"Why Is It That Atheists Don't Believe In God?"

[Vinayaka]

I said that fear of God is a strong motivator.
Belief in God might not be a motivator at all.
What people claim is not necessarily what is in their heart.

That's true. I have always taken exception to the idea that morality is somehow connected to God. or that thiests are somehow morally supreme to atheists. Hasn't been my experience at all. In fact my experience is quite the opposite. As for fear of God, that's very much an Abrahamic idea. In dharmic faiths, God is a God of love, and most certainly not something to be feared. The dharmic God is loving, patient, within everyone, and all that. Not dualistic.

 

[Vinayaka]

Are we speaking about words or the real sentiment here?

A truly God fearing person will never do these things although a person ‘calling’ themselves God fearing is capable of the worst things just as a terror strike may call himself a Muslim but a true Muslim in deeds is at peace with all and harms no one.

I was thinking specifically of Catholic priests, and others like that.

Actions are stronger than words, yes. I might be writing from jail, on death row for a hideous murder for all you know.

 

[loverofhumanity]

My father was a staunch atheist. I'm a staunch Hindu. You were born into a Baha'i family?

My mother was religious and I became devoted to God and religious. We both became Baha’is.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I was thinking specifically of Catholic priests, and others like that.

Actions are stronger than words, yes. I might be writing from jail, on death row for a hideous murder for all you know.

Yes I think it’s by our deeds we shall be distinguished and known not by our words. It doesn’t matter what we call ourselves, the real test is how we behave, act and treat others.

There is no superior person morally on earth simply by calling them self a priest. One must prove their worth by deeds. Those Catholic priests who have disgraced their religion have shown us that deeds not status or words are what really count.

In that connection there are atheists who are far more moral.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Wow, how is it you are able to get me so completely wrong, and with such conviction?!!? And then, rather rudely, I think, accuse of me of having a "tiny closed" mind.

At seventy, I have more zest for life, and more curiosity, and more energy for continuous learning, than anyone I know. I read voraciously, I explore when I find something I've never seen before, or find hard to understand. The one thing I don't do is accept magical explanations for things that I can't explain, and then suppose I must now know everything there is to know.

So tell me how you "explore," when you found it expedient to accuse me before even asking me? I think that makes you just a touch less than completely honest with yourself.

You can lash out with all the defensive self-proclamations you want, but all of the posts I've read or your's are nothing but those of a over the top negative tiny closed mind. All you bring to the table here is complete negativity, and trying with all your might to drag everyone down to your low level of negativity. Making all of your above bravado for nothing, your posts here only show me that you are dead inside and filled with negative emotions. So I still find my statement correct.

So I just have to ask, why is it so important to you to come here and force everyone to close their minds and accept your tiny closed minded and limited view of the world?

 

[Trailblazer]

That's true. I have always taken exception to the idea that morality is somehow connected to God. or that thiests are somehow morally supreme to atheists. Hasn't been my experience at all. In fact my experience is quite the opposite. As for fear of God, that's very much an Abrahamic idea. In dharmic faiths, God is a God of love, and most certainly not something to be feared. The dharmic God is loving, patient, within everyone, and all that. Not dualistic.

I certainly do not believe that theists are morally superior to atheists. One could easily argue that since atheists do not believe there is any "reward" in heaven, their moral behavior is for good itself. There is no way an Abrahamic theist could say that because they all believe in the reward; so even though the Bab told us not to do what we do for a reward we know we will get one so that has to influence our behavior.

I like your nice God, but logically speaking, God is whatever God is. I am still trying to figure that one out and I have discussions with my Baha'i husband about it all the time. He is so sure God is Loving but I am not sure God is All-Loving. Is God All-Loving? If God is All-Loving and Omnipotent, how can there be so much suffering in the world? I know the Baha'i apologetic about how suffering is so good for us and makes us stronger, so I don't want to hear that again. If I hear it one more time I am going to become an atheist.

Fear of God is not what people think it is. Once a while back I was discussing this with one of my atheist friends on another forum and I went to the trouble of making up a Word document with all the references in Gleanings to fear of God, and I was surprised at what I found. I know you do not like scriptures posted to you so I will spare you those. I am not even sure where I put that Word doc. Maybe I will paraphrase the gist if I can find it. As I recall fear of God means reverence towards God, not fear that God is a-gonna getcha.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes I think it’s by our deeds we shall be distinguished and known not by our words. It doesn’t matter what we call ourselves, the real test is how we behave, act and treat others.

About words and deeds:

“The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his life.”
Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 156

 

[Trailblazer]

I give you, for example, your notion that the rudder cannot move the ship. In fact, it can, in precisely the same way that a fish tail can impel the fish forward, as well as control the direction in which it moves.

From the little research I have done, it does not appear as if the rudder can propel the ship forward the same way that a fish tail can impel the fish forward. The rudder cannot even move unless the ship is already moving.

The rudder of a vessel can steer the ship only when water is passing over it. Hence, when a ship is not moving relative to the water it is in or cannot move its rudder, it does not respond to the helm and is said to have "lost steerage." The motion of a ship through the water is known as "making way."
Steerage (ship) - Wikipedia

So I guess Abdu'l-Baha's analogy still holds water.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Are we speaking about words or the real sentiment here?

