Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

[Betho_br]

Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

Jews of our time can never believe in Christian-Jesus as Christianity people make "Jesus-god" and or literal/physical "son of god" which he never was, right, please?
Yes, Yeshua was the Israelite Messiah as Maryam aka Mary was informed by G-d even before he was born:

3:50
“And will make him a Messenger to the children of Israel (to say): ‘I come to you with a Sign from your Lord, which is, that I will fashion out for you a creation out of clay after the manner of a bird, then I will breathe into it a new spirit and it will become a soaring being by the command of Allah; and I will heal the night-blind and the leprous, and I will quicken the dead, by the command of Allah; and I will announce to you what you will eat and what you will store up in your houses. Surely, therein is a Sign for you, if you be believers.

Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

In Arabic, Chinese, English, French, German, Italian, Spanish and Urdu.

www.alislam.org

Right?

Regards
____________________
3:50
۬ۙ اَنِّیۡ قَدۡ جِئۡتُکُمۡ بِاٰیَۃٍ مِّنۡ رَّبِّکُمۡ ۙ اَنِّیۡۤ اَخۡلُقُ لَکُمۡ مِّنَ الطِّیۡنِ کَہَیۡـَٔۃِ الطَّیۡرِ فَاَنۡفُخُ فِیۡہِ فَیَکُوۡنُ طَیۡرًۢا بِاِذۡنِ اللّٰہِ ۚ وَاُبۡرِیٴُ الۡاَکۡمَہَ وَالۡاَبۡرَصَ وَاُحۡیِ الۡمَوۡتٰی بِاِذۡنِ اللّٰہِ ۚ وَاُنَبِّئُکُمۡ بِمَا تَاۡکُلُوۡنَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُوۡنَ ۙ فِیۡ بُیُوۡتِکُمۡ ؕ اِنَّ فِیۡ ذٰلِکَ لَاٰیَۃً لَّکُمۡ اِنۡ کُنۡتُمۡ مُّؤۡمِنِیۡنَ ﴿ۚ۵۰

1) "Jesus-god": The Christian Bible does not explicitly/literally state that Jesus is the Almighty God.

2) literal/physical "son of god": This is complex. Because the Hebrew Bible uses the term “sons of God/god” for other beings on earth.

 

[Brian2]

I've seen this discussed here a bit and there is a lot of misinformation so here are some of the key (but not all) reasons Jews do not believe in Jesus.

The Messiah must be from David's line and from the tribe of Judah, Jesus was not.
The Messiah must rebuild the temple, the temple still stood when Jesus lived.
The Messiah must reunite the Jews, the Jews were not even scattered when Jesus lived.
The Messiah must be Jewish... duh.
The Messiah will establish world peace and rule justly, Jesus did not do this.
The Messiah will rule when the Torah is written in everyone's heart and all people acknowledge Hashem as G-d, Jesus did not do this.

In addition Jews do not accept the notion of a trinity or original sin. We do not believe G-d will assume a human form. Nowhere in Messianic prophecy is the Messiah G-d in human form or otherwise. Jews also do not believe anyone can assume responsibility for the sins of another. G-d also calls human sacrifice an abomination and condemns it in the strongest possible terms. There is nothing in Messianic prophecy about the Messiah dying and coming back at a later date, it says he will finish the job.

There's more, but that's a primer for anyone interested.

I have just been listening to a short video from someone who seems to have been a Jew who became a Christian and realise that the video answers/speaks of some of the points that you raise.

 

[dybmh]

I have just been listening to a short video from someone who seems to have been a Jew who became a Christian and realise that the video answers/speaks of some of the points that you raise.

Please extract and provide the reasons that are given in the video?

 

[dybmh]

@metis and @dybmh just to mention that my father in law claimed to have been a Levite. He hardly ever went to synagogue, from the time I knew him he did not go to synagogue even for what is referred to as the High Holidays. He couldn't read Hebrew. Did not keep kosher. But they swore he was a Levite. When I asked how he knew I was told it is a word of mouth thing, passed on. Then when I asked an Orthodox Jew how come there are no records he said there is a synagogue with records. We didn't talk very long so I guess it's a good question. My brother in law believes he is a Levite also and says he gets messages from God.

Is your birth mother Jewish? Were you delivered from a Jewish womb?

 

[YoursTrue]

Is your birth mother Jewish? Were you delivered from a Jewish womb?

Does that make a difference to you? Or -- why are you asking?

 

[paarsurrey]

... a Messenger ...



... The Messiah ...



No. A messenger is not necessarily The Messiah.

