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Why Jews and Christians do not accept Islam?

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
And their main prophet, Baha'u'llah, means "The Glory of God". Just a coincidence? Or a fulfillment of a prophecy? Or... just creative interpreting?

It's a sort of ... self-fulfilling prophecy. It's an affirmation. It's an old technique, an old religious practice. You'll still find it among some hindus where the aspirant is seeking a realization of their own god-hood. So they affirm ,out-loud, repeatedly to themselves that they are god, more or less. Then, the aspirant, once they have convinced themself, they try to become a guru, and take on other disciples, who will treat them, the previous aspirant, the guru as god.

So, when they gave Bahaullah his new name, and they referred to him by that name, and Bahaullah accepted that name, and referred to himself by that name, it was an affirmation. And those sort of affirmations can and do make real changes in the brain. A person can delude themself or worse if the affirmations are repeated consistently. It's like a ... self-induced brainwashing technique. Originally the practice of renaming and affirmations were included in the practices of shamanism, alchemy, and sorcery.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's written in the Quran that God's law is not eternal. That's a deal breaker for me. It conflicts with the written Torah.

There are hadiths that say hadiths abrogate hadiths just like Quran abrogates Quran. Yet hadiths say halal and haram of Mohammad (s) remain till day of judgment.

The truth about this, is that the abrogation is when one situation replaces another. The Quran has different paradigms and scenarios. For example, the verses about peace and war. The verses earlier teaching people to forbear the difficulties and prosecution vs the verses way later telling believers to attack the polytheists and people of the book who broke treaties and didn't stay true to them.

Some Muslims saw that the attack verses forever abrogated the prosecution ones to remain patient, but in reality, it's situation to situation, it's not one fully abrogates another.

It's the same with hadiths. Some hadiths are about a particular circumstance. For example, it maybe Shiites were so prosecuted, they couldn't afford the risk of someone ratting them out, so if someone left the religion or insulted the Prophet (s) or Imams (a) (from Shiites), they should kill him. I don't know if these hadiths are true or not, but they might have been situational despite the Quran saying freedom of religion is allowed. In this case, the security integrity of Shiites might have canceled the right of leaving the religion. I don't know if this is the case, just giving an example.

When it comes to ethics in general:

Universals

vs

Situational


Constants

vs

Dynamic


It's just the nature of morality, that is a constant part (the foundation), then there is dynamic and situational ethics that can't be universally applied.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
The truth about this...

The truth about this is:

It is written in the Quran that God's law is not eternal. 2:106. That is a deal breaker for me. That verse justifies to many that there cannot be a righteous Jew in spite of what is written in the Quran about us. The ones who do this, claim that the earlier surahs were received after the later ones, and therefore all of the venom in 4,5,6 ( if I recall ) abrogates the love, kindness, respect and moderation for Jews that follow.

You, yourself, in prior debates denied the verses in the Quran which describe righteous Jews. All because we do not lift up your hero as supreme.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The truth about this is:

It is written in the Quran that God's law is not eternal. 2:106. That is a deal breaker for me. That verse justifies to many that there cannot be a righteous Jew in spite of what is written in the Quran about us. The ones who do this, claim that the earlier surahs were received after the later ones, and therefore all of the venom in 4,5,6 ( if I recall ) abrogates the love, kindness, respect and moderation for Jews that follow.

You, yourself, in prior debates denied the verses in the Quran which describe righteous Jews. All because we do not lift up your hero as supreme.
The Quran per my understanding, doesn't even allow, "a righteous Muslim" to reject Imams (a) and be called righteous nor will a rejection of signs of God be accepted from them, but rather, they will be deemed disbelievers. So why would it allow a Jew to reject Mohammad (s)?

Sunnis also have this problem with Shiite hadiths, they say, how can "so many Muslims" be deemed transgressors and liars. The truth is the religion is clear, the path is clear, and people who opt to reject God's guidance and follow what they want instead, it won't be accepted from God, but rather submission and being at peace with the guidance of God is needed. Accepting who God has chosen is needed.

