Why The Hate For Brexit Voters?

[Altfish]

I did find it funny watching Corbyn very badly pretending he wasn’t in favour of Brexit.

A good reminder that there have always been anti-EU elements on the left too.

Very much so, many Unions supported Brexit too, Mick Lynch the RMT leader was a supporter.

At a time when Remain needed a powerful pro Remain Labour leader, we got Corbyn.

 

[HonestJoe]

It was a typical shorthand for I voted for Labour.

I know, I'm saying that it shouldn't be typical because it distracts from the local concerns you (correctly) identified as important. Be honest now, could you name the actual candidate you voted for in the last general election without looking it up (you don't have to tell us who, just whether you know the name off the top of your head)?

Even saying you voted for a party isn't much better. After all, someone who does live in Islington and voted for "Labour" in the last general election doesn't have a Labour MP any more. And someone who voted for "Labour" in Rochdale in the recent by-election was never going to get a Labour MP regardless of the result.

 

[Rival]

I know, I'm saying that it shouldn't be typical because it distracts from the local concerns you (correctly) identified as important. Be honest now, could you name the actual candidate you voted for in the last general election without looking it up (you don't have to tell us who, just whether you know the name off the top of your head)?

Even saying you voted for a party isn't much better. After all, someone who does live in Islington and voted for "Labour" in the last general election doesn't have a Labour MP any more. And someone who voted for "Labour" in Rochdale in the recent by-election was never going to get a Labour MP regardless of the result.

No, I don't.

And regardless, I live in Kent now anyway, so it's not much matter. I'm not voting in this election as I find it so shocking.

 

[Augustus]

I aim to be biased towards reality. For what that is worth.

Then you are failing very badly indeed.

Being so poorly informed and intellectually incurious you confuse subjective value preferences for objective reality and looking down on others who don’t share your delusions is the hallmark of the religious fundamentalist.

As someone who aims to be biased towards reality, that is not good company to keep.

*Cheap imported labour is suppressing my earning power*

“Haha! Shut up fool you are objectively wrong to value your pay packet over a generic commitment to globalism! You are biased against reality and are also racist. You should be smart and morally superior like me!”

Later:

“Hmm why do these stupid idiots want to vote against my stated political aims? It’s a mystery.”

 

[LuisDantas]

We are done here, @Augustus. Your premises are a non-tarter.

Best of luck.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why is there a suggestion that anyone who voted for Brexit was misled?

I wouldn't phrase it that way.
What I would say is that the pro-brexit campaign was misleading. It included plenty of lies and misleading information.

So brexit voters that voted the way they did as a direct result of that campaign were, in fact, misled. Yes.

Those who voted for Trump are misled?

Same as above. The campaign to get voters to vote for him included a lot of lies and misleading information.
So again, voters that voted for him as a direct result of that, were in fact also misled.

As if we had sense we'd vote for the 'right' thing.

As if there's a side that votes dumbly and tends to be rural, conservative and traditional and there's a side that votes sensibly and they are urban, liberal and progressive. It's bull****.

I wouldn't say that either.

What I will say, is that if these campaigns were not so deliberately misleading and full of lies, the trump presidency and brexit would have never happened.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Do you understand that most people who voted for Brexit would have voted for it based on reasons landed on decades prior to the vote?

Everyone in my family was one of those. We were talking about leaving the EU when I was a child. Once given the vote we voted for what we have wanted for years.

The fact the the circles you evidently move in were likely not having those conversations is a problem for you.

Your anecdote is not representative of the whole.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

We did not vote based on what politicians said.

You perhaps didn't.
Many people did.

 

[Augustus]

What I will say, is that if these campaigns were not so deliberately misleading and full of lies, the trump presidency and brexit would have never happened

That sort of assumes people are making (purportedly) rational evidence based decisions by considering what they perceive to be the facts (even if they are mistaken).

This is absolutely not how most people choose who or what to vote for in elections.

