Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

[IndigoChild5559]

Sure but Jesus is different. One example is his gift to raise the deceased, but let’s not derail this thread.

Don't you also believe that Elijah raised the dead and did other miracles?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No. It's not based on group membership. It's based on lack of practice. Actions. If Jay practiced, he probably would be able participate. It wouldn't take much to improve from what he's doing now.



... who does not practice ...

What happens if person doesn't practice? Use it or lose it.

I was once told the following story. I'm not sure which in which document it is recorded.

The famous Rebbe Zusche would go and study Torah with the Apikorsim, who would meet on the steps of the shul. This alarmed one of his students who asked him, how could he do this? The Rebbe replied, It's like eating an orange. I suck out the juice, and spit out the pits.

I think if the great Rebbe Zusche can learn from the Apikorsim, so can I.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don’t see that would alter the legal status of Jesus as Joseph’s adoptive son.

Because you are trying to use the rules of your own culture, rather than understand the rules of ours.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Let me ask you this question.

Regardless if Jesus was the Messiah of Jews or not, do you think, the Jewish leaders at the time of Jesus were on the Right Path? Were they good and fair? Did they treat Jesus fairly, and the people justly?

Yes. I do. Let me mention some of the things we know about the Pharisees.

• They took what had been a religion relegated to the priesthood, and made it the religion of the ordinary Jewish man.
• They helped work out Jewish law in a way that made it easier for people to keep those laws.
• They opened the synagogues, where Jews could meet locally for prayer and worship, for the study of Torah, and for community.
• They opened the first Jewish day schools, with the idea that every Jewish boy should be able to read the Torah for himself.
• They spread monotheism across the Roman empire. In addition to the many God Fearers who learned from them, many people were so moved that as much as 10% of the roman empire became Jewish. even a Roman emperor.

Were they perfect? How could they be perfect. They were ordinary human beings.

 

[YoursTrue]

I have read the bible and it didn't impress me. I have also read the entire Tanakh numerous times. I am also well aware of the Septuagint, in fact it's creation is documented in the Talmud. Only the Torah was translated and it's not considered authoritive anyway. The rabbi's at the time purposely mistranslated it in order to not offend the king, among other errors introduced.

On your best day you aren't half as smart as I am on my drunkest. When you have something to say other then insulting my intelligence let me know.

Ah, good day after Sabbath I believe. Not sure if your religion says it's ok to read these boards during Shabbos time. So just curious since you proclaim yourself as so smart -- regarding authoritative religious views -- why do you say conservative and reform Jews who like you also do not accept Christ as the Messiah (moshiach) are apostate?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

and many Jews believe now.

What do you mean by many. Do you simply mean a large number, like many people eat hot dogs? Or are you talking about a significant portion of the Jewish people?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That said, If I were a Jew seeking truth, the questions for my honest consideration in answering the messiahship of Jesus would be: If Jesus existed,
1. Who was he?
2. What was his teaching?

I would say we can't really know, since we have nothing written by Jesus. All we have are collections of legends about him. Some stories are much more probable, like that he taught Torah observance. Other stories are highly unlikely, like raising Lazarus from the dead. But in the end, all we can do is use our intelligence to make educated guesses.

3. Did he Die? (Why and how?)

It is actually pretty likely that he was crucified by the Romans, who crucified people left and right if they created any kind of disturbance.

4. Did he rise from the dead?

People don't come back from the dead.

5. What did the eye witnesses say?

We have no eye witness accounts. We have legends that built up around him in the decades following his death.

6. Is any part of the NT true?

Sure. Jesus gives a very typical Rabbinical response in Mark 12, quoting from the Torah:
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

7. Could Jesus be the promised king in Zechariah 14?

No. The word for Lord in Zechariah 14:9 is actually the tetragrammaton, the divine name of God. It does not refer to the messiah, who is a man. In Judaism, a great many of our prayers begin with the words: Baruch ata Adonai, eloheinu melech haolam. which means Blessed are you, Lord God, King of the universe...

(For this last question, I would consider reading the Revelation of Jesus Christ, The account of John).

I've read the book of Revelation. I'm not sure why you think it interprets Zechariah. You are far better off simply looking at the Hebrew text.

There I would 'probably' find one who fulfils the prophecies about the Mashiach which you listed. The one who matches the requirements.

Considering the reasons given why the Jews don't believe, Isaiah 55 comes to mind, particularly verses 8 - 11. I think this is a compelling reason to reconsider the disbelief.

I'm assuming this was a typo, and you meant to type Isaiah 53. I realize that Christians most fervently believe this passage is about Jesus, but Jews see it as being about Israel.

