Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

[GoodAttention]

Not just Muhammad .. Jesus also complained about 'the scribes' and their corruption.


Is it? Why?

>>>Mosaic_authorship - Wikipedia<<<

Remember how the Injeel and the gospels and Paul, basically much of the accepted Christian scripture ended up corrupted?
Basically the same people who accept these scriptures, i.e. Christian churches, started breaking down the scriptures and analyzing them, tearing them apart looking for consitency and language etc etc. The end result has zero doctrinal value, but it allowed a tradition of "studying" the bible.

These same people then turned their scalples onto the Hebrew texts (translated ones) applying the same approach.

Ask yourself what purpose does it serve, and should we let them do the same to the Quran?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Remember how the Injeel and the gospels and Paul, basically much of the accepted Christian scripture ended up corrupted?

Is it corrupted?
It is easier to trace the NT as opposed to the OT.
It's even easier to trace the Qur'an.

The NT did not exist in the time of Jesus.
It is a collection of writings, that were chosen for various theological reasons.
The Bible canon is what it is .. and we also have the apocrypha.

 

[GoodAttention]

Is it corrupted?
It is easier to trace the NT as opposed to the OT.
It's even easier to trace the Qur'an.

I thought it was Muhammad and Islam that said they were corrupted no?

The NT did not exist in the time of Jesus.
It is a collection of writings, that were chosen for various theological reasons.
The Bible canon is what it is .. and we also have the apocrypha.

Where did you read Jesus complain about the scribes?

 

[Eliana]

19 Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury:
20 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
- Deuteronomy 23 -

..and that is quite clear .. it's OK to 'rip off' non-Jews, and oppress them financially.


I became a Muslim through the grace of G-d..
..but I didn't stop there.
G-d gave us intelligence to use .. education is a good thing .. not just in our own inherited Scriptures,
but in all areas of academia.

Ohhh okay G-d made you a Muslim via divine providence. Well, He made me a Jew via divine providence also so I guess it's a tie. You also have no idea what I've studied and haven't, so assuming you are somehow better educated then I is a bit premature.

Maybe perhaps you don't read English well, but I believe I explained in detail that it actually says the very opposite of what you just stated. I also wouldn't be talking about ripping people off when you belong to a religion that allows you to tax Jews and Christians simply for being who they are.

Jizya

Hypocrisy

'Ripping off" means to steal or defraud someone. Willingly entering a contract where both parties understand the terms is the opposite of that. I'm also going to warn you that I do not tolerate people denigrating the Torah, including accusing HaShem of sanctioning theft or dishonesty.

 

[Eliana]

OK, so why do you think all those Jews were killed in the Nazi holocaust? Oh yes, I don't believe in kabbalah either, but don't know why you bring it up about the holocaust. Nope, while it is most certainly fiction as to why all those Jews were killed regarding the mezuzah that is what my mother in law told me. You consider her and her rabbi apostate. So then why do you think so many Jews were killed in the holocaust?

I'm not interested in discussing the holocaust, especially in a thread that has nothing to do with it. I also don't remotely see the connection between the holocaust and your mothers religious beliefs. I follow Halakha on who is and isn't a Jew, and it isn't merely my opinion and what makes someone apostate.

 

[Eliana]

The Christological mission of Jesus, which I left in response #146, is that the Jewish Jesus came to set an example. I am still on your first question #1 (The Messiah must be from David's line and from the tribe of Judah; Jesus was not.) and have left Jesus' response, which is actually also another question, so far unanswered.

• #186
• #217

I already did answer this question to someone else. I'm not going to repeat myself so feel free to scroll back and find it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... she also told me her rabbi said all the Jews were killed in the Holocaust because they didn't have mezuzahs up.

(^ off-topic, not to mention disgusting )

 

[muhammad_isa]

I thought it was Muhammad and Islam that said they were corrupted no?

No, not directly..
Many Muslims claim that..

..but what they mean, imo, is that many verses in the Holy Bible (OT & NT) are misleading or incorrect.

Where did you read Jesus complain about the scribes?

In the NT .. the scribes aka Pharisees could often read and write, while others did not.

..a bit like the Reformation, in which Catholics were accused of corruption.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Maybe perhaps you don't read English well..

I'm a reasonably well-educated English man with English parents.

..a religion that allows you to tax Jews and Christians simply for being who they are.

