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Why pray?

Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
metis said:
Gandhi had an interesting take on prayer that very much influenced me and led me into "rooms" I never could have imagined. He said that prayer is not for God but for us, so instead of us saying whatever, we should "listen" to what He says, namely through feelings that we either should or shouldn't do something. However, before we act on what we feel, we need to make absolutely certain that it is morally sound first, and if it is, then we should act on it and not find excuses not to.

The above is the single best of theological advice I had ever received from anyone, and I wish I had the time, and you reading it had the interest, to tell you where this all took me over the last three decades.
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I think that is quite scriptural in a NT perspective.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
KenS said:
I think that is quite scriptural in a NT perspective.
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And Jewish. When the prophets and others went often for many days in the wilderness, what did they do-- just play with their navels? ;)

The unfortunate reality, imo, is that we went overboard with prayers of supplication and forgot prayers of meditation, and most Christians followed suit. We became great talkers but lousy listeners.
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
metis said:
And Jewish. When the prophets and others went often for many days in the wilderness, what did they do-- just play with their navels? ;)

The unfortunate reality, imo, is that we went overboard with prayers of supplication and forgot prayers of meditation, and most Christians followed suit. We became great talkers but lousy listeners.
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Preach it, brother! Can I say "OUCH" too? :oops:
 
lovemuffin

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
9-10ths_Penguin said:
How do you reconcile this with Jesus in the Gospels telling his disciples to ask God for what they need?
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Reportedly, the same Jesus told them that the Father knows what they need before they ask, even in the same sermon in the same gospel where he also said to ask (Matthew 6 and 7, although obviously not the only gospel where asking for things is encouraged).

So it seems like however we make sense of it, it would presumably require a somewhat more nuanced understanding in order not to be immediately self-contradictory. Given that Matthew 7 (ask and you will receive) follows Matthew 6 ("he knows what you need before you ask"; and also "seek first the kingdom of God"), and the general model of the Lord's Prayer, it seems reasonable to see it in context of, when asking "thy kingdom come", it being as much about a practice that is beneficial to the one praying, who is attempting to participate in that kingdom, as a completely literal expectation of requesting things and receiving them.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
KenS said:
I'm serious... what does the dinosaur comic strip have to do with asking God for what they need?
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Are you talking about my signature? It (like everyone's signature, if they choose to use one) shows up at the bottom of every post I make.
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
well named said:
Reportedly, the same Jesus told them that the Father knows what they need before they ask, even in the same sermon in the same gospel where he also said to ask (Matthew 6 and 7, although obviously not the only gospel where asking for things is encouraged).

So it seems like however we make sense of it, it would presumably require a somewhat more nuanced understanding in order not to be immediately self-contradictory. Given that Matthew 7 (ask and you will receive) follows Matthew 6 ("he knows what you need before you ask"; and also "seek first the kingdom of God"), and the general model of the Lord's Prayer, it seems reasonable to see it in context of, when asking "thy kingdom come", it being as much about a practice that is beneficial to the one praying, who is attempting to participate in that kingdom, as a completely literal expectation of requesting things and receiving them.
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I really am lost. Your explanation is quite good, but how that relates to the cartoon of Penguin... just not sure how it relates. I must need a cup of coffee.
 
lovemuffin

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
Ken: I don't see a cartoon, I see a post that I quoted that says: "How do you reconcile this with Jesus in the Gospels telling his disciples to ask God for what they need?"

Some kind of forum glitch? To be honest a bug that replaces random posts with dinosaur comics sounds totally sweet.

edit: ah, I probably have signatures disabled
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
well named said:
Ken: I don't see a cartoon, I see a post that I quoted that says: "How do you reconcile this with Jesus in the Gospels telling his disciples to ask God for what they need?"

Some kind of forum glitch? To be honest a bug that replaces random posts with dinosaur comics sounds totally sweet.

edit: ah, I probably have signatures disabled
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If you're using the mobile version of the site, it has a simpler interface without certain things (e.g. signatures, post numbers). I don't think everyone realizes.
 
ChristineES

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Gambit said:
I see no need to petition God. I simply trust that God is working everything out for a greater good and leave it at that. The key is faith.
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We who "petitition", as you put it, are not lacking in faith in God, yet showing faith in God. I don't really see it as petitioning, really. We don't really demand God of anything, but His will be done (as I always say).
 
viole

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Gambit said:
I see no need to petition God. I simply trust that God is working everything out for a greater good and leave it at that. The key is faith.
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Well, I agree.

However, this is a dangerous position. If God really works for the greater good, then it is logically impossible to experience events that lessen this greater good, if this good is maximal.

If I pick a gun and shoot the first child I see, insensitive to her prayers, and my shot actually kills that child, I can safely assume that my success in killing that child went in the direction of reaching that maximal good or, at worst, keeping it constant.

In other words, evil would not exist.

Ciao

- viole
 
Gambit

Gambit

Well-Known Member
viole said:
Well, I agree.

However, this is a dangerous position. If God really works for the greater good, then it is logically impossible to experience events that lessen this greater good, if this good is maximal.

If I pick a gun and shoot the first child I see, insensitive to her prayers, and my shot actually kills that child, I can safely assume that my success in killing that child went in the direction of reaching that maximal good or, at worst, keeping it constant.

In other words, evil would not exist.
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Evil doesn't exist. What we call evil is actually the privation of good.
 
Gambit

Gambit

Well-Known Member
ChristineES said:
We who "petitition", as you put it, are not lacking in faith in God, yet showing faith in God. I don't really see it as petitioning, really. We don't really demand God of anything, but His will be done (as I always say).
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Why do you have to petition that God's will be accomplished? Do you not believe God has the capacity to fulfill his will?
 
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