Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[Enai de a lukal]

RTS qualifies for the scenarios that would give someone RTS. The link while providing some things that make it "morelikely" give no percetages. In that sense, I dont knwo if more likely is one in ten thousands or one in a houndred or one in ten. Or one in two.

As I, and others, pointed out much earlier in the thread, the prevalence or frequency of the objectionable type of religious education is irrelevant to the question of whether it is appropriate or acceptable. I'm not making any claims about how frequent it is- just that it is not acceptable, however often it occurs.

RTS certainly does not evidence in any way that raising your kids with your religion will be harmful to them.

Will be? No, not necessarily. But it suggests that certain forms of religions, or certain types of religious upbringings, can be harmful in a real and tangible way.

Not any religion nor any religious upbringing.

I've never suggested and in fact have explicitly denied that any and all religious upbringings are harmful. The point is that some are.

 

[Me Myself]

As I, and others, pointed out much earlier in the thread, the prevalence or frequency of the objectionable type of religious education is irrelevant to the question of whether it is appropriate or acceptable. I'm not making any claims about how frequent it is- just that it is not acceptable, however often it occurs.


Will be? No, not necessarily. But it suggests that certain forms of religions, or certain types of religious upbringings, can be harmful in a real and tangible way.


I've never suggested and in fact have explicitly denied that any and all religious upbringings are harmful. The point is that some are.

Anything can be harmful in a real tangible way.

You missed the point.

He question was directed specifically for Magic Man as you can see for the quote because he was saying that telling your kids things like "God loves you" are religious indoctrination.

I was telling him indoctrination is regarded by people in general to be harmful and as such, religious upbringing couldnt be called indoctrination if it wasnt harmful. I couldnt use the merriam webster nor e oxford dictionary definitions because he says they dont work for him.

I dont deny that some ways of raising kids with some beliefs that are religious can be harmful, but that was in no way e extent to which Magic Man was proposing.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I was telling him indoctrination is regarded by people in general to be harmful and as such, religious upbringing couldnt be called indoctrination if it wasnt harmful

That doesn't really follow, I hate to say...

I dont deny that some ways of raising kids with some beliefs that are religious can be harmful, but that was in no way e extent to which Magic Man was proposing.

My bad then, I wasn't following your conversation, I simply took your post at face value (i.e. asking for evidence that religion causes harm, period).

 

[Me Myself]

That doesn't really follow, I hate to say...


My bad then, I wasn't following your conversation, I simply took your post at face value (i.e. asking for evidence that religion causes harm, period).

And I did phrase it wrong, I meant to say religious upbringing cause harm.

To that, I expected evidence not of "it has happened" but something statistical.

Kids have had accidents in sports, that doesnt mean you are a bad parent if you force em to do sports.

I expected statistics.

I still do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What I read there is not in any way the way my parents or my catholic upbringing taught me to believe.

I was talking to Magic Man that said that "God hears you when you pray" or "God loves yous" are religious indoctrination.

I doubt I would find in such artcile anything pointing out those phrases as harmful, would I?

This is just anecdotal, but when my father was dying of cancer, it was hard on everyone in my family. My (religious) wife, though, seemed to struggle with an extra level of difficulty: while we both were very worried for him and hated to see what he was going through, she also seemed to really struggle trying to reconcile her belief that God loves everyone and that God hears her prayers with the suffering and eventual death of a good, kind man when he should have had decades of life ahead of him. She prayed frequently for him, and even had her church give an intention for him in mass, but he still just kept getting worse and worse until he died.

I remember while all this was going on that as bad as it was for me to deal with, at least I didn't have to go through the mental stress of trying to reconcile my Dad's suffering with the idea that a good and loving God is running things.

Some people say that religion can help people cope with traumatic events, but at least in my experience with people around me, it's been more of an obstacle than a help.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And I did phrase it wrong, I meant to say religious upbringing cause harm.

To that, I expected evidence not of "it has happened" but something statistical.

Kids have had accidents in sports, that doesnt mean you are a bad parent if you force em to do sports.

I expected statistics.

I still do.

Here's one:

This study of 15- and 19-year-olds who attended religious schools found that when there was a mismatch between the religious beliefs of the pupil and the teachings of the denomination (i.e. when the religion is being forced on the child), the risk of suicide increased by a factor of 2 to 4.

Do schools differ in suicide risk? the influence of school and neighbourhood on attempted suicide, suicidal ideation and self-harm among secondary school pupils

 

[idav]

Some people say that religion can help people cope with traumatic events, but at least in my experience with people around me, it's been more of an obstacle than a help.

Certainly everyone deals with grief differently but I am interested in the claim that certain beliefs can be a hinderance. Sometimes having hope could help like the idea of ressurrection or rebirth vs the idea of nihilism. I am not sure having a certain belief gets us to to acceptance any quicker, really depends on the individual.

 

[Sentinel]

If teaching a child there is a God is brainwashing, then so is teaching your child that there isn't a God- depending on how you look at it.

*sigh* everyone is initially born atheist the whole perception of God is told to you by another human (usually parent/guardian) which, just simply proves that not teaching your child about God isn't brain washing however, even if you don't know it teaching a child about God is brain washing because, at there stage there extremely vulnerable because, of their lack of knowledge about the world so they get all their information from their parent/guardian as truth because, to them it's the most reliable source of information. The idea of God was created by humans to explain the world as Zeus was and other fictional Gods. But we all have the right to think what we want so believe what you want but don't try and deny fact.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Certainly everyone deals with grief differently but I am interested in the claim that certain beliefs can be a hinderance. Sometimes having hope could help like the idea of ressurrection or rebirth vs the idea of nihilism. I am not sure having a certain belief gets us to to acceptance any quicker, really depends on the individual.