As I said, there is exceptions, when people do not have access to the truth nor a way to reject it, this especially the case for people not living easy lives and have no time to research religion.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This has to do with sign and proof in form of guidance being replaced by one with like it or better if cancelled. There are hadiths that use this to show Imam Mahdi (a) is alive for example. This verse has nothing do with the abrogation of verses unto another.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As I said: It's written in the Quran, God's law is not eternal. That is a deal breaker for me.
You should study a bit of ethics. Situations always arise that cancel out other situations and so there is precedence in morality. An example I can think of is Lut (a) offering his daughters. As a general rule, it's disgusting and evil for him to do so, but the situation was that it could've saved his people from destruction and hell, and so it was not evil what he did but the opposite, it was honorable and compassionate.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
This has to do with

It's written. God's law is not eternal. People use it to justify their hatred and violence against the innocent. It is a bad verse. A prophet of God would not include it. They would know, foreknowledge, the crimes that this verse would cause.

You can wrap all sort of interpretations around it. It changes nothing. You, yourself, denied the Quran in our previous conversations. And that's why I started ignoring you.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
You should study a bit of ethics.

I have. It changes nothing. It's written in the Quran: God's law is not eternal. That is a deal breaker for me. The fact that you are avoiding the Quran right now, indicates I am right about this.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have. It changes nothing. It's written in the Quran: God's law is not eternal. That is a deal breaker for me. The fact that you are avoiding the Quran right now, indicates I am right about this.
Okay. Reject for whatever reasons you wish. Do Jews believe the laws of the Torah were always here on earth since Adam (a) till now? If not, then it's not eternal. It's just forever till world ends from when Jews received it.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
Firstly, did you know that, when Muhammad was among people of Arabia, many of Arab Jews and Christians believed in Him? (Right or wrong?l

Secondly, why the Jews and Christians,.now do not believe in Muhammad?
Muhammad’s ideas were based roughly on the teachings of Judaism and Christianity, but his knowledge of the two religions seems to have been fairly approximate - quite natural given that he probably heard about them from various different people rather than through some process of study - so a lot of his ideas didn’t match the beliefs of some of the people he was trying to convert. More or less the same reasons are valid now.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Okay. Reject for whatever reasons you wish.

I will accept Quran verses. As I should.

Do Jews believe the laws of the Torah were always here on earth since Adam (a) till now?

Judaism asserts that The Torah predates creation. Individual modern Jews are generally clueless about Judaism.

If not, then it's not eternal. It's just forever till world ends from when Jews received it.

It is eternal, so, I guess that tactic failed.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I will accept Quran verses. As I should.



Judaism asserts that The Torah predates creation. Individual modern Jews are generally clueless about Judaism.



It is eternal, so, I guess that tactic failed.
So Adam (a) taught all the laws in the Torah? Noah (a) did too? Abraham (a) did too?
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
@Link

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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Firstly, did you know that, when Muhammad was among people of Arabia, many of Arab Jews and Christians believed in Him? (Right or wrong?l

Secondly, why the Jews and Christians,.now do not believe in Muhammad?
This neglects the problem of why Jews reject Christianity, Historically older religions do reject newer religions, because they do not fit the orthodox beliefs of their religion.

Of course, some not many Jews became Christians during the life of Jesus, and shortly after, but for the most part Christianity became Hellenist Roman religion and rejected by by far most Jews.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
So Adam (a) taught all the laws in the Torah? Noah (a) did too? Abraham (a) did too?

Irrelevant, but, Abraham? Yes. It's in Genesis. Going from memory... Chapter 26, maybe 36. I'd need to look it up.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Irrelevant, but, Abraham? Yes. It's in Genesis. Going from memory... Chapter 26, maybe 36. I'd need to look it up.
It's relevant. If you saying it has to be the same rules constantly, then it had to be on earth since Adam (a).
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
It's relevant. If you saying it has to be the same rules constantly, then it had to be on earth since Adam (a).

Nope. The rules are eternal whether they are written or not.

Whether they are on earth is irrelevant.
Whether they are written is irrelevant.
Whether they are known is irrelevant.

They are eternal because God is literally and absolutely infinite.
 
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