I realized this hypothesis in 2015, however, there's a Jewish defense from 2005. I'll look into this carefully later.
Psalm 110 - A Jewish Perspective
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Why Jews don't believe in Jesus
- Thread starter Eliana
- Start date
I realized this hypothesis in 2015, however, there's a Jewish defense from 2005. I'll look into this carefully later.
Psalm 110 - A Jewish Perspective
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Why Jews don't believe in Jesus
Jews of our time can never believe in Christian-Jesus as Christianity people make "Jesus-god" and or literal/physical "son of god" which he never was.
Right?
4:172
O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in your religion, and say not of Allah anything but the truth. Verily, the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah and a fulfilment of His word which He sent down to Mary, and a mercy from Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers, and say not ‘They are three.’ Desist, it will be better for you. Verily, Allah is the only One God. Far is it from His Holiness that He should have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as a Guardian.
4:173
Surely, the Messiah will never disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor will the angels near unto God; and whoso disdains to worship Him and feels proud, He will gather them all to Himself.
www.alislam.org
Regards
______________________
4:172-173
یٰۤاَہۡلَ الۡکِتٰبِ لَا تَغۡلُوۡا فِیۡ دِیۡنِکُمۡ وَلَا تَقُوۡلُوۡا عَلَی اللّٰہِ اِلَّا الۡحَقَّ ؕ اِنَّمَا الۡمَسِیۡحُ عِیۡسَی ابۡنُ مَرۡیَمَ رَسُوۡلُ اللّٰہِ وَکَلِمَتُہٗ ۚ اَلۡقٰہَاۤ اِلٰی مَرۡیَمَ وَرُوۡحٌ مِّنۡہُ ۫ فَاٰمِنُوۡا بِاللّٰہِ وَرُسُلِہٖ ۚ۟ وَلَا تَقُوۡلُوۡا ثَلٰثَۃٌ ؕ اِنۡتَہُوۡا خَیۡرًا لَّکُمۡ ؕ اِنَّمَا اللّٰہُ اِلٰہٌ وَّاحِدٌ ؕ سُبۡحٰنَہٗۤ اَنۡ یَّکُوۡنَ لَہٗ وَلَدٌ ۘ لَہٗ مَا فِی السَّمٰوٰتِ وَمَا فِی الۡاَرۡضِ ؕ وَکَفٰی بِاللّٰہِ وَکِیۡلًا ﴿۱۷۲
لَنۡ یَّسۡتَنۡکِفَ الۡمَسِیۡحُ اَنۡ یَّکُوۡنَ عَبۡدًا لِّلّٰہِ وَلَا الۡمَلٰٓئِکَۃُ الۡمُقَرَّبُوۡنَ ؕ وَمَنۡ یَّسۡتَنۡکِفۡ عَنۡ عِبَادَتِہٖ وَیَسۡتَکۡبِرۡ فَسَیَحۡشُرُہُمۡ اِلَیۡہِ جَمِیۡعًا ﴿۱۷۳﴾
Jews of our time can never believe in Christian-Jesus as Christianity people make "Jesus-god" and or literal/physical "son of god" which he never was.
Right?
4:172
O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in your religion, and say not of Allah anything but the truth. Verily, the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah and a fulfilment of His word which He sent down to Mary, and a mercy from Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers, and say not ‘They are three.’ Desist, it will be better for you. Verily, Allah is the only One God. Far is it from His Holiness that He should have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as a Guardian.
4:173
Surely, the Messiah will never disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor will the angels near unto God; and whoso disdains to worship Him and feels proud, He will gather them all to Himself.
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
In Arabic, Chinese, English, French, German, Italian, Spanish and Urdu.
Regards
______________________
4:172-173
یٰۤاَہۡلَ الۡکِتٰبِ لَا تَغۡلُوۡا فِیۡ دِیۡنِکُمۡ وَلَا تَقُوۡلُوۡا عَلَی اللّٰہِ اِلَّا الۡحَقَّ ؕ اِنَّمَا الۡمَسِیۡحُ عِیۡسَی ابۡنُ مَرۡیَمَ رَسُوۡلُ اللّٰہِ وَکَلِمَتُہٗ ۚ اَلۡقٰہَاۤ اِلٰی مَرۡیَمَ وَرُوۡحٌ مِّنۡہُ ۫ فَاٰمِنُوۡا بِاللّٰہِ وَرُسُلِہٖ ۚ۟ وَلَا تَقُوۡلُوۡا ثَلٰثَۃٌ ؕ اِنۡتَہُوۡا خَیۡرًا لَّکُمۡ ؕ اِنَّمَا اللّٰہُ اِلٰہٌ وَّاحِدٌ ؕ سُبۡحٰنَہٗۤ اَنۡ یَّکُوۡنَ لَہٗ وَلَدٌ ۘ لَہٗ مَا فِی السَّمٰوٰتِ وَمَا فِی الۡاَرۡضِ ؕ وَکَفٰی بِاللّٰہِ وَکِیۡلًا ﴿۱۷۲
لَنۡ یَّسۡتَنۡکِفَ الۡمَسِیۡحُ اَنۡ یَّکُوۡنَ عَبۡدًا لِّلّٰہِ وَلَا الۡمَلٰٓئِکَۃُ الۡمُقَرَّبُوۡنَ ؕ وَمَنۡ یَّسۡتَنۡکِفۡ عَنۡ عِبَادَتِہٖ وَیَسۡتَکۡبِرۡ فَسَیَحۡشُرُہُمۡ اِلَیۡہِ جَمِیۡعًا ﴿۱۷۳﴾
Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
Ok , you are just using different definition.
