Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

[1213]

That doctrine draws from Paul's misrepresentation of David's sin in Romans 3:4

Sorry, I don't see how.

 

[Ebionite]

Sorry, I don't see how.

You have to drill down into what the verse references to see it.

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Romans 3:4

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done [this] evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, [and] be clear when thou judgest.
Psalms 51:4

(To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.) Have mercy upon me, O Elohim, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Psalms 51:1

Nathan's parable of David's sin involving Bathsheba does not have any reference do dishonesty, and David is named a witness, which would not be appropriate if he was a liar.

Behold, I have given him [for] a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
Isaiah 55:4

 

[Colt]

Okay. Where does that belief come from? Text or your personal feeling?

My beliefs come from the Urantia Book revelation. While the bible mentions some of what I posted much more has been revealed in the UB which vastly expands our understanding of our ancient world, our universe's origins and destiny, God etc.

 

[Eliana]

Maybe not according to you, better check your Hebrew scripture.

I'm sorry, tell me again the source of your expertise on Halakha and the Tanakh?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I have understood sin is to reject God, or to be without God.

OK.

But, what do you think sin means?

Feel free to scan this if you wish, but the question is not relevant. We're not talking about my view of sin but about Christianity's concept of original sin and Judaism's rejection of that view.

 

[dybmh]

Hi JameScott,

Welcome to the forum and to this discussion.

I wonder if it is possible to say for certain that the Jews still miss the point, and are therefore left waiting for the Mashiach? I am inclined to think so.

I'm Jewish. And I agree. However, I would use slightly different words. Previously in the thread I mentioned to the OP that frequently the two opposing sides are talking past each other. And, that from the Jewish perspective we ( Jews ) often are nibbling around the edges of a much larger issue when we bring reasons why we don't not believe Jesus is the Mashiach foretold in prophecy. That's how I describe what I think you're observing: "Talking past each other" and "nibbling around the edges of a larger conflict"

3. Did he Die? (Why and how?)
4. Did he rise from the dead?

This is an example of talking past each other. Whether he died and rose is irrelevant to evaluating a candidate for the title of Mashiach from a Jewish perspective, but it is the most important feature of Christian theology. If I grant, for the sake of discussion, that Jesus died and rose, what does that have to do with Mashiach?

This is also an example of nibbling around the edges of a larger issue. The larger issue is: fidelity to the Hebrew Bible. Christians, very frequently, explicitly or implicitly declare that Jewish people are blind to the meaning of our own scripture. They usually site words of the Hebrew prophets to support this. Then we Jews will defend ourselves and our scripture, and often the discussion degrades into minutia and/or name-calling.

I'm curious. What is your response to this?

 

[Betho_br]

Because there is little if any Hebrew scripture that identifies Jesus as a messiah, and Christian doctrine is not well supported by the Tanak.

On the other hand, there Hebrew scripture about the righteous servant (Isaiah 53 and Psalm 35) has several connections to the Jesus of the gospels, although the Christian crucifixion narrative is not a good fit for Isaiah 53.

Because this is not an empty Word to you, but it is your Life, and on account of the Word of this you shall prolong your days upon the earth, into which you are crossing over the Jordan there to inherit it. Deuteronomy 32:47 LXX Greek

"By myself I have sworn, a Word of righteousness has gone out from my mouth and shall not return; for to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." (Is 45:23 Hebrew])

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matthew 24:14 KJV

John 1:14 NVI
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Romans 1:8 KJV
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

In my understanding, Jesus has already fulfilled His Christological mission.

 

[Eliana]

Because this is not an empty Word to you, but it is your Life, and on account of the Word of this you shall prolong your days upon the earth, into which you are crossing over the Jordan there to inherit it. Deuteronomy 32:47 LXX Greek

"By myself I have sworn, a Word of righteousness has gone out from my mouth and shall not return; for to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." (Is 45:23 Hebrew])

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matthew 24:14 KJV

John 1:14 NVI
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Romans 1:8 KJV
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

In my understanding, Jesus has already fulfilled His Christological mission.

That's nice. He didn't fulfill the Jewish one which is the subject of my thread.

 

[I Am Hugh]

I'm sorry, tell me again the source of your expertise on Halakha and the Tanakh?

I've just told you, I've no interest in Jewish (or Christian for that matter) tradition, but the genealogies are the refutation to the portion of your OP relevant. Those genealogies are the same in the Christian scriptures as the Hebrew. They have the same source, the legal documentation of the Messiah kept for ages in the Temple of Jerusalem. The originals are destroyed now. They no longer document anything, so there can't be another messiah. Some other stuff I inquired you to elaborate on, but it's too late for that if it is true that they have no substance or hell has no fury like a poster scorned.