I’m still convinced that the Remain campaign (and its supporters) did far more to encourage people to vote for Brexit than the Leave campaign did. Might as well have started bussing them to the polls.

 

[Augustus]

Your premises are a non-tarter.

A Cossack perhaps?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Please drop this crap.

We did not vote based on what politicians said.

I certainly didn't. Everyone in my family who voted Brexit hated Boris Johnson.

I don't even know why I have to explain this.

We strongly distrust large government, why would we have voted based on what politicians, who have a habit of lying, said?

Here is a better articulation Why did people vote for Brexit? Deep-seated grievances lie behind this vote

People in smaller, rural areas felt disenfranchised by globalism, that's basically it.

Whatever the reasons as to why people voted for Brexit, the vote was so close as to not really being proper to act upon in my view, given that it would affect the young more and who would not have had a vote then.

My reasons for voting to remain - just silly not to have produce from the nearest countries rather than getting such from far away (global warming considerations); the UK needs to be in Europe economically as well as politically rather than being an outsider - given we do or did have much influence; the lessening of borders as to work was beneficial to the UK in both directions; EU scientific projects were as much beneficial to us when we shared such rather than us having to do such things on our own; the simplicity of not having border controls enabled travel to be easier and more pleasurable; common standards were just a sensible consideration, as it was in having common laws; reciprocal health care agreements; and probably several more. So overall, for the benefits of the whole country as I saw such - as I tend to vote politically - so never right-wing parties.

That sort of assumes people are making (purportedly) rational evidence based decisions by considering what they perceive to be the facts (even if they are mistaken).

This is absolutely not how most people choose who or what to vote for in elections.

I’m still convinced that the Remain campaign (and its supporters) did far more to encourage people to vote for Brexit than the Leave campaign did. Might as well have started bussing them to the polls.

Not what I saw from the more informed 'experts' at the time, and it seems that people just didn't listen to their warnings.

 

[Rival]

Whatever the reasons as to why people voted for Brexit, the vote was so close as to not really being proper to act upon in my view, given that it would affect the young more and who would not have had a vote then.

When I voted I was 21.

My reasons for voting to remain - just silly not to have produce from the nearest countries rather than getting such from far away (global warming considerations); the UK needs to be in Europe economically as well as politically rather than being an outsider - given we do or did have much influence; the lessening of borders as to work was beneficial to the UK in both directions; EU scientific projects were as much beneficial to us when we shared such rather than us having to do such things on our own; the simplicity of not having border controls enabled travel to be easier and more pleasurable; common standards were just a sensible consideration, as it was in having common laws; and probably several more. So overall, for the benefits of the whole country as I saw such - as I tend to vote politically - so never right-wing parties.

I think you must be in a different class, then.

We prefer closed borders to stop low-skilled immigrants and would have preferred only highly-skilled immigrants, to stop what @Augustus rightly noted as low-skilled workers dropping the pay for everyone. They help keep prices unreasonably low and hurt British business. From the Remainer side it just seemed to be 'But I want to be able to go to Majorca!' I mean, congrats that you obviously have the money to do that in the first place, but also you can still go on foreign holidays exactly the same. I didn't see the issue. There was also the issue of Eastern European migrants sending money back home and taking it out of the UK economy.

We can develop our own projects. It seems some of the Remainers see the UK as so damn weak it can't finance or do anything itself. This is a load of nonsense; we have lots of money to do those things. I also don't see why we need to be in a union to have joint projects with other countries when we could do that anyway.

Nor do we need a union for common laws.

The UK is not an outsider; that seems to be a mental concept harboured by the very idea of a Europe united by the EU and somehow separate without it. We're still a shared landmass or accessible by boat; we're still Europeans, literally nothing has changed on that front.

Leavers just would like an explanation of Remain that isn't 'but muh foreign holidays and fancy foods', which is what it's often sounding like - a preference for the Continent over British interests.