It is not of importance anyway
Because we do not define 'Tample' the same , that is where our differences start.
When someone asks me , OK what does Tample mean in Christianity , i say to them you are asking the wrong question.Because it is not what it means to Christianity , it's what History tells about the crucifixition and the ressurection according to the Early Church.
Since the Early Church itself is matter of History , there are those who left enough to make conclusions about it.
In Christian belief it means that God himself is the Tample.
So the crucifixition and all the noise about the ressurection.It's pretty valid to me when Christians say that.It's part of the faith however.
We just say that is a matter of importance - to us, when others speak about our faith.
I just want to clarify about the Tample , nothing more.
Your answer just proves that we don't talk about the same thing.
Yes , but it tells something else.
I used however Jewish source for that.
You should read Isaiah 52,53.
That's Tanakh.
I don't persue to convince you in nothing religious , i am just speaking facts here.
You see , again the difference about the Tample.
We do not communicate on the same level.We talk about different things.
But what you think about 'Them' and 'Him' is irrelevant.It's what History tells about it.
And NT is part of it,me you or anyone else not agreeing with that is irrelevant also.
How do you know , since probably you have never read anything about it?
We are told to fight a spiritual war , so we again speak about two different things.
This is Jerusalem , right?
I think that we do not communicate on the same level.
We have different understanding of Theology.
Theology is not scientific , however it bothers with religious faith and expirience.
You are literally misrepresenting Christian belief.
There will always be war, untill something changes that.
You can't change such people if they don't allow you.That's how the world still tends to function.
If it's not a personal choice , it isn't important to me.
Everything that we say and how we act on what we say is of relevance.
War is there , because of Evil.
So you fight Evil.
To be Evil is also a personal choice.
This is just the final touch of my point
You are doing the work however , i don't have to waste me time too much.
I just hope you will see there are ways to discuss things propertly.
Christianity teaches also that Jesus is God.
You do not have the right just to pick a teaching and misrepresent it.
You need to read the whole Book of Isaiah.
But we need to establish first what crime is that he is guilty for.He did not came alone and said : Here i want to die.
He was accused , and he did not resisted.
Did he wanted to be killed ? I don't think so.He just predicted the way he dies , that's it.
Why do you make conclusions when you don't care anyway?
Jesus was crucified , not burned.
You see what you are consistent on?
Are you sure that you are able to explain the narrative of Genesis 18?
We can look up the lingua , no problem.
Woow , hold on a second.
You don't go from Genesis 18 to Exodus 33 just like that.
It doesn't seem so to me when i read the narrative.
Yes , but there is one who can do whatever he wants , whenever he wants.
Confusion? About what ? I just asked a simple question , you relating it with confusion is something else.
Well for start read it , and then read the NT.
If ofc , you want to talk about Jesus.
Because that's what the NT is about , Jesus.
Jesus himself quotes Isaiah , but whatever , i am sick to discuss it on this level.I don't do the convincing thing.
I read The Septuagint , the Scripture translated from Hebrew to Koine by the Jewish people at that timeline(not just any Jewish , but the finest)
These people , they understood Koine also , as in that time the lands were ruled by Alexander the Great , which means conflict of cultures and learning language is consequence of it.
I mean , what they did is the finest peace of work, when lingustic is considered.
The structure of Hebrew and Koine is not the same.But you probably don't know that either..
Some words cannot be translated however as every language is special in its way.
I accept that is the case with Hebrew also.
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Eliana
Member
I have read the bible and it didn't impress me. I have also read the entire Tanakh numerous times. I am also well aware of the Septuagint, in fact it's creation is documented in the Talmud. Only the Torah was translated and it's not considered authoritive anyway. The rabbi's at the time purposely mistranslated it in order to not offend the king, among other errors introduced.
On your best day you aren't half as smart as I am on my drunkest. When you have something to say other then insulting my intelligence let me know.
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That has not even started to happen...
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Romans 3:4 helps build Paul's argument about original sin, and he refers to a verse that is about the sin of David, so the nature of David's sin is relevant.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Wrong.
Ησαΐας (Isaiah) 53 :: Septuagint (LXX)
Ησαΐας (Isaiah) 53 - κύριε τίς ἐπίστευσεν τῇ ἀκοῇ ἡμῶν καὶ ὁ βραχίων κυρίου τίνι ἀπεκαλύφθη
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
It deals with it because the penalty for sin is death and persons are treated as being dead/artificial entities in law.