 

[dybmh]

the genealogies are the refutation

No, they're not. There is good reason to believe they were added, fraudulently, after the Gospel of Mark was not productive in converting Jews.

 

[JameScott]

Hi JameScott,

Welcome to the forum and to this discussion.



I'm Jewish. And I agree. However, I would use slightly different words. Previously in the thread I mentioned to the OP that frequently the two opposing sides are talking past each other. And, that from the Jewish perspective we ( Jews ) often are nibbling around the edges of a much larger issue when we bring reasons why we don't not believe Jesus is the Mashiach foretold in prophecy. That's how I describe what I think you're observing: "Talking past each other" and "nibbling around the edges of a larger conflict"



This is an example of talking past each other. Whether he died and rose is irrelevant to evaluating a candidate for the title of Mashiach from a Jewish perspective, but it is the most important feature of Christian theology. If I grant, for the sake of discussion, that Jesus died and rose, what does that have to do with Mashiach?

This is also an example of nibbling around the edges of a larger issue. The larger issue is: fidelity to the Hebrew Bible. Christians, very frequently, explicitly or implicitly declare that Jewish people are blind to the meaning of our own scripture. They usually site words of the Hebrew prophets to support this. Then we Jews will defend ourselves and our scripture, and often the discussion degrades into minutia and/or name-calling.

I'm curious. What is your response to this?

Hi Dybmh,

That's an interesting point. You hit the bulls eye of this discussion. It is true that Christians do often see Jews in that sense. Jews stand their ground and defend their view point. So I can understand better what you are saying, let me get clarification first. When you say nibbling around the edges and talking past each other, you mean that both sides assert what they believe without directly critically analysing the question or topic being discussed, Is that so? Let me consider the example of this that you have given from my previous post; the topic discussed is evaluating s candidate for the title of Mashiach from the Jewish perspective. But I brought up the question of Jesus' death and resurrection, which in your view, is not relevant to the topic.

Let's agree, the scriptures of the Jews are the scriptures of the Christians. The Tanakh: the Torah, the Nevi'im, and the Ketuvim are also the scriptures of the Christian. This should bring Christians and Jews together as the uniting factor. Christians Honour the Jewish scriptures as God's everlasting word. The dividing point is what the Christians call the Gospel, (the new testament). This part also comes from the Jews, not some other faith or nation, and it also talks about to the same God, Not a foreign God (by "God" I mean the God who brought the Israelites out of Egypt). This calls for the Jews to consider whether the New testament (NT) is True.

That said. In my post I did not begin by discussing the death and resurrection of Jesus as the headline in response to the main topic, but rather, I started with the Question:
Who was Jesus?; followed by
What was his message?. followed by
is the NT true?

Jesus is the one discussed as the candidate for the title of Mashiach. (The topic is Reasons why the Jews do not believe in Jesus).

If Jesus is the candidate in question, Should we not consider the information we know about him?
If the Jewish perspective of the Mashiach is the standard criteria or, the Litmus test, then let it be applied to Jesus.

But Let it be applied with Justice by understanding to all the information available about the man.

Since his death and resurrection is accepted as you say for purposes of this discussion, it is then vital information about him. Vital information about him includes what he said regarding the scriptures especially after his resurrection (feel free to consider 1 & 2 critically). The same Tanakh is interpreted by him revealing information worth considering when deciding whether Jesus is the Mashiach. This information responds directly to the Question: Was Jesus the Mashiach?
(how do we know what was explained about the scriptures? -> See NT including the last book).

The next Key question to ask here is: is this the truth?
This is the cross roads for the Jews examining this matter, and the decision must be made. However, it helps to be armed with detailed information about the man Jesus.

The verdict ultimately requires more than just intellect, but some wisdom too. On this point, I referenced Isaiah 55:8-11.
We are discussing matters pertaining to a supreme being, a certain level of reverence must be afforded. This is because no human sets these events into motion, nor sustains the universe, nor can fathom the mind of God. (It can be said we are no more than ants attempting to navigate to the peak of mount Kilimanjaro).

So, Yes, The death and resurrection of Jesus is relevant in determining whether he qualifies to be the Mashiach.
But let me add this: If you prefer to keep the discussion to the criteria of what the mashiach will do in the strictest sense, using the plain meaning rule; to decide who the Mashiach is; perhaps Jesus is not the Mashiach after all.

Food for thought: If we remove Jesus out of history, What do you see?

I invite you to have a private conversation if you like.​

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I've just told you, I've no interest in Jewish (or Christian for that matter) tradition, ...