Jizya

Jews and Christians were not required to join security forces.
As you know, security costs money.
Furthermore, it is compulsory for Muslims to pay zakat, whereas it is not for non-Muslims.

'Ripping off" means to steal or defraud someone. Willingly entering a contract where both parties understand the terms is the opposite of that.

OK .. it is not a direct way of defrauding others .. but it is highly questionable to base an economic
system (along with its political counterpart) on usury .. and encourage and force others to participate.

When people are kept in poverty through such financial systems, it is no surprise when they become
aggressive towards their oppressors.
The world today is unstable, with usury being one of the main culprits.

I'm also going to warn you that I do not tolerate people denigrating the Torah, including accusing HaShem of sanctioning theft or dishonesty.

I am not accusing G-d .. I am accusing the scribes of old .. for making lawful what is not, and
altering Scriptures for worldly gain.

 

[Eliana]

(^ off-topic, not to mention disgusting )

Many Christians like to allude to the notion that the holocaust was something Jews brought on themselves.

 

[GoodAttention]

No, not directly..
Many Muslims claim that..

..but what they mean, imo, is that many verses in the Holy Bible (OT & NT) are misleading or incorrect.

Misleading or incorrect...regardless if it was one or many revelations right?

In the NT .. the scribes aka Pharisees could often read and write, while others did not.

Was Paul a Pharisee? Did the Essenes write the Dead Sea scrolls?

..a bit like the Reformation, in which Catholics were accused of corruption.

That would be doctrinal or administrative corruption, not scriptural corruption.

 

[Eliana]

I'm a reasonably well-educated English man with English parents.

Well not reasonably enough because you're ignoring my direct answer to this nonsense over and over. I just stated we aren't allowed to charge interest on the poor nor charge anything burdensome.

Jews and Christians were not required to join security forces.
As you know, security costs money.

So what? You charge a tax on Christians and Jews that Muslims are not required to pay regardless of if they're "in the security forces". You're such a freakin' hypocrite and totally lack self awareness.

OK .. it is not a direct way of defrauding others .. but it is highly questionable to base an economic
system (along with its political counterpart) on usury .. and encourage and force others to participate.

When people are kept in poverty through such financial systems, it is no surprise when they become
aggressive towards their oppressors.
The world today is unstable, with usury being one of the main culprits.

Ah now we're getting to what you're really trying to say. Jews are oppressors and probably some banking/usury conspiracy theory. Dude, we've been attacked for this nonsense so long we pick up on it instantly. I'm not interested in your antisemitism or grievances with Judaism. I hold Islam in pretty high contempt myself, but live and let live I guess.

I am not accusing G-d .. I am accusing the scribes of old .. for making lawful what is not, and altering Scriptures for worldly gain.

Islam teaches that The Torah and the Christian bible are corrupted, which it has to because the Quran contradicts them in significant ways. Apparently Allah was unable to preserve his prior revelations but somehow exerted the effort for the Quran. What a load of nonsense.

I don't care one iota what you think of Jews or Judaism, nor do I think the Quran and Islam is worth jack squat. You're wasting your time.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Was Paul a Pharisee? Did the Essenes write the Dead Sea scrolls?

What's your point?

That would be doctrinal or administrative corruption, not scriptural corruption.

Corruption is corruption .. and it was based on the authority of the church, and
Latin writings.
Most people were illiterate before the Reformation.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So what? You charge a tax on Christians and Jews that Muslims are not required to pay regardless of if they're "in the security forces"..

Muslims are required to pay zakat.

Dude, we've been attacked for this nonsense so long we pick up on it instantly. I'm not interested in your antisemitism or grievances with Judaism.

It is not anti-semitism .. I quoted Deuteronomy, that is part of the Torah.

Many Muslims seem to have the same attitude i.e. it's OK to defraud non-Muslims

The difference is, that usury is forbidden, full-stop, in Islam (exceptions for life-threat, as always)

 

[GoodAttention]

What's your point?

I wanted to know your response given you are quoting Jesus from a source you admit is misleading and incorrect.

Corruption is corruption .. and it was based on the authority of the church, and
Latin writings.
Most people were illiterate before the Reformation.

And this is why evidence for any claim of authority is so important, because people, especially the illiterate, can be taken advantage of.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Now, if David calls Him 'Master', how can He at the same time be His son? Jesus' question still stands unanswered, and moreover: What did the Lord say to the Master?