The motif of the servant runs throughout Isaiah. Although this servant is not explicitly identified in Isaiah 53, he is in other places. Isaiah 41:8 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think one major thing the law reveals is that no one is capable of keeping all the commandments all the time. Everyone falls short, except Jesus didn’t.

This is one of the teachings of Christianity that I personally find baffling. So, God curses the Jews with laws we cannot keep and a requirement to be perfect or go to hell... That doesn't sound very loving to me at all.

A see the law as a wonderful thing. It helps form me into a better person, and draws me closer to God.

Psalm 19
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

By definition of homophobia and anti-Semitism people throw around, then Quran is definitely both. Don't care what people think first rule of pleasing God.

Erm, yeah, there are definitely problems there. But I'm sure that given time, Islam will come to a different understanding of the nature of the Quran. We need to remember that Islam is the baby of the three monotheisms. It is only 1400 years old. Give it time. It will mature.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Wrong.

Ησαΐας (Isaiah) 53 :: Septuagint (LXX)

Ησαΐας (Isaiah) 53 - κύριε τίς ἐπίστευσεν τῇ ἀκοῇ ἡμῶν καὶ ὁ βραχίων κυρίου τίνι ἀπεκαλύφθη

www.blueletterbible.org

Eliana is not mistaken. The original translation ordered by the Pharaoh was only for the Torah. Later in time, other books also came to be translated, but the scholarship is significantly lower.

 

[Dimi95]

I have read the bible and it didn't impress me. I have also read the entire Tanakh numerous times. I am also well aware of the Septuagint, in fact it's creation is documented in the Talmud.

Irrelevant.
The Talmud is written 800 years later.

Only the Torah was translated and it's not considered authoritive anyway. The rabbi's at the time purposely mistranslated it in order to not offend the king, among other errors introduced.

Ok what is the evidence for it? The Talmud?

On your best day you aren't half as smart as I am on my drunkest. When you have something to say other then insulting my intelligence let me know.

As you say.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ok what is the evidence for it? The Talmud?

It is the Talmud that contains the story of the 72 scholars asked by the Pharaoh to translate the Torah, six from each tribe, working independently. According to the midrash, when the different translations were compared they were identical.

Other sources are Philo and Josephus.

 

[metis]

It deals with it because the penalty for sin is death and persons are treated as being dead/artificial entities in law.

So, what you are basically saying is that if a child dies and is not baptized it is going to hell.

 

[Jimmy]

Don't you also believe that Elijah raised the dead and did other miracles?

Sure but Jesus raised the most. However, Jesus is the one set to return with a new heaven and new earth not Elijah.

 

[Dimi95]

It is the Talmud that contains the story of the 72 scholars asked by the Pharaoh to translate the Torah, six from each tribe, working independently. According to the midrash, when the different translations were compared they were identical.

But that's not all of it.
There are other things of importance regarding what is stated in your answer.
So for example all this later Jewish writings are post-Christ era.
They just confirm what is written originally in The Septuagint , which is the oldest known Codex in Abrahamic religions.
You are right , Philo also tells the story and what is remarkable is how the writings were identical.Koine was official language in that time.Jews had to adopt and learn the official lingua at that time - period.
72 highly educated Jews as a number is highly probable if we consider the numbers of Jews in that time.That is a time period when democracy spread.
We are talking about 180 years gap.
I don't see why these writings are beeing questioned in the first place.
However after 70 years under foreign rule it is highly possible that there were 72 highly educated Jews who were able to translate the writings of Jewish History as best as possible.
I don't doubt it for a second as a fact.

It is very possible also that The Septuagint is treated like that by Rabbinic Judaism , because of the presence of the NT.The Septuagint version belongs itself in a different Canon and is written before the New Testament.

The Jews never adopted The Septuagint so they had nothing from any Septuagint to reject.It isn't as if first 'The Jews' accepted it and then 'The Jews' had a rejection ceremony.

It's just a different culture and different language.It was because Ptolemy II Philadelphus wanted to build a library that contained all the books in the world.
The Pharaoh was not Egyptian , he just inherited a dynasty that his Father created and took the Title of the previous ruler of that land.He was considered by his people to be the ruler of the Ptolemaic Kingdom which is later ancient Macedonian dynasty.
The Egyptians never confronted Alexander in the first place , since they accepted him as their liberator.
The burning of the library of Alexandria just shows us what kind of evidence is preserved from 3/2/1 century BC.
You don't go backwards in History , you start from somewere and you read to present time.

Other sources are Philo and Josephus.