So, naturally, you're driven to pontificate in a thread titled "Why Jews don't believe in Jesus."

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

why-jews-dont-believe-in-jesus

I can't remember a single Christian who has said that Jesus didn't fulfill OT messianic prophecy, nor a single non-Christian who agrees with them that he did. What's the difference? Motivated reasoning on the part of the faith-based thinker. From Wiki:

• Motivated reasoning (motivational reasoning bias) is a cognitive and social response in which individuals, consciously or sub-consciously, allow emotion-loaded motivational biases to affect how new information is perceived. Individuals tend to favor evidence that coincides with their current beliefs and reject new information that contradicts them, despite contrary evidence. [snip] Motivated reasoning overlaps with confirmation bias. [snip] Motivated reasoning differs from critical thinking, in which beliefs are assessed with a skeptical but open-minded attitude.

The critical thinker looks at the list of requirements for the Messiah and Jesus' biography and sees that they don't match. The motivated reasoner begins with assumption that the OT is referring to Jesus and tries to massage OT scripture to make it fit as we are seeing on this thread.

Here are two lists I've copied from other RF posters, much of which appeared in the OP. This simply does not describe Jesus, but when I was a Christian, that was never an issue for me. The Christian apologist will look for something to disagree with from these lists, but can't reconcile them all, and that won't be an issue for him or her, either:

1. He must be a Jew (Deut 17:15, Num 24:17) - The only condition fulfilled by Jesus.
2. He must be a direct descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1) through King Solomon (I Proverbs 22:8-10), only if Solomon kept his faith in God Yahweh (II Chronicles 7 :19) which, however, did not keep finally (1 Kings 11:4).
3. The Great Sanhedrin (Great Council) will be restored (Isaiah 1:26)
4. Once he is king, the leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
5. All the world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
6. The Messiah will be a man of the world, an observant Jew with the "fear of God." He won't be divine. (Isaiah 11:2)
7. Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership. (Isaiah 11:4)
8. The knowledge of God will fill the world. (Isaiah 11:9)
9. It will attract people from all cultures and nations. (Isaiah 11:10)
10. All the Israelites will return to their homeland. (Isaiah 11:12)
11. There will be no more famine or disease, and death will end. (Isaiah 25:8)
12. All the dead will rise. (Isaiah 26:19)
13. The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and rejoicing. (Isaiah 51:11)
14. He will be a messenger of peace. (Isaiah 52:7)
15. The nations will recognize the mistakes they made in Israel. (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
16. The people of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance. (Zechariah 8:23)
17. The ruined cities of Israel will be restored. (Ezekiel 16:55)
18. The weapons of war will be destroyed. (Ezekiel 39:9)
19. The Temple will be rebuilt. (Ezekiel 40)
20. The whole world will serve God together. (Zephaniah 3:9)
21. The Jews will know the Torah (Testament), without study. (Jeremiah 31:33)
22. He will take barren land and make it fruitful and abundant. (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9).
23. Universal worldwide acceptance of the Jewish God and the Jewish religion (Isaiah 2:3 11:10 66:23 Micah 4:2-3 Zechariah 14:9) Zechariah 8:23

******

[I deleted the first bullet point, since it claimed that the Messiah would be born of human parents, but came with no scriptural reference]

2. The Messiah can trace his lineage through his human biological father, back to King David (Isaiah 11:1,10; Jeremiah 23:5; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:21-28; Jeremiah 30:7-10; 33:14-16; Hosea 3:4-5). According to Christian theology, Jesus’s father was Gd. Therefore, Jesus’ lineage does not go through his human ‘father’ — Joseph, the husband of Mary.

3. The Messiah traces his lineage only through King Solomon (II Samuel 7:12-17; I Chronicles 22:9-10). But according to Luke 3:31, Jesus was not a descendant of Solomon, but of Solomon’s half-brother Nathan. Therefore Jesus was not a descendant of King David through King Solomon, and fails this test as well.

4. The Messiah may not be a descendant of Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed. (I Chronicles 3:15-17; Jeremiah 22:18,30). But according to Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel.

5. The Messiah is preceded by Elijah the prophet who, together with the Messiah, unifies the family (Malachi 4:5-6). This is contradicted by Jesus himself (Matthew 10:34-37).

According to the traditional Jewish definition of the term, the Messiah will make changes in the real world, changes that one can see and perceive and be able to prove, precisely because they take place in the real world. It is for this task that the Messiah has been anointed in the first place, hence the term, messiah — one who is anointed. These perceptible changes include:

6. The Messiah reestablishes the Davidic dynasty through his own children (Daniel 7:13-14). But Jesus had no children.

7. The Messiah brings an eternal peace between all nations, all peoples, and all people (Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Ezekiel 39:9). Obviously there is no peace. Furthermore, Jesus said that his purpose in coming was to bring a sword, and not peace (see Matthew 10:34, as referenced above).

