Why The Hate For Brexit Voters?

[Secret Chief]

It's really fun having people who didn't vote Leave telling me, a Leaver surrounded by other Leavers, why we voted Leave.

Please keep doing that, it's not insulting at all.

And then you wonder why we voted Leave.

Like you're telling Remain voters that the reason for their vote was holidays in Majorca and fancy foods? Hypocrisy much?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's really fun having people who didn't vote Leave telling me, a Leaver surrounded by other Leavers, why we voted Leave.

Please keep doing that, it's not insulting at all.

And then you wonder why we voted Leave.

While I didn't read the whole thread... did anyone in this thread actually tell you why you voted to leave?

 

[Rival]

While I didn't read the whole thread... did anyone in this thread actually tell you why you voted to leave?

Writing why Leavers voted the way they did includes me, so yes, they're lumping me into that bracket.

Either that or it's 'Well you maybe didn't...' as though I'm some kind of one off, which just isn't true.

It shows a very broad lack of understanding as to why anyone actually voted Leave, which many on the Remain side seems to think was all based on certain politicians' words and advertisements.

Many people on either side didn't seem to have voted purely based on this as votes tend to be complicated by way, way more complex factors such as location, job, history, ideology, religion and so on. Narrowing it down to 'Leavers listened to lying Johnson' or 'Remainers listened to the lying EU' is just not helpful here when it comes to the complex emotional and ideological reasons why people tend to vote at all.

I'm finding some sentiments quite reductionist.

I'm not anti-Remain. I don't think Remain are idiots or liars or any other thing. I think they had good, honest reasons to vote the way they did. I just wish that courtesy were offered to Leavers, but this thread does not seem to demonstrate that.

 

[blü 2]

It's alright telling Brexit voters about all that money that came back from the EU that we never saw a penny of and only ever found ourselves poorer.

This is why looking at mere stats and data is not helpful for on the ground realities.

We didn't dream of the British Empire, we dreamed of being able to pay for stuff because we had jobs with wages that weren't artificially lowered by low-income immigration.

I'm quite sure that a lot of people were genuinely wishing to not be Europe again, for reasons that they'd considered carefully. And I acknowledge that Covid made things worse for everyone, the UK included.

But I'm also quite sure that most voters vote on feel rather than careful consideration in the event, and that's where all the lies and empty promises and demagoguery came into it.

And it doesn't look many Brexiters cared much what would happen to Northern Ireland ─ though after many years and outright truthless nonsense from Boris, a solution acceptable to both sides may be evolving.

It looks highly likely that a change of government is as far away as the next poll later this year, and the people who brought you Boris and Liz Truss and the rest will be out of power. About time the UK had some luck.

I think that, and political logic generally, point to the UK in due course making a far greater accommodation with the EU than at present ─ not as cosy as Norway, perhaps, but with more accommodation with EU rules because of the economic benefits of access to EU markets.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Who is cutting healthcare funding?

I think I misunderstood the point you were making.

Looks like Brexit has resulted in a ~£28 billion/y hit to the national budget, but this is being addressed through cuts to other areas and tax increases.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm not anti-Remain. I don't think Remain are idiots or liars or any other thing. I think they had good, honest reasons to vote the way they did. I just wish that courtesy were offered to Leavers, but this thread does not seem to demonstrate that.

I get why you wouldn't want to get grief for your views or voting record, but I think it's reasonable for someone to think that Brexit has harmed the UK significantly and that those who voted to leave are largely responsible.

If you're going to argue that having "good, honest reasons" for a position is enough to warrant a measure of respect for that position, well... that knife cuts both ways. People also have good, honest reasons to believe that the Brexiters acted foolishly.

 

[Rival]

I get why you wouldn't want to get grief for your views or voting record, but I think it's reasonable for someone to think that Brexit has harmed the UK significantly and that those who voted to leave are largely responsible.

If you're going to argue that having "good, honest reasons" for a position is enough to warrant a measure of respect for that position, well... that knife cuts both ways. People also have good, honest reasons to believe that the Brexiters acted foolishly.

Yes, that's fine.

My issue is with how disrespectful it's been.

Essentially a lot of it seems to come down to 'Leavers were stupid idiots brainwashed by Farage,' which lowers the tone tone of the discussion so significantly that no good can come of it, instead of asking well-intentioned, meaningful probing questions to both sides with genuine interest, instead of 'You messed my country up!' which is not going to lead to any kind of fruitful discussion at all.

This coupled with what I said in my OP that there does tend to be a group of people who are seen as backwards and just not with the programme, whom many folks aren't even really trying to understand.