Hey - I never replied to this!

I was thinking mainly of how religious people not only have to get over the tragic event, but also have to reconcile the event with their religious beliefs. Several times now, I've seen religious people struggle to fit the death of a loved one into the idea that God is watching over us and has a divine plan. It was almost like they refused to give themselves permission to get angry at what had happened, since this would show a lack of faith.

Some people do "let go and let God", but pressure to do this when it doesn't come naturally can create stress when a person is already dealing with a crisis, and can stop the person from dealing with the crisis effectively.

 

[kashmir]

Obviously, I didn't read all the pages, but from the first few posts, I am in complete agreement that "brainwashing" is not what is going on.

Of course people like dawkins claims it is brainwashing and child abuse, and many of his followers feel the same way.
If any brainwashing is going on, it's his method of pushing the non believe in God onto people with his arbitrary methods and using that to sell books and create hatred where hatred is not even needed.

I will admit, debating this subject almost lured me right in, almost to the point where I thought that burning all holy books was in the right direction.
That wont happen again, that is for sure.

Just as easy is it is for ancient witch hunters to hunt down "witches" and burn them at the stake, it's just as easy to take that attitude(sort of) towards religious people, if you listen to the bias hate enough.

 

[Nymphs]

Obviously, I didn't read all the pages, but from the first few posts, I am in complete agreement that "brainwashing" is not what is going on.

Of course people like dawkins claims it is brainwashing and child abuse, and many of his followers feel the same way.
If any brainwashing is going on, it's his method of pushing the non believe in God onto people with his arbitrary methods and using that to sell books and create hatred where hatred is not even needed.

I will admit, debating this subject almost lured me right in, almost to the point where I thought that burning all holy books was in the right direction.
That wont happen again, that is for sure.

Just as easy is it is for ancient witch hunters to hunt down "witches" and burn them at the stake, it's just as easy to take that attitude(sort of) towards religious people, if you listen to the bias hate enough.

Brainwashing Definition:

forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas

persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship

How is indoctrinating your children into religion not brainwashing?

 

[Desert Snake]

Nope, not brainwashing. Rather, doing the right thing.
It provides, morality, balance, and they won't be out there
saying 'Whats my religion?!"'

 

[Nymphs]

Nope, not brainwashing. Rather, doing the right thing.
It provides, morality, balance, and they won't be out there
saying 'Whats my religion?!"'

So you say that atheists don't have morality and balance?

 

[Desert Snake]

So you say that atheists don't have morality and balance?

Where is it more likely to find morality? That's right. Religion.

 

[Nymphs]

Where is it more likely to find morality? That's right. Religion.

Wrong.

As the following link says (link):

The idea that atheists have no reason to be moral without a god or religion may be the most popular and repeated myth about atheism. It comes up in many forms and all are based on the assumption that the only valid source of morality is a theistic religion, preferably the religion of the speaker which is usually Christianity. Thus without Christianity, people cannot live moral lives. This is supposed to be a reason reject atheism and convert to Christianity but the argument fails because contrary to the beliefs of theists, their god and their religion are not needed for morality.

Religion does not have exclusive rights on morality.

:sorry1: NOT :sorry1:

 

[kashmir]

Nope, not brainwashing. Rather, doing the right thing.
It provides, morality, balance, and they won't be out there
saying 'Whats my religion?!"'

ironically, I can say "whats my religion" because it's true.
I think that may just inspire a new song..haven't did that for a long time..
"time to break out the guitar"
If I do it, you want me to pm you the link when I upload it to YT?
I am already hearing the words as I am typing this.

 

[Desert Snake]

Wrong.

As the following link says (link):



Religion does not have exclusive rights on morality.

:sorry1: NOT :sorry1:

What's with the focus on Christianity? Is atheism only opposed to Christianity.
Besides, that is just some opinion, whatever.
With religion , you don't have to GUESS about morality, it's ALREADY CODIFIED
for you to follow. That's a pretty big advantage, sorry.

 

[Nymphs]

What's with the focus on Christianity? Is atheism only opposed to Christianity. [/B]

I never said a thing about Christianity? Why do you assume I'm speaking about that?

With religion , you don't have to GUESS about morality, it's ALREADY CODIFIED

You don't with atheism, either.

That's a pretty big advantage, sorry.

You have no advantage...at all.

 

[Riverwolf]

What's with the focus on Christianity? Is atheism only opposed to Christianity.
Besides, that is just some opinion, whatever.
With religion , you don't have to GUESS about morality, it's ALREADY CODIFIED
for you to follow. That's a pretty big advantage, sorry.

It might be codified, but there's plenty of room for questioning its validity.

I follow a religion: a modern variant of my ancestral religion. I'm pretty sure you don't want me following ALL the morality codes of those people.

 

[Desert Snake]

ironically, I can say "whats my religion" because it's true.
I think that may just inspire a new song..haven't did that for a long time..
"time to break out the guitar"
If I do it, you want me to pm you the link when I upload it to YT?
I am already hearing the words as I am typing this.

Haha,,,