A truly God fearing person will never do these things although a person ‘calling’ themselves God fearing is capable of the worst things just as a terror strike may call himself a Muslim but a true Muslim in deeds is at peace with all and harms no one.

I've given this issue a lot of thought and there seems to be at least two reasons why so-called "God fearing" people do evil things to others.

One seems to be a complete disconnect between their actions and their self-awareness. So while they may go around in the community presenting themselves as all pure and holy, they are complete monsters to their families, pedophiles, rapists, murderers, etc., in secret. But it doesn't even register, for in their minds they are "pure and holy".

The other seems to be that both Christianity and Islam actually attracts evil people because those religions have lots of verses from their respective "gods" that it's ok to treat people cruelly and has some verses that actually commands them to kill people of other beliefs.

 

[Riders]

What I believe is an excellent explanation.

​

0:00 - 0:07 the question

0:8 - 1:28 the basic answer

1:28 - 2:50 elaboration

2:50 - 3:09 fumbling with words

3:09 - 3:47 follow up question

3:47- 4:20 "the only reasonable answer"

4:20 - 4:37 irrelevant question about ecosystem

4:37 - 5:01 "argument from ignorance" and "the universe was created for black holes" quote

5:01 - 21:17 more questions and explanations
​

Sound reasonable to you? It does to me.

.

Yea I agree with a lot but not everything. I do not believe all religions are harmful and BTW the fact that they say all religions believe in a false God and not like them shows the ignorance. Buddhists and Zen Buddhists for the most or in part Atheists. There's a huge Atheist movement within Atheist Unitarian Unversalist churches, there are Atheist Quaker churches so.

But I did like the show, I like they're answers on a lot of it. They made a fool out of the caller. I seem to be hearing Christians say a lot of what i heard him say, how did we get these great big scientific world, stars planets mountains and animals if not by God. Good answer yes, science explains it and for what it does not explaim does not mean we should explain everything away with a God.

Good show, thanks for putting it up.

 

[Ancient Soul]

I certainly do not believe that theists are morally superior to atheists. One could easily argue that since atheists do not believe there is any "reward" in heaven, their moral behavior is for good itself. There is no way an Abrahamic theist could say that because they all believe in the reward; so even though the Bab told us not to do what we do for a reward we know we will get one so that has to influence our behavior.

That's one of the things I frequently bring up to the Christians whenever they try insulting an atheist with the accusation that they are moral-less. First I point out that it's not true to make such a blanket statement. And then point out that the atheists that I know are good because they WANT to be good. Whereas Christians only do "good deeds" in the hopes of a "Heavenly reward".

I like your nice God, but logically speaking, God is whatever God is. I am still trying to figure that one out and I have discussions with my Baha'i husband about it all the time. He is so sure God is Loving but I am not sure God is All-Loving. Is God All-Loving? If God is All-Loving and Omnipotent, how can there be so much suffering in the world? I know the Baha'i apologetic about how suffering is so good for us and makes us stronger, so I don't want to hear that again. If I hear it one more time I am going to become an atheist.

But... so ok... I'll keep my mouth shut, I wouldn't want to be the cause of you going atheistic.

Fear of God is not what people think it is. Once a while back I was discussing this with one of my atheist friends on another forum and I went to the trouble of making up a Word document with all the references in Gleanings to fear of God, and I was surprised at what I found. I know you do not like scriptures posted to you so I will spare you those. I am not even sure where I put that Word doc. Maybe I will paraphrase the gist if I can find it. As I recall fear of God means reverence towards God, not fear that God is a-gonna getcha.

I did that too. Well, I found a website that did that, so I copied it. What horrifically cruel and evil things the Christian "god" did or demanded his people do for him. And I remember during bible study as a child how they drummed into us kids some of those verses on how evil their "god" was, all meant to instill FEAR into us. I think it actually messed up some of the kids, mentally wise.

 

[lukethethird]

That is not an example of a belief of mine. The author of that passage was simply using some commonly understood analogies, they were not intended to be religious truths or "Boating 101."

It is not that the Christians do not believe that teaching, it is that they do not follow that teaching. Do you understand the difference?

Yes, the difference is that those that don't follow that teaching will be tossed into the lake of fire.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, the difference is that those that don't follow that teaching will be tossed into the lake of fire.

Where does the Bible say that?

 

[Willamena]

Nothing isn't something that could exist...

 

[joelr]

His job was not to be a writer.

His hobby was to write really cheezy praise that barely ever makes any points. It would be hilarious if the god of the universe was a really bad writer and communicator.

Because we cannot do anything without the assistance of God.

Then we are all god-puppets?

Humans never got along without God because God existed long before humans evolved.

So god just makes people do things? We are just CGI animation that god writes?

Animals do not do acts of good and bad because animals have no free will. Animals act upon instincts, they do not make moral choices.

You just said we cannot do anything without god? Why would we need freewill?
So we can do things without god? Which one?

