Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[Desert Snake]

It might be codified, but there's plenty of room for questioning its validity.

I follow a religion: a modern variant of my ancestral religion. I'm pretty sure you don't want me following ALL the morality codes of those people.

........... you're agreeing with me.

 

[Desert Snake]

I never said a thing about Christianity? Why do you assume I'm speaking about that?

The link referred to Christianity. I'm not going to 'assume' anything else.

You don't with atheism, either.

Oh yeah. You do.

You have no advantage...at all.

Sorry. I have HUGE advantage.
It's called the BIBLE.
And RELIGION.

 

[Nymphs]

The link referred to Christianity. I'm not going to 'assume' anything else.

Don't assume I believe or feel everything the link says. I was giving an example that refutes your claims about religion have an exclusivity on religion.

Sorry. I have HUGE advantage.

And that is?

It's called the BIBLE.

You call a book that is 2000+ years old a an advantage? You mean the same Bible that advocates killing, rape, slavery, misogyny and homophobia? Yeah, that doesn't seem like much of an advantage to me.

And RELIGION.

Did you even read the link? Religion has nothing to do with morality. :sarcastic

 

[Desert Snake]

Don't assume I believe or feel everything the link says. I was giving an example that refutes your claims about religion have an exclusivity on religion.

See, so why provide links if you don't fully endorse everything they state...what am I , a mind reader? How would I know what you agree with or not?!

You mean the same Bible that advocates killing, rape, slavery, misogyny and homophobia? Yeah, that doesn't seem like much of an advantage to me.

Have you heard of the New Testament? It's the 'New Covenant'. We aren't beholden to those old laws. Jesua issued in the New Covenant.

Did you even read the link? Religion has nothing to do with morality. :sarcastic

Again, I don't argue links...it isn't even possible. I expect the other debater to have enough of a grasp on their argument to just debate mainly with refs or from what they know ,can reasonably present as an argument.

 

[Riverwolf]

........... you're agreeing with me.

Hardly. Whatever "ethics" are contained in the Old Way are things I was following, anyway. Woden called me; that's why I now follow.

There is no need for religion to have a morality code. Ethics can be calculated: that is good which causes the most amount of happiness for the least amount of unhappiness. Short-term happiness for long-term unhappiness is not good; short-term unhappiness for long-term happiness is good. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

It's called the BIBLE.

A compilation of East Mediterranean literature and some random dude's formal and personal letters complaining about the world. Hardly a compelling advantage.

For the record, the Old Way has no Sacred Book.

 

[Nymphs]

See, so why provide links if you don't fully endorse everything they state...

Serious? To provide examples. You certainly don't agree with everything you read, do you?

what am I , a mind reader? How would I know what you agree with or not?!

No. But like a normal person, I expect you to ask questions if you are confused.

Have you heard of the New Testament? It's the 'New Covenant'. We aren't beholden to those old laws. Jesua issued in the New Covenant.

You want to talk about the New Testament?

I'll just give you examples from Matthew

Jesus says that divorce is permissible when the wife is guilty of fornication. But what if the husband is unfaithful? Jesus doesn't seem to care about that. 5:32, 19:9

Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward. 19:29

Link here

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

Link here

And those are just a few. For a full list, check out this link:

Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Book of Mormon

Again, I don't argue links...it isn't even possible. I expect the other debater to have enough of a grasp on their argument to just debate mainly with refs or from what they know ,can reasonably present as an argument.[/COLOR][/B]

I have a full argument, I was simply providing a source that speaks it much better than I do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Brainwashing Definition:

forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas

persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship

How is indoctrinating your children into religion not brainwashing?

It's not brainwashing if there are no pre-existing beliefs you're forcing them to give up. Also, different religious traditions (and different religious parents) vary in how "forcible" the indoctrination is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What's with the focus on Christianity? Is atheism only opposed to Christianity.
Besides, that is just some opinion, whatever.
With religion , you don't have to GUESS about morality, it's ALREADY CODIFIED
for you to follow. That's a pretty big advantage, sorry.

If that was true, Christians would still support slavery and killing heretics. Luckily, most religious people consider the teachings of their religions more critically than you do... which also means you're wrong.

 

[Mister Emu]

How is indoctrinating your children into religion not brainwashing?

Because it doesn't meet the definition...