But the Messiah has to be necessarily a Prophet/Messenger of G-d, right, please?

Regards

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's right .. re. armageddon, don't you watch the news?

People have been shouting "Armegeddon!" for 2000 years. The world is still turning on its axis.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@metis and @dybmh just to mention that my father in law claimed to have been a Levite. He hardly ever went to synagogue, from the time I knew him he did not go to synagogue even for what is referred to as the High Holidays. He couldn't read Hebrew. Did not keep kosher. But they swore he was a Levite. When I asked how he knew I was told it is a word of mouth thing, passed on.

It really is quite common for Jews to know if they are Levites, especially when they have last names like Cohen, Kohn, Levi, Levine, Levy, Levitz, etc. etc.

Then when I asked an Orthodox Jew how come there are no records he said there is a synagogue with records.

Although keeping family records is more of a family thing than a synagogue thing, there are certain Jewish institutions that are helpful with establishing Jewish family trees, especially when so many Jewish families lost their records during the holocaust:

• Yad Vashem: This Israeli institution has a comprehensive database of Jewish families affected by the Holocaust
• The Central Archives for the History of the Jewish People: Located in Jerusalem, it holds a vast collection of Jewish historical documents and records.
• The Jewish Genealogical Society: Various branches of this society offer resources and support.
• The American Jewish Archives: Based in Cincinnati, this institution collects and preserves Jewish records and genealogical information in the U.S.
• JewishGen: An online resource that provides access to a wide range of Jewish genealogical records and databases.

We didn't talk very long so I guess it's a good question. My brother in law believes he is a Levite also and says he gets messages from God.

Messages from God? Maybe I shouldn't ask LOL.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Using the words "non-adherent Jew" rather than apostate creates a constructive debate which should be considered first.

I think the phrase you are looking for is non observant Jew, or non religious Jew. it's really not the same thing as apostate. An apostate Jew would be one that has converted to another religion. If a Jew becomes secular, they are not apostate. They are simply not observant.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well you're probably happy. Less Orthodox Jews makes your work here easier.

That is really not a fair accusation.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@Jayhawker Soule , which would you prefer? Apostate or Non-Adherent Jew?

Jay can speak for himself what he prefers, but I think the term you are looking for is non observant Jew, not Apostate.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I have just been listening to a short video from someone who seems to have been a Jew who became a Christian and realise that the video answers/speaks of some of the points that you raise.

The problem you will face with listening to people like Dr. Michael Brown is that he has a lot of misleading information, that is catered to gain Christian financial support, which is predicated on the fact that most Christians can't fact check his claims in Hebrew and Aramaic. One of the challenges that some Jews have with debating him is that in order to really address his claims you have to do it in Hebrew and Aramaic, and you would have to willing to offend certain Christian sensabilities.

Just be aware, there is nothing about Dr. Brown's caims that are new. The same arguements were used 100's of years ago by Pablo Christiani in a disputation that Rabbi Mosheh ben-Nachman was forced into.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I have just been listening to a short video from someone who seems to have been a Jew who became a Christian and realise that the video answers/speaks of some of the points that you raise.

Although Dr Michael Brown is technically a Jew, his views do not represent Judaism. He is a Christian, as you acknowledge. The stuff he says in his videos is the same stuff Christians have been saying for 2000 years. They have not been convincing for 2000 years.

If you think he makes good points, please pick one or two and tell us what they are, so that we can reply. Thanks.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

As a side question, what is the Hebrew word for apostate?

There isn't one word for that, there are several. It depends on what exactly they are about.

Before I give the list the quailfier is important, it is described that there are certian types of Jews who have no place in the world to come, but for the most part this would have to be a Jew who knew / knows that reality already and tries to publically deny it for very speciic reasons, normally associated with tripping up other Jews.

Here is a list from the Mishnah Torah:

1. Min (singular) / Minim (Plural) -Five individuals are described as Minim:
   • one who says there is Source of reality / nor ruler of the reality;
   • one who accepts the concept of a ruler, but maintains that there are two or more;
   • one who accepts that there is one Master [of the world], but maintains that He has a body or form;
   • one who maintains that Hashem was not the sole First Being and Creator of all existence;
   • one who serves a star, constellation, or other entity so that it will serve as an intermediary between him and Hashem.
2. Epicursim - Three individuals are described as Epicursim:
   • one who denies the existence of prophecy and maintains that there is no knowledge communicated from Hashem to the hearts of men;
   • one who disputes the prophecy of Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses)
   • one who maintains that Hashem is not aware of the deeds of men.
3. Kofrim of the Torah -There are three individuals who are considered as one "who denies the Torah":
   • one who says Torah, even one line or one word, is not from Hashem. If he says: "Mosheh (Moses) made these statements independently or anyone else," he/she is Kofer of the Torah.
   • one who denies the Torah's interpretation, the oral law, or disputes [the authority of] its spokesmen.
   • one who says that though the Torah came from Hashem, the Creator has replaced one mitzvah with another one and nullified the original Torah.
4. HaMeshumadim - there are two categories of Meshumadim: an Meshumadim in regard to a single mitzvah and an Meshumadim in regard to the entire Torah.
   • An Meshumad in regard to a single mitzvah is someone who has made a practice of willfully committing a particular transgression of the Torah [to the point where] he is accustomed to committing it and his deeds are public knowledge. [This applies] even though [the transgression] is one of the minor ones. For example, someone who has made a practice of constantly wearing sha'atnez or cutting off his sideburns so that it appears that, in regard to him, it is as if this mitzvah has been nullified entirely. Such a person is considered an Meshumad in regard to that matter. This applies [only] if he [commits the transgression of the Torah] with the intent of angering Hashem.
   • An example of an Meshumad in regard to the entire Torah is one who turn to the ways of the nations when they enact [harsh] decrees [against the Jews] and clings to them, saying: "What value do I have in clinging to Israel while they are debased and pursued. It's better to cling to those who have the upper hand." Such an individual is an Meshumad in regard to the entire Torah.
5. Mahti'ey Harabim - "those who cause the many to sin" includes those who cause them to commit a severe sin like Jeroboam, Tzadok, or Beitus; and also, those who cause them to commit a slight sin, even the nullification of a positive command.
   • It includes [both] those who force others to sin like Menasheh who would kill the Jews if they did not worship idols and those who entice others and lead them astray.
6. HaPoresh Midarchei Tzibur - A person who separates himself from the community [may be placed in this category] even though he has not transgressed any transgressions.
   • A person who separates himself from the congregation of Israel and does not fulfill mitzvot together with them, does not take part in their hardships, or join in their [communal] fasts, but rather goes on his own individual path as if he is from another nation and not [Israel], does not have a portion in the world to come.
   • "Those who proudly commit sins in public as Jehoyakim did," whether they commit slight transgressions or severe ones, have no portion in the world to come. Such behavior is referred to as "acting brazen-facedly against the Torah," for he acted insolently, in open [defiance], without feeling any shame despite the Torah's words.

There are a few more, but you get the idea that it varies. Further, it is considered by some that most Jews, post about 2nd Temple period, would not be considered to be truly in the above categories. It would be considered that due to the circumstances of the exiles and the hardships faced in many countries over the centuries that most Jews who meet he above categories are simply Am Haaretz (those who don't know Torah or weren't taught it properly) or Tinok Hasnishba (Jewish children kidnapped at birth / or young age and raised as if they were never Jewish / or not having a clear idea of what the Torah really is).

There is a concept that the idea of a true apostate from the Torah is someone who is very knowledgable, knows what the truth is but denies it - starts a movement, and so one, and not an average Jew.

 

[YoursTrue]

There isn't one word for that, there are several. It depends on what exactly they are about.

Before I give the list the quailfier is important, it is described that there are certian types of Jews who have no place in the world to come, but for the most part this would have to be a Jew who knew / knows that reality already and tries to publically deny it for very speciic reasons, normally associated with tripping up other Jews.

Here is a list from the Mishnah Torah:

1. Min (singular) / Minim (Plural) -Five individuals are described as Minim:
   • one who says there is Source of reality / nor ruler of the reality;
   • one who accepts the concept of a ruler, but maintains that there are two or more;
   • one who accepts that there is one Master [of the world], but maintains that He has a body or form;
   • one who maintains that Hashem was not the sole First Being and Creator of all existence;
   • one who serves a star, constellation, or other entity so that it will serve as an intermediary between him and Hashem.
2. Epicursim - Three individuals are described as Epicursim:
   • one who denies the existence of prophecy and maintains that there is no knowledge communicated from Hashem to the hearts of men;
   • one who disputes the prophecy of Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses)
   • one who maintains that Hashem is not aware of the deeds of men.
3. Kofrim of the Torah -There are three individuals who are considered as one "who denies the Torah":
   • one who says Torah, even one line or one word, is not from Hashem. If he says: "Mosheh (Moses) made these statements independently or anyone else," he/she is Kofer of the Torah.
   • one who denies the Torah's interpretation, the oral law, or disputes [the authority of] its spokesmen.
   • one who says that though the Torah came from Hashem, the Creator has replaced one mitzvah with another one and nullified the original Torah.
4. HaMeshumadim - there are two categories of Meshumadim: an Meshumadim in regard to a single mitzvah and an Meshumadim in regard to the entire Torah.
   • An Meshumad in regard to a single mitzvah is someone who has made a practice of willfully committing a particular transgression of the Torah [to the point where] he is accustomed to committing it and his deeds are public knowledge. [This applies] even though [the sin] is one of the minor ones. For example, someone who has made a practice of constantly wearing sha'atnez or cutting off his sideburns so that it appears that, in regard to him, it is as if this mitzvah has been nullified entirely. Such a person is considered an Meshumad in regard to that matter. This applies [only] if he [commits the transgression of the Torah] with the intent of angering Hashem.
   • An example of an Meshumad in regard to the entire Torah is one who turn to the ways of the nations when they enact [harsh] decrees [against the Jews] and clings to them, saying: "What value do I have in clinging to Israel while they are debased and pursued. It's better to cling to those who have the upper hand." Such an individual is an Meshumad in regard to the entire Torah.
5. Mahti'ey Harabim - "those who cause the many to sin" includes those who cause them to commit a severe sin like Jeroboam, Tzadok, or Beitus; and also, those who cause them to commit a slight sin, even the nullification of a positive command.
   • It includes [both] those who force others to sin like Menasheh who would kill the Jews if they did not worship idols and those who entice others and lead them astray.
6. HaPoresh Midarchei Tzibur - A person who separates himself from the community [may be placed in this category] even though he has not transgressed any transgressions.
   • A person who separates himself from the congregation of Israel and does not fulfill mitzvot together with them, does not take part in their hardships, or join in their [communal] fasts, but rather goes on his own individual path as if he is from another nation and not [Israel], does not have a portion in the world to come.
   • "Those who proudly commit sins in public as Jehoyakim did," whether they commit slight transgressions or severe ones, have no portion in the world to come. Such behavior is referred to as "acting brazen-facedly against the Torah," for he acted insolently, in open [defiance], without feeling any shame despite the Torah's words.

There are a few more, but you get the idea that it varies. Further, it is considered by some that most Jews, post about 2nd Temple period, would not be considered to be truly in the above categories. It would be considered that due to the circumstances of the exiles and the hardships faced in many countries over the centuries that most Jews who meet he above categories are simply Am Haaretz (those who don't know Torah or weren't taught it properly) or Tinok Hasnishba (Jewish children kidnapped at birth / or young age and raised as if they were never Jewish / or not having a clear idea of what the Torah really is).

There is a concept that the idea of a true apostate from the Torah is someone who is very knowledgable, knows what the truth is but denies it - starts a movement, and so one, and not an average Jew.

Thinking about morality, this is one reason why the world is in such a mess. All of the above plus more.

 

[Betho_br]

Thinking about morality, this is one reason why the world is in such a mess. All of the above plus more.

Your statement is complex...

This issue was addressed in the Western world through positivist law. Aristotle said that virtue lies in the mean (moderation). In some countries, they tried to resolve the conflict of powers (judiciary, legislative, executive) with a moderating power, etc. Others attempted to resolve it with the alternation of power (democracy).

 

[YoursTrue]

Your statement is complex...

This issue was addressed in the Western world through positivist law. Aristotle said that virtue lies in the mean (moderation). In some countries, they tried to resolve the conflict of powers (judiciary, legislative, executive) with a moderating power, etc. Others attempted to resolve it with the alternation of power (democracy).

I'm not too interested in examining Aristotle's thinking. I do agree that governments have different standards based on the majority religious standing.

 

[Link]

Your statement is complex...

This issue was addressed in the Western world through positivist law. Aristotle said that virtue lies in the mean (moderation). In some countries, they tried to resolve the conflict of powers (judiciary, legislative, executive) with a moderating power, etc. Others attempted to resolve it with the alternation of power (democracy).

The west is controlled by a few who have most power and money. It's an oligarchy. The election plays little role in policy. There is an elite that form most decisions.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The west is controlled by a few who have most power and money. It's an oligarchy. The election plays little role in policy. There is an elite that form most decisions.

That is what it is becoming, I would agree.
However, all power is with G-d .. He is aware of all things.

 

[YoursTrue]

The west is controlled by a few who have most power and money. It's an oligarchy. The election plays little role in policy. There is an elite that form most decisions.

I was astonished when I decided to take a look at the Congressional Record of the U.S.