Also animals do make moral choices. Have you seen the documentary about the gorilla in captivity that learned sign language? She mothered a cat, communicated words for love, friend, emotions. She signed the words for sad. cry, Koko cry, when the cat was killed. Gorillas have the same blood we do and the exact amounts of hairs on our bodies.
Animals and humans have freewill but act on instinct as well.
We can override out instincts but so can higher animals.

Your god messages make you sound like an elemantary school child who hasn't had any science classes yet.

You can believe the natural explanation or the God explanation.

I thought you can't do anything without god? Now you can believe things and exercise freewill? You are making no sense?
Do you even understand what garbage that dude is telling you in his "scripture"?

 

[joelr]

Where does the Bible say that?

Jesus warns of everlasting fire and similar and in Rev we hear it called lake of fire

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:8-9
If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Revelations:
Whoever isn't found listed in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. 20:15

 

[joelr]

Ok. Then let’s begin with the saying ‘love thy neighbour as thyself’ (Matt 22:39) spoken by Jesus.

Your origin please if as you say ‘people’ made it up before Jesus. Which people? Who? When? Exactly the same statement?

Early Hinduism is the Vedic texts or Vedic scriptures. All teachings by Jesus that observe compassion for others were already in Vedic text 3000 years earlier.
When I first read some of them I was like "hey this sounds like the new-age conceptions of Jesus?"


The Hindus, followers of the oldest of the religions now being practiced, believe that one’s own Self or Soul is reallly identical with the Self or Soul of all other creatures. Hence one who injures another injures oneself. In the Hindu Vedas, “Love your neighbor as yourself'” is an inherent precept of unity with the absolute self, ‘That art thou’ (tat tvam asi). So, it follows that because one loves oneself, one is bound to love one’s neighbor, who is not different from oneself”

“This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you.” (Mahabharata 5,1517)

“One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself. This is the essence of morality. All other activities are due to selfish desire.” (Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva 113.8)

 

[joelr]

So you agree the law revealed by Jesus to love thy neighbour is of benefit to all of us however you cannot cite any other instance of this teaching being used and promoted or founded by anyone else apart from Jesus?

Just because one does not believe in Jesus or God does not mean that this teaching did not originate from them. Humanists have simply taken what they like and used that but left behind what they don’t agree with yet still historical records show Jesus was the One Who taught & promoted loving thy neighbour which later became adopted even by atheists and humanists.

Let’s be fair and honest and acknowledge that the teaching of love thy neighbour originated with Jesus otherwise please cite another specific source like I have done.

Your cherry picking. Jesus speaks of everlasting hellfire and the whole movement requires humans to be these awful inborn "sinners" and god needs all sorts of blood sacrifice to forgive?
God--"oh no don't kill your son, I was kidding, kill lots of animals.
Passover, Yom-kippur, temple sacrifice, killing goats all over the place?
Super magic blood atonement of a demi-god brings the followers extra long forgiveness??? This obsession with sacrificial substitutionary magic blood atonement is
complete Bronze age nonsense. If there is a god it has no likeness to this ridiculous mythology.

Love your neighbor comes natural to thinking animals. Gorillas do it as well so the idea that it requires some god intervention is a fail.

For the last time, humans lived for up to 200,000 years without civilization. They would not have survived if they were all savages. They even honored their dead.
The aptitude for friendship and compassion that the gorilla KoKo showed throughout her life was not unlike human behavior.

Sorry, it's built in as a survival mechanism.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then we are all god-puppets?
So god just makes people do things? We are just CGI animation that god writes?

No, not at all. The power that allows us to act comes from God, but we make the choices and act on them.

You just said we cannot do anything without god? Why would we need freewill?
So we can do things without god? Which one?

It is not an either/or. The power of God allows us to make choices and act with our free will.

Also animals do make moral choices. Have you seen the documentary about the gorilla in captivity that learned sign language? She mothered a cat, communicated words for love, friend, emotions. She signed the words for sad. cry, Koko cry, when the cat was killed. Gorillas have the same blood we do and the exact amounts of hairs on our bodies.
Animals and humans have freewill but act on instinct as well.
We can override out instincts but so can higher animals.

I do not believe that animals have free will. They operate on instincts. We can override our instincts but animals cannot. Gorillas, being close to man, might have similar qualities but they are not human so they are not the same. Some animals have emotions but they do not have the ability to think in the abstract and make moral choices.

Do you even understand what garbage that dude is telling you in his "scripture"?

Do you even understand that you do not know more than God?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You changed your argument for coming from Jesus to coming from God. How convenient.

A Baha'i sees the Christ Spirit is all we can know of God and that it is the Same Spirit behind all the Messengers given in all the Holy Books since time began, that has no beginning and until the end that has no end.

Thus to us Christ = Perfect reflection of Gods attributes. It is not the flesh body of Jesus we are talking about. Thus Christ Words = Gods Words, Gods Words = Christs Words.

Have we discussed this before?

Hope you are well and happy. If you having anything to do with the Gregorian New Year, all the best for the new year. My new year is march 21st.

Regards Tony