You aren't forcing the child to give up any pre-existing beliefs...

edit: Should have read through, would have seen 9-10ths got it...

 

[Nymphs]

It's not brainwashing if there are no pre-existing beliefs you're forcing them to give up. Also, different religious traditions (and different religious parents) vary in how "forcible" the indoctrination is.

So, if the child had no 'beliefs' and the parent raised them into a cult, you don't consider that brainwashing?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, if the child had no 'beliefs' and the parent raised them into a cult, you don't consider that brainwashing?

It depends whether it included quashing any independent beliefs that the child developed on his own.

Note: please keep in mind that this is a separate question from whether I think this kind of behaviour is moral or ethical.

 

[Nymphs]

It depends whether it included quashing any independent beliefs that the child developed on his own.

Note: please keep in mind that this is a separate question from whether I think this kind of behaviour is moral or ethical.

What if the child hadn't developed any independent beliefs. Let's say these children were raised from birth in this particular faith/cult?

 

[Riverwolf]

What if the child hadn't developed any independent beliefs. Let's say these children were raised from birth in this particular faith/cult?

Then it's not brainwashing.

It's still unethical, though.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What if the child hadn't developed any independent beliefs. Let's say these children were raised from birth in this particular faith/cult?

I'm not really sure how this matters. I strongly disagree with the practice, so do you really care about the semantic question of whether it meets the strict definition of "brainwashing"?

 

[Nakosis]

Doesn't matter. Parents have he right to raise their children as they see fit as long as they aren't breaking any laws while doing so.

Obviously people people raise their children the best way they know how. Not sure anyone else is in a position to say otherwise.

In the US freedom of religion is a legal right. To suggest parents should not be able to raise their children with their religious beliefs is criminal.

People have freedom of religion as long as they are not breaking any laws.

 

[Maldini]

I think parents must definitely teach their kids about some moral issues, but you don't need religion to do that, you have way better ways of doing it.

As someone who was raised based on both religious values and values my parents though I need to know about, I can tell you religious values only work because of the fear it puts in one's heart.

I would easily hate to end up in hell, and I was always afraid that God may not love me so I always tried to be on my best behavior, so I was not being nice for the sake of being a good human being, I was nice so I wouldn't be punished by God.

Kids's brains may not be ready for serious conversations on morals, but they experience feelings and emotions with more force than adults. When they are happy, they are the kings of the world, and when they're sad, they feel like the unluckiest thing on earth.

I don't have kids, but if I someday do, I'm gonna talk to them about right and wrong, I'd tell them to be themselves all the time, but also to be aware of what impacts their action will have on others, and try to not hurt other people.

You could easily ask kids to not hurt other people by telling them that it makes people sad when you do that. Kids don't want anyone to be sad. Just work on their feelings, emotions and instincts. That's what kids need, not teachings about an unseen deity who nobody knows and every person has his/her own idea of.

Kids usually become a lot like their parents, even if they end up in a very different place in life, their instinctual reaction to everything they face will be what they have seen their parents do, not the things their parents have told them. That's why I think telling your kids anything wouldn't be that useful, let alone religion. Kids watch and learn, they don't listen and learn.

 

[Nymphs]

I'm not really sure how this matters. I strongly disagree with the practice, so do you really care about the semantic question of whether it meets the strict definition of "brainwashing"?

I do.

Like I've stated before, I'm curious to see why people feel the way they do -- that's why I ask so many questions.

 

[kashmir]

Doesn't matter. Parents have he right to raise their children as they see fit as long as they aren't breaking any laws while doing so.

Obviously people people raise their children the best way they know how. Not sure anyone else is in a position to say otherwise.

In the US freedom of religion is a legal right. To suggest parents should not be able to raise their children with their religious beliefs is criminal.

People have freedom of religion as long as they are not breaking any laws.

Around here, that doesn't matter, bait and switch terrorists into the mix, a whole argument is created

/end sarcasm

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I do.

Like I've stated before, I'm curious to see why people feel the way they do -- that's why I ask so many questions.

I think even a child that was never exposed to the outside world would come up with ideas of his/her own, so the term "brainwashing" may apply in those sorts of cases, yes.

 

[Desert Snake]

If that was true, Christians would still support slavery and killing heretics. Luckily, most religious people consider the teachings of their religions more critically than you do... which also means you're wrong.

This is nonsense.