In fact, according to the Christian Bible there are 4, not three.Why Jews don't believe in Jesus
Jews of our time can never believe in Christian-Jesus as Christianity people make "Jesus-god" and or literal/physical "son of god" which he never was.
Right?
4:172
O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in your religion, and say not of Allah anything but the truth. Verily, the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah and a fulfilment of His word which He sent down to Mary, and a mercy from Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers, and say not ‘They are three.’ Desist, it will be better for you. Verily, Allah is the only One God. Far is it from His Holiness that He should have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as a Guardian.
4:173
Surely, the Messiah will never disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor will the angels near unto God; and whoso disdains to worship Him and feels proud, He will gather them all to Himself.
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
In Arabic, Chinese, English, French, German, Italian, Spanish and Urdu.
Regards
______________________
4:172-173
یٰۤاَہۡلَ الۡکِتٰبِ لَا تَغۡلُوۡا فِیۡ دِیۡنِکُمۡ وَلَا تَقُوۡلُوۡا عَلَی اللّٰہِ اِلَّا الۡحَقَّ ؕ اِنَّمَا الۡمَسِیۡحُ عِیۡسَی ابۡنُ مَرۡیَمَ رَسُوۡلُ اللّٰہِ وَکَلِمَتُہٗ ۚ اَلۡقٰہَاۤ اِلٰی مَرۡیَمَ وَرُوۡحٌ مِّنۡہُ ۫ فَاٰمِنُوۡا بِاللّٰہِ وَرُسُلِہٖ ۚ۟ وَلَا تَقُوۡلُوۡا ثَلٰثَۃٌ ؕ اِنۡتَہُوۡا خَیۡرًا لَّکُمۡ ؕ اِنَّمَا اللّٰہُ اِلٰہٌ وَّاحِدٌ ؕ سُبۡحٰنَہٗۤ اَنۡ یَّکُوۡنَ لَہٗ وَلَدٌ ۘ لَہٗ مَا فِی السَّمٰوٰتِ وَمَا فِی الۡاَرۡضِ ؕ وَکَفٰی بِاللّٰہِ وَکِیۡلًا ﴿۱۷۲
لَنۡ یَّسۡتَنۡکِفَ الۡمَسِیۡحُ اَنۡ یَّکُوۡنَ عَبۡدًا لِّلّٰہِ وَلَا الۡمَلٰٓئِکَۃُ الۡمُقَرَّبُوۡنَ ؕ وَمَنۡ یَّسۡتَنۡکِفۡ عَنۡ عِبَادَتِہٖ وَیَسۡتَکۡبِرۡ فَسَیَحۡشُرُہُمۡ اِلَیۡہِ جَمِیۡعًا ﴿۱۷۳﴾
What did the Greek word theos (god/God/?) in the letters mean to the Hellenists and Romans of those cities? I have a lot of doubts.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
My mother in law, who was a Jew, and I suppose you would say she was apostate because she went to a conservative synagogue, said her rabbi said so many Jews were killed by the Nazis because they did not have a mezuzzah. I do not believe that, of course, but then again, her congregation did go to the ocean to throw a dead animal to express acknowledgment of sin I guess. P.S. She also thought Jesus was a false prophet.
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YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I thought it was awful and horrible when I heard it also. I still do think it's awful and horrible, but evidently that's what she was told.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
While Jewish identity is passed through the mother, which specific tribe a Jew is part of, and whether they are of Davidic lineage, goes only through the biological father. So for example, the child is not the tribe of a foster father or adoptive father, nor the tribe of the mother. This is why converts to Judaism, even though they are 100% part of the People of Israel, have no tribal affiliation.
The problem should be obvious at this point. As long as Christians continue to claim that Jesus was born of a virgin, they cannot simultaneously say that he was either tribe of Judah or of the Davidic line. Basically, you guys can claim virgin birth, or you can claim Davidic line, but you cannot claim both.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The McGuffey Reader is not as illustrious a source as Augustine, but is much catchier: "In Adam's fall, so sinned we all."
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Wow. I am not personally an atheist, but even I can see this is clearly bigotry. An atheist can be just as studied in Torah or the Bible as anyone else. In fact, you'd be surprised how many Religion professors are atheists. Not because they enjoy mocking religion, but because they find it fascinating.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Do you not see that when you bash Reform Rabbis, you are doing the very thing you are complaining about, dividing the Jewish people.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
No. It's not based on group membership. It's based on lack of practice. Actions. If Jay practiced, he probably would be able participate. It wouldn't take much to improve from what he's doing now.
... who does not practice ...
What happens if person doesn't practice? Use it or lose it.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The gospels do claim that Jesus is the Messiah. But you are correct that the Christian understanding of Messiah is quite different from that in the Tanakh.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Not true. They are dividing from me. In brief: They started it. I've tolerated it in the past. Not any more.
Besides we are united, in opposition. They are the negative role-models. Their behavior is a wonderful opportunity for learning what NOT to do.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
"Son of God," or "Child of God," is figurative speech. It is a metaphor that basically says, "This person is as close to God as a son is to a father." I'm sure a great many people have that closeness. Exodus 4:22 "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: Israel is My son, My firstborn.’"