8. The Messiah brings about the world-wide conversion of all peoples to Ethical Monotheism (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Zechariah 8:23; Isaiah 11:9; Zechariah 14:9,16).
But the world remains steeped in idolatry.

9. The Messiah brings about an end to all forms of idolatry (Zechariah 13:2).
But the world remains steeped in idolatry.

10. The Messiah brings about a universal recognition that the Jewish idea of Gd is Gd (Isaiah 11:9).
But the world remains steeped in idolatry.

11. The Messiah leads the world to become vegetarian (Isaiah 11:6-9).

12. The Messiah gathers to Israel all of the twelve tribes (Ezekiel 36:24).

13. The Messiah rebuilds the Temple (Isaiah 2:2; Ezekiel 37:26-28).

14. After the Messiah comes, there will be no more famine (Ezekiel 36:29-30).

15. After the Messiah comes, death will eventually cease (Isaiah 25:8).

16. Eventually the dead will be resurrected (Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Ezekiel 37:12-13; Isaiah 43:5-6).

17. The nations of the earth will help the Jews materially (Isaiah 60:5-6; 60:10-12).

18. The Jews will be sought out for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23).

19. All weapons will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9,12).

20. The Nile will run dry (Isaiah 11:15).

21. Monthly, the trees of Israel will yield their fruit (Ezekiel 47:12).

22. Each tribe of Israel will receive and settle their inherited land (Ezekiel 47:13-13).

23. The nations of the earth will recognize that they have been in error, that the Jews had it right all along, and that the sins of the Gentile nations – their persecutions and the murders they committed – have been borne by the Jewish people (Isaiah 53).

 

[Eliana]

I've just told you, I've no interest in Jewish (or Christian for that matter) tradition,

Well then who in the hell are you to tell me to check Jewish scripture? You think you know more about it then I do?

but the genealogies are the refutation to the portion of your OP relevant. Those genealogies are the same in the Christian scriptures as the Hebrew. They have the same source, the legal documentation of the Messiah kept for ages in the Temple of Jerusalem. The originals are destroyed now. They no longer document anything, so there can't be another messiah. Some other stuff I inquired you to elaborate on, but it's too late for that if it is true that they have no substance or hell has no fury like a poster scorned.

Jews do not accept the Christian bible so it's meaningless to cite it, nor did the Jews keep Christian scriptures in the temple. Jewish people aren't allowed to go into a non-Jewish building of worship, not even to admire the craftmanship of the building. There's no way we'd keep pagan scriptures in our temple. HaShem ordered things like that to be destroyed. The Christian bible wasn't even written in Hebrew, it was written in Greek by non-Jews.

Jesus isn't even in the Jewish bible so how on earth would his genealogy be there? The most recent part of the Tanakh is Daniel written in 200 BCE and if Jesus' genealogy were in there, especially since it includes his decedents AFTER Daniel was written, every Jewish person would be a Christian because that's blatant prophecy.

Insulting me doesn't compel me to answer, especially a question asked in bad faith. I posted a link outlining plainly what Jewish Messianic prophecy is. Every question I see here that is already answered in said link, I ignore. If people can't be bothered to read then I can't be bothered to answer. You also obviously don't know jack squat about Jewish law (halakha) or Jewish traditions.

So here is my answer to some of your ill-informed questions:

Jesus was actually the Son of God and the natural heir to the Kingdom by miraculous birth through the virgin girl Mary, of David's line, and Jesus was also the legal heir in the male line of descent from David and Solomon through his adoptive father Joseph. (Luke 1:32, 35 / Romans 1:1-4) (See here)

I don't give a rat's fat behind what the bible says, because I'm not a Christian. Try and ram that through your skull. I already told you a person does not inherit their adoptive father's tribe. As a matter of fact, if you are born to a Jewish mother and your father is not a Jew you have no tribe at all. That's Jewish law and I don't care if you like it or not.

I need some elaboration on that. Why was the Messiah supposed to have rebuilt the temple and when?

Check the link

Again, elaboration is needed.

No it isn't. Jews weren't scattered at the time... I can't dumb it down further.

He was.

When I say Jewish, I mean a Torah observant Jew, which he certainly wasn't.

Elaboration. Especially regarding when.

Check the link.

Where you are getting this is obviously from Jewish traditional interpretation, so you need to elaborate on all of these points so that it can be seen where it is coming from. Scriptural support rather than traditional interpretation, or at least the support for that interpretation. Otherwise it's just we say they say.