Indeed.
But it is highly plausible that the so-called rejection apeared post-Christ era , so religious bias in that timeline is most likely to be true.
What about pre or Christ era itself?
Any mention of the Septuagint?
Many people make the mistake of thinking that Judaism at this time was some sort of monolith, that there was one thing called Judaism. In fact, Judaism in the first century AD was no more monolithic than modern Christianity is today. People are more widely aware of the diversity of modern Christianity.
There is no such thing as modern Christianity however , as it's too messy to even look it up as it is presented.In my whole life i have knowned only for traditional Christianity , which is splitted in two , Roman Catholic and Orthodox.
Denominations don't exist in Orthodoxy.
We say that we are Eastern Orthodox because East is what defines us geographically in some sense and to separate us from Oriental Orthodox.
(Oriental means 'of, from, or characteristic of Asia, especially East Asia.')

In Greek it means 'to correct opinion'.
Where i come from we don't say Orthodox.We say "Православие" which means right-way of worship.
Koine Greek is the Basis for Modern Greek , as it was basis for another alphabet.Cyril and Methodi also created another Alphabet , which is The Glagolic.
Later their disciples simplified that alphabet and that is how Cyrillic form was created.

Koine just evolved in many ways, like Hebrew did in the Canaanite group of languages.

It is pretty cool to see what kind of Christianity are people debating today.

Mainly everything else except traditional Christianity.
And traditional is Historically verifiable.
You are just uninformed about it.

Don't forget that The Tanakh was agreed by Jewish rabbis some time after the fall of Jerusalem. They had to reestablish the Jewish faith without the Temple worship. They agreed a canon with only the Hebrew books.

 

[Balthazzar]

I've seen this discussed here a bit and there is a lot of misinformation so here are some of the key (but not all) reasons Jews do not believe in Jesus.

The Messiah must be from David's line and from the tribe of Judah, Jesus was not.
The Messiah must rebuild the temple, the temple still stood when Jesus lived.
The Messiah must reunite the Jews, the Jews were not even scattered when Jesus lived.
The Messiah must be Jewish... duh.
The Messiah will establish world peace and rule justly, Jesus did not do this.
The Messiah will rule when the Torah is written in everyone's heart and all people acknowledge Hashem as G-d, Jesus did not do this.

In addition Jews do not accept the notion of a trinity or original sin. We do not believe G-d will assume a human form. Nowhere in Messianic prophecy is the Messiah G-d in human form or otherwise. Jews also do not believe anyone can assume responsibility for the sins of another. G-d also calls human sacrifice an abomination and condemns it in the strongest possible terms. There is nothing in Messianic prophecy about the Messiah dying and coming back at a later date, it says he will finish the job.

There's more, but that's a primer for anyone interested.

My guess is they are not able to believe in Jesus, same as anyone else - until they are able or have a reason to believe. It's not like we can legitimately fault anyone for the measure they've been given in life.

 

[Link]

Erm, yeah, there are definitely problems there. But I'm sure that given time, Islam will come to a different understanding of the nature of the Quran. We need to remember that Islam is the baby of the three monotheisms. It is only 1400 years old. Give it time. It will mature.

Maybe the problem is in the terms and how people define them.

 

[wellwisher]

I've seen this discussed here a bit and there is a lot of misinformation so here are some of the key (but not all) reasons Jews do not believe in Jesus.

The Messiah must be from David's line and from the tribe of Judah, Jesus was not.
The Messiah must rebuild the temple, the temple still stood when Jesus lived.
The Messiah must reunite the Jews, the Jews were not even scattered when Jesus lived.
The Messiah must be Jewish... duh.
The Messiah will establish world peace and rule justly, Jesus did not do this.
The Messiah will rule when the Torah is written in everyone's heart and all people acknowledge Hashem as G-d, Jesus did not do this.

In addition Jews do not accept the notion of a trinity or original sin. We do not believe G-d will assume a human form. Nowhere in Messianic prophecy is the Messiah G-d in human form or otherwise. Jews also do not believe anyone can assume responsibility for the sins of another. G-d also calls human sacrifice an abomination and condemns it in the strongest possible terms. There is nothing in Messianic prophecy about the Messiah dying and coming back at a later date, it says he will finish the job.

There's more, but that's a primer for anyone interested.

In Genesis, Satan was in the tree of knowledge of good and evil, with Knowledge of good and evil describing law. Law is Satanic as symbolize by the serpent in the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Lawwas never condoned by God. Adam and Eve were expelled for choosing law. Jesus was not about law, but about life; tree of life; will of his Father and not the will of Satan and law. If Jesus was under law he would have also become Satanic. The problem the Jews had was their prestige was based on law and specific rules. To do without law and their rules would have taken away their identity. They would have become more homogenized like the Gentiles.