It often reads to me as one side understands the other, but the other doesn't understand the one, due to a belief in 'being on the right side'. It's giving me damnable grief, I'll tell you

 

[Revoltingest]

I aim to be biased towards reality. For what that is worth.

Everyone believes that.
But most know better than to
claim it as an appeal to authority.

 

[Yerda]

Support to leave the EU skyrocketed in tandem with a nationwide media meltdown over immigration. Then it reduced when the media started to find other things to complain about (...them bloody leave-blockers on the loony left...). Polling shows that people largely would have voted to stay had they understood what they were voting for (by about 2:1 in most polls). A lot of people must have been misled here. The fact that people were convinced (and crowing about) how withdrawing membership of the massive trading block on our doorstep would somehow benefit the UK, on the whole, shows how deeply misled some people were.

Also, worth noting that the sneering goes both ways and that "remainers" was a political pejorative synonymous with "fools" and "traitors" in lead up to the vote and the small window before it became obvious to most people that it was Brexit was silly.

Being desperate to leave the EU has always looked to me like an obsession of an ignorant and racist section of the right. People who only want change if it hurts the villians in their warped image of the world. If we had truly wanted more control over our lives we could have looked into devolution and electoral reform, empowering communities, land reform, etc.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, that's fine.

My issue is with how disrespectful it's been.

Essentially a lot of it seems to come down to 'Leavers were stupid idiots brainwashed by Farage,' which lowers the tone tone of the discussion so significantly that no good can come of it, instead of asking well-intentioned, meaningful probing questions to both sides with genuine interest, instead of 'You messed my country up!' which is not going to lead to any kind of fruitful discussion at all.

You think that unreasonable to react with anger to what you and your fellow Brexit supporters have done?

A degree of venting is normal and IMO acceptable.

This coupled with what I said in my OP that there does tend to be a group of people who are seen as backwards and just not with the programme, whom many folks aren't even really trying to understand.

It seems strange to me that you apparently want to paint yourself as a vilified minority despite your side carrying a (slim) majority in the Brexit vote.

It often reads to me as one side understands the other, but the other doesn't understand the one, due to a belief in 'being on the right side'. It's giving me damnable grief, I'll tell you

By the same token, I don't see much to suggest that you're interested in seeing things from their side and understanding why they think they're on the right side.

 

[LuisDantas]

What should people expect when they call their oppositors "Remoaners" and promoters of "Project Fear"?

Whatever the Brexit controversy was, it was not about showing respect towards or deserving respect from Remainers.

 

[Mock Turtle]

When I voted I was 21.

And where I was talking about those unable to vote - due to their age.

I think you must be in a different class, then.

No class for me, unless outclassed.

We prefer closed borders to stop low-skilled immigrants and would have preferred only highly-skilled immigrants, to stop what @Augustus rightly noted as low-skilled workers dropping the pay for everyone. They help keep prices unreasonably low and hurt British business. From the Remainer side it just seemed to be 'But I want to be able to go to Majorca!' I mean, congrats that you obviously have the money to do that in the first place, but also you can still go on foreign holidays exactly the same. I didn't see the issue. There was also the issue of Eastern European migrants sending money back home and taking it out of the UK economy.

We? There are lots of advantages and disadvantages of having immigrants, but as I saw this it was a net benefit as to such, especially with our closest neighbours (less chance of conflict ensuing perhaps), and given that immigration has always been the welcoming policy of any nation that saw no especial deficits from doing such. Unfortunate as it is for many, local issues should never dictate government policies.

We can develop our own projects. It seems some of the Remainers see the UK as so damn weak it can't finance or do anything itself. This is a load of nonsense; we have lots of money to do those things. I also don't see why we need to be in a union to have joint projects with other countries when we could do that anyway.

Haha. But why waste money duplicating what other nations will do and where for modest sums we could share in such? Not notice for example the aerospace industry where we collaborated with Italy, France, and Germany on occasions, and where the item mentioned was more about global satellites as to positioning and such. Just seems so silly to go it alone for prestige or pride.

Nor do we need a union for common laws.

Well of course you don't think so since you have rather particular beliefs - as to even any government authority even having control as to what we wear apparently - according to one thread.

The UK is not an outsider; that seems to be a mental concept harboured by the very idea of a Europe united by the EU and somehow separate without it. We're still a shared landmass or accessible by boat; we're still Europeans, literally nothing has changed on that front.

Well we certainly are less close than we once were - given I did travel a lot in Europe whilst we were members of the EU.