Check the link. Notice a pattern? Jews do not "interpret" the Tanakh. Tanakh interprets Tanakh.

The trinity and human form is apostate Christian theology, not biblically supported. I could argue the original sin point but as far as I can tell it isn't contextually relevant to the Messiah.

I don't care. Non-trinitarian theology is fringe in Christianity but at the end of the day I couldn't care less either way. Christians teach original sin because they promote the idea that just existing is enough reason to go to hell and Jesus needs to "save you". This is contradictory to the Torah.

I agree.

Oh goody, a gnostic Christian. Don't care.

Assume responsibility? What about the blood of bulls? Do you think there is no atonement for sins or just that descendants of Abraham can't sin. What exactly do your tradition think of sin?

That's the nice thing about questions, they take five seconds to ask but can take hours to answer. If you really care look it up. I'm obviously talking about human beings and not animals. *Mod edit* Animal sacrifice also served a purpose in providing food for the Levites, they weren't just killed and thrown away.

Correct. Although I can't imagine why you would write G-d instead of G-d, ________.

Well that's because you're extremely ignorant of Judaism and can't be bothered to look up answers. Jews do not spell any of G-d's names partly out of respect and partly because we aren't allowed to spell them anywhere they are likely to be destroyed or altered. How does that affect your limited imagination?

What does it say? Are Jews still waiting for the Messiah?

Seriously?

For a guy who calls himself a researcher you sure seem not to know much and can't be bothered to look it up. This is not obscure information and can be attained via a simple Google search. *Mod edit*

 

[dybmh]

I invite you to have a private conversation if you like.

Thank you. That is very kind of you. Do you think that would be better than this venue, in public? I think having this conversation in public is better, because, if we can come together on this issue, ending in agreement and reconciliation, the method that we are using to accomplish that outcome is much much more valuable to the reader than the outcome itself.

In this case, My vote? The journey is much more important than the destination if we are successful. I think we can be successful. I feel good about this.

I'll wait to read your reply before commenting on the rest of your post. I'm open to continuing the conversation in whatever manner you think is best. I really liked what you wrote btw. There's a lot there to discuss.

Sincerely,

 

[Brickjectivity]

I've seen this discussed here a bit and there is a lot of misinformation so here are some of the key (but not all) reasons Jews do not believe in Jesus.

The Messiah must be from David's line and from the tribe of Judah, Jesus was not.
The Messiah must rebuild the temple, the temple still stood when Jesus lived.
The Messiah must reunite the Jews, the Jews were not even scattered when Jesus lived.
The Messiah must be Jewish... duh.
The Messiah will establish world peace and rule justly, Jesus did not do this.
The Messiah will rule when the Torah is written in everyone's heart and all people acknowledge Hashem as G-d, Jesus did not do this.

In addition Jews do not accept the notion of a trinity or original sin. We do not believe G-d will assume a human form. Nowhere in Messianic prophecy is the Messiah G-d in human form or otherwise. Jews also do not believe anyone can assume responsibility for the sins of another. G-d also calls human sacrifice an abomination and condemns it in the strongest possible terms. There is nothing in Messianic prophecy about the Messiah dying and coming back at a later date, it says he will finish the job.

There's more, but that's a primer for anyone interested.

I appreciate your OP and willingness to say "This is why" and "This is who I am."

 

[Betho_br]

That's nice. He didn't fulfill the Jewish one which is the subject of my thread.

Lucas 24.21 English Standard Version
But we had hoped that he was ethe one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now fthe third day since these things happened.

Certainly not...

 

[I Am Hugh]

So, naturally, you're driven to pontificate in a thread titled "Why Jews don't believe in Jesus."

No, that wouldn't be natural, that would be stupid. I'm a student of the Bible. I'm not a Jew, I'm not a Christian, I'm not a JW. I would never be one of those things. Modern day Christianity isn't Christ, it's Socrates, Plato and Constantine. Modern day Judaism isn't Abraham or Moses, it's Alexander and the Pharisees. Like Mormonism is John Smith and Taoism is Chuang Tzu. It's religious tradition. I'm not terribly interested or conversant in the traditions of men, only being introduced to them as they are presented to me usually as a contrast to my interests.

 

[I Am Hugh]

Lucas 24.21 English Standard Version
But we had hoped that he was ethe one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now fthe third day since these things happened.

Certainly not...

Why was Israel formed? The nation, its laws?

 

[I Am Hugh]

No, they're not. There is good reason to believe they were added, fraudulently, after the Gospel of Mark was not productive in converting Jews.

Such a good reason you can't wait to not tell me?