Again, it is not really a question in the first place. The text starts with (לדוד מזמור) - translated this means that the this song is about David. David is not the one speaking it, one of his servants / subjects is. Other Jewish comments on this is that part of it is contrasting David to Avraham.

Thus, if the historical Jesus had asked someone this question it would have brought attention to Jesus not knowing Hebrew.

 

[Eliana]

Muslims are required to pay zakat.


It is not anti-semitism .. I quoted Deuteronomy, that is part of the Torah.

Many Muslims seem to have the same attitude i.e. it's OK to defraud non-Muslims

The difference is, that usury is forbidden, full-stop, in Islam (exceptions for life-threat, as always)

Jews have to pay tzedakah. This is your last warning to stop accusing Jews of fraud, then I report you and block you.

I don't give a rats behind what Islam teaches, because I'm not a Muslim.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

19 Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury:
20 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
- Deuteronomy 23 -

..and that is quite clear .. it's OK to 'rip off' non-Jews, and oppress them financially.

What is "quite clear" is your comfort with well worn antisemitic tropes, clear but unsurprising.

Tigay observes:

21.* loans to foreigners ... As Shadal notes, the foreigner is normally is a businessman visiting the country for purposes of trade, and he borrows in order to invest in merchandise and make a profit, not to survive poverty. There is no moral imperative to remit loans made for such purposes or forgo interest on them. Furthermore, assuming the risk of lending and making the sacrifice that remission and interest-free loans entail are special obligations towards one's own countrymen (Heb. `aḥim, lit. "brothers") and for the sake of maintaining equilibrium in Israelite society. The law does not require assuming the same risk and sacrifice towards others who do not share the same obligation. [source]​

In the future, please keep your antisemitic drivel to yourself.

* your reference to 23:19,20 should have been 23:20,21

 

[dybmh]

Is there scripture where it is said directly what sin means? If it is not directly said, it can be vague, because people can then make interpretations and get different meanings and disputes on what it truly means. But, that doesn't mean that some people could not have clear understanding, only that there can be different ideas and it may be difficult for some to find the correct meaning.

Hebrew script is unique among all languages in use today. It is iconography. That means, like a chemical formula, each of the letters has a meaning. Then these meanings combine to form a word. The meaning of the word corresponds with the meaning of the letters. It's not an exact match. It's a correspondence. Further, the pronunciation operates in the same manner. Each phonic syllable ( consonant + vowel ) has a meaning. These phonic syllables when combined in sequence have a meaning which corresponds to the meaning of the word as well.

As I said, this correspondence is not a perfect match, but, when words are compared and contrasted, in Hebrew, in their diction and in their lettering ( form and function ) one can derive a precise meaning which is not vague.

Example. The best one I know of in this case is Avoirah. Which is a word for sin ( technically transgression ). It is contrasted with Barah, the word which is reserved for the manner in which God alone creates, from Genesis 1:1. That word, is never-never used for any one else. It is only divine creation by fiat ( divine speech, the Word of God ). Avoirah, is the direct absolute opposite of Barah. This can be shown in its lettering. It can be shown in the diction. It is precise. An Avoirah, ( a type of sin, a transgression ) is uncreating what God is intending to be create. It is nullifying. Or flip-flopping. Isaiah 5:20.

We can do the same thing for "Chait" ( very similar in pronunciation to the English word 'hate' ). But it's a little more complicated to derive.

 

[Eliana]

What is "quite clear" is your comfort with well worn antisemitic tropes, clear but unsurprising.

Tigay observes:

21.* loans to foreigners ... As Shadal notes, the foreigner is normally is a businessman visiting the country for purposes of trade, and he borrows in order to invest in merchandise and make a profit, not to survive poverty. There is no moral imperative to remit loans made for such purposes or forgo interest on them. Furthermore, assuming the risk of lending and making the sacrifice that remission and interest-free loans entail are special obligations towards one's own countrymen (Heb. `aḥim, lit. "brothers") and for the sake of maintaining equilibrium in Israelite society. The law does not require assuming the same risk and sacrifice towards others who do not share the same obligation. [source]​

In the future, please keep your antisemitic drivel to yourself.

* your reference to 23:19,20 should have been 23:20,21

I also pointed out to him that these rules applied to any citizen, including non-Jewish ones.