 

[Secret Chief]

Whatever the reasons as to why people voted for Brexit, the vote was so close as to not really being proper to act upon in my view, given that it would affect the young more and who would not have had a vote then.

My reasons for voting to remain - just silly not to have produce from the nearest countries rather than getting such from far away (global warming considerations); the UK needs to be in Europe economically as well as politically rather than being an outsider - given we do or did have much influence; the lessening of borders as to work was beneficial to the UK in both directions; EU scientific projects were as much beneficial to us when we shared such rather than us having to do such things on our own; the simplicity of not having border controls enabled travel to be easier and more pleasurable; common standards were just a sensible consideration, as it was in having common laws; and probably several more. So overall, for the benefits of the whole country as I saw such - as I tend to vote politically - so never right-wing parties.

Not what I saw from the more informed 'experts' at the time, and it seems that people just didn't listen to their warnings.

Yes, a simple majority ruling on the biggest issue since WW2 was beyond reckless. But hey, Bozo was happy.

 

[Secret Chief]

Leavers just would like an explanation of Remain that isn't 'but muh foreign holidays and fancy foods', which is what it's often sounding like - a preference for the Continent over British interests

You jest. Leavers dismissed all of the economic dangers highlighted by the experts (those annoying people that we've had enough of, according to Michael Gove - remember?) as "Project Fear" - or did you miss that?
As to holidays and food, if you want to be flippant, I would have thought it was more the gammons being worried over not being able to get their pie n chips in Majorca.

 

[wellwisher]

Why is there a suggestion that anyone who voted for Brexit was misled?

Those who voted for Trump are misled?

As if we had sense we'd vote for the 'right' thing.

As if there's a side that votes dumbly and tends to be rural, conservative and traditional and there's a side that votes sensibly and they are urban, liberal and progressive. It's bull****.

@Augustus

It has to do with irrational overcompensation, which is a type of self sell connected to unconscious projection.

If we compare, Old Britain before EU, for example, it had been a world empire; recipe for success, that spanned centuries. The new sales pitch was based on wishful thinking and utopia fantasy. However it was very thin in terms of objective test proven data. Europe had never been all connected like one happy family so there would be bugs. What is new and unique is still a work in progress. You can see why all the fanatical overcompensation was needed; sell it to themselves, since too much common sense would raise a yellow flag and suggest maybe we need a pilot test before the grand opening, lees we all regress.

Trump's vision was treated the same. Trump was seeking; MAGA, something similar to a Windows System Restore; restore America back to the America, when it was at the top of its game; domestically and internationally. The golden generation had a recipe for success; God, family and international duty to help the side of good. We even rebuilt enemies after the wars.

The political left, decided this test proven data was not ideal. Instead they wanted a not yet ready fro prime time, but is still experimenting with various nonsense, like open borders, soft on crime, paying people to stay home on alcohol and drugs, allowing homelessness in the city streets of once iconic cities, etc., while selling this as the advanced future, that anyone; or just people, with a pea brain, can see.

The entire implementation is similar to the their vision of an electric car future. It did not began with fair completion, but with rigging the deck, while not thinking all the logistics and problems through, leaving big gaps in the future, while messing up the test proven. We may need to apply the principles of science and require peer review. require review of the Liberal minimal test data, before any new bonehead scheme are allowed. This will help them get the job done properly, on paper, before they screw up what already works and also also fall short. Our patients for this are getting thin. Or we can add extra taxes to the those who self sell to pay off their blunders.

If Biden has not just forced electric cars with bribes; rebates, and then sabotage fossil fuels with regulations, but had discussed how to make this a viable free market offering, they would have had the logistics of charging stations planned and placed in advance. The knuckleheads think force and overcompensation sales tactics will work just as well, as cooperative brain storming with practical people, that does not seek to destroy what works, even before the new is ready for prime time, causing deep social problems such as inflation and stagnation.