Before Jesus began his ministry, he went into the desert to fast and pray. He was visited by Satan, who among other things, offers Jesus all the wealth and glory of the kingdoms of the earth, if he would bow and serve Satan. Had Jesus accepted the offer, he would have become the Messiah who was anticipated; rich and powerful and able to subdue and own even Rome. But Jesus refuses the offer, but he never questions the authority of Satan to make this offer. He knew his Father had given Satan the job of Lord of the Earth; mediator of good and evil, to look after Adam and Eve after the fall. They had chosen each other and via love kept them together. Jesus, by refusing the offer, messed up the Messiah prophesy of Satan. Jesus was the one but refused. This created a political war in Heaven; what do we do now; leading to full scale war, where Satan and 1/3 of the Angels are thrown from heaven; Revelations. Satan was high up in the chain of command with 1/3 of the Angels at his disposal.

Satan had been condoned in Heaven, by God, from before Adam and Eve, up to that war in heaven. He was doing God's will, but lost this special status after Jesus gummed up the works. This may be why the Messiah job is still left hanging. It made no sense after the desert. After Satan is thrown from heaven, humans do not see anything being different, but now the laws good and evil and Satan are no longer condoned by Heaven, even of still part of the earth and humans. Forgiveness of sins was needed in advance since people will continue like nothing changed, and they will nee some extra help and support, since Satan is now free lancing and on the rampage. Now law is used for evil purposes; law-fare, with many thinking this is good; sinning via the confusion would now be forgivable if there is a change of heart; sin no more.

 

[YoursTrue]

Not true. They are dividing from me. In brief: They started it. I've tolerated it in the past. Not any more.

Besides we are united, in opposition. They are the negative role-models. Their behavior is a wonderful opportunity for learning what NOT to do.

You probably have heard of Bar Kochba. Many Jews thought he was the Messiah, but things didn't work out too well.
But getting back to the thread to an extent, I find it interesting that one professed Jew is saying that conservative and reform Jews are apostate. Thus who is telling the truth about why Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah? And -- since many (Jews and non-Jews professing religion) do not really believe the Bible anyway, what's the point?

 

[Betho_br]

In Genesis, Satan was in the tree of knowledge of good and evil, with Knowledge of good and evil describing law. Law is Satanic as symbolize by the serpent in the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Lawwas never condoned by God. Adam and Eve were expelled for choosing law. Jesus was not about law, but about life; tree of life; will of his Father and not the will of Satan and law. If Jesus was under law he would have also become Satanic. The problem the Jews had was their prestige was based on law and specific rules. To do without law and their rules would have taken away their identity. They would have become more homogenized like the Gentiles.

Before Jesus began his ministry, he went into the desert to fast and pray. He was visited by Satan, who among other things, offers Jesus all the wealth and glory of the kingdoms of the earth, if he would bow and serve Satan. Had Jesus accepted the offer, he would have become the Messiah who was anticipated; rich and powerful and able to subdue and own even Rome. But Jesus refuses the offer, but he never questions the authority of Satan to make this offer. He knew his Father had given Satan the job of Lord of the Earth; mediator of good and evil, to look after Adam and Eve after the fall. They had chosen each other and via love kept them together. Jesus, by refusing the offer, messed up the Messiah prophesy of Satan. Jesus was the one but refused. This created a political war in Heaven; what do we do now; leading to full scale war, where Satan and 1/3 of the Angels are thrown from heaven; Revelations. Satan was high up in the chain of command with 1/3 of the Angels at his disposal.

Satan had been condoned in Heaven, by God, from before Adam and Eve, up to that war in heaven. He was doing God's will, but lost this special status after Jesus gummed up the works. This may be why the Messiah job is still left hanging. It made no sense after the desert. After Satan is thrown from heaven, humans do not see anything being different, but now the laws good and evil and Satan are no longer condoned by Heaven, even of still part of the earth and humans. Forgiveness of sins was needed in advance since people will continue like nothing changed, and they will nee some extra help and support, since Satan is now free lancing and on the rampage. Now law is used for evil purposes; law-fare, with many thinking this is good; sinning via the confusion would now be forgivable if there is a change of heart; sin no more.

I have been studying sacred writings since the age of ten, and at first glance, without intending to disrespect, the presented interpretative framework seems to be an exegesis of an extremist proselyte of the pseudo-Pauline theology of false Hellenistic Christianity. Many speculative points contradict the clear statements made by Paul about the Law in his original letters. In any case, all that is new evokes many feelings and should be analyzed from an impartial perspective.