Revolt!

Saudi Arabia is not as bad as people think it is, but it is waaaay far than just good. I completely omit "perfect"!

I dare say that the sense of security here is really really great, but that's it (to me it is the most important of all). other than that, we suffer pretty much in everything, but not seriously badly!

And many of those rules are the problem. Saying that people can leave if they don't like how things are doesn't really address the rationality or validity of the rules themselves; it basically amounts to saying that people who feel oppressed by those rules should just go elsewhere.

There are a lot of things in your post that I disagree with too, but elaborating on my disagreements would turn this into a debate that is purely about religion and culture. Those issues are not the topic of the OP, so I'll leave that for another thread.

It is okay. I myself believe that I might have been wrong in things at least because I'm don't go out much. I respect your disagreements and welcome them!

 

[Riverwolf]

This points out why you should....you're a good ambassador.

Coming from you, that means a lot. Thanks.

That would be scary. I'm more of a Powerpuff Girls fan.

I was never into Powerpuff Girls, largely 'cause I'm not a fan of that kind of animation.

 

[Riverwolf]

There was no problem before, it is what you have been led to believe through women in the media and men who can't be bothered to think.

Actually, I learned it from my own studies of history, completely independent of feminism. The modern US media is actually decidedly anti-feminist, and I pretty much completely ignore it.

And from it, I learned that the Celto-Germanic world was actually not terribly unlike our modern world in terms of how women were treated. What you're describing is something we inherited from the Greco-Roman world, and it's something that should be discarded.

Hail Queen Boudica!

They follow their mother and fight men instead. That way they are not blamed, that is seen as allowable. So they take out there problems on their own kind. That is cowardacy

And not in anyway common. Feminism doesn't fight men specifically; it fights patriarchy, which is supported by both men and women.

there is also only a power struggle when someone else decides they want what you've got

If there's enough to share, there's no such struggle.

equal responsibility for what? if a family breaks up in England, and the father takes the kids, he can be chased by the police for kidnapping. Tell me how that is possible firstly, and secondly, where is your equality??

That's a place where are patriarchal society (which is part of pan-Anglo-American culture, so we have a similar problem here) hurts men. Feminism seeks to fight that, as well.

Of course, if the father takes the kids against the court order, it's legally kidnapping. It would also be kidnapping (I'd hope) if the court order allows the father custody and the mother takes them.

With gender equality, genitals aren't a judgment for any aspect of an individual.

It was not, it was based on the fact that hard work out of the house was done by those most suitable, and those who had better skills for work in the house which was physically easy, were in the house.

Oh, please. Both women and men are perfectly capable of hard physical work, and there's nothing inherent to having a penis that makes us incapable of working well in the house.

What we have built now is a house (office, shop) which is easy 'out' of the house. Females and the media have fooled you. The government what you fooled as they want women working to stop them having children as they are worried about the global population (plus they can tax them) Break up of the family or with a family means that you need two cars, that is good for the economy

The US is not a major contributor to the world's overpopulation(and if it were, encouraging women to not have children would be a good thing). Third-world countries, India, China, and Japan are. I also have no problem with taxes.

Whether a family breaks up is on the family in question. If anything, feminism would help keep families together, because it would help make sure everyone's needs are being met, all limits are understood and respected, and healthy communication is happening. That supports healthy, happy, long-term families.

Both me and my girlfriend (MoonWater on these forums) are feminists, and we've been together for 7-and-a-half years. She's my first ever girlfriend.

 

[Riverwolf]

What you are saying is that men and women do what they want and never mind the children or the greater good in society.

None of us are saying that. You are.

Feminism absolutely cares about children, and is working to make a better society in general. It takes a lot of hard work from everyone.