Brexit does not wish to be led by the knuckleheads with thin test data. While Trump sees the need to get rid of the knucklehead changes and go back to his system restore, to a time when the social machine was humming on all cylinders. This may need to either get the knuckleheads to vow to improve and cooperate or become discharged from the table and charged with seditious conspiracy to harm America.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That sort of assumes people are making (purportedly) rational evidence based decisions by considering what they perceive to be the facts (even if they are mistaken).

No. It assumes a significant amount of people are influenced by propaganda, media, people they follow, perceived authorites....
And that is factually the case which is what the entire advertisement world is based on and why companies spend millions and billions on such.

And considering how close the margins were in both these voting events, I think it is very safe to say that neither would have gone the way they did if it wasn't for those absolutely massive campaigns.

I’m still convinced that the Remain campaign (and its supporters) did far more to encourage people to vote for Brexit than the Leave campaign did. Might as well have started bussing them to the polls.

The difference is that they didn't use, what I would call, unethical tactics taken straight from psychological warfare playbooks.

The campaign of remainers tried to use reason and walked the classic pathways.
The campaign of brexit (and trump) preyed on emotion and used psychological profiling with targetted social media processes.

You could say that remainers tried to "convince" people while the brexit campaign was more about "manipulation".
The latter works better in an age where people's eyes are fixated on their smartphone and tablet screens scrolling instagram, facebook, twitter, tiktok,...

Manipulating public opinion has never been easier then today "thanks" to such technology.

 

[blü 2]

Do you understand that most people who voted for Brexit would have voted for it based on reasons landed on decades prior to the vote?

Dreams of empire again?

It's interesting to recall that the cities voted for Europe and the less economically prosperous parts of, in particular, England voted for Brexit.

I think that's because people like Boris Johnson and Nigel Farrago fed a great deal of what I'll politely call lies, like the "cost to the UK" of being in Europe, which took no account either of how much of that money was distributed back to the UK or how much was saved by not having customs barriers with Europe.

But indeed there was an audience who heard their promise of a new economic paradise no further away than the polling booth.

And do I recall correctly that once the vote was successful, Farrago took out dual citizenship with, I think, France, and owns or owned a house there?

 

[Rival]

Dreams of empire again?

It's interesting to recall that the cities voted for Europe and the less economically prosperous parts of, in particular, England voted for Brexit.

I think that's because people like Boris Johnson and Nigel Farrago fed a great deal of what I'll politely call lies, like the "cost to the UK" of being in Europe, which took no account either of how much of that money was distributed back to the UK or how much was saved by not having customs barriers with Europe.

But indeed there was an audience who heard their promise of a new economic paradise no further away than the polling booth.

And do I recall correctly that once the vote was successful, Farrago took out dual citizenship with, I think, France, and owns or owned a house there?

It's alright telling Brexit voters about all that money that came back from the EU that we never saw a penny of and only ever found ourselves poorer.

This is why looking at mere stats and data is not helpful for on the ground realities.

We didn't dream of the British Empire, we dreamed of being able to pay for stuff because we had jobs with wages that weren't artificially lowered by low-income immigration.

 

[Rival]

It's really fun having people who didn't vote Leave telling me, a Leaver surrounded by other Leavers, why we voted Leave.

Please keep doing that, it's not insulting at all.

And then you wonder why we voted Leave.

 

[Secret Chief]

Dreams of empire again?

It's interesting to recall that the cities voted for Europe and the less economically prosperous parts of, in particular, England voted for Brexit.

I think that's because people like Boris Johnson and Nigel Farrago fed a great deal of what I'll politely call lies, like the "cost to the UK" of being in Europe, which took no account either of how much of that money was distributed back to the UK or how much was saved by not having customs barriers with Europe.

But indeed there was an audience who heard their promise of a new economic paradise no further away than the polling booth.

And do I recall correctly that once the vote was successful, Farrago took out dual citizenship with, I think, France, and owns or owned a house there?

And Nigel Lawson was busy applying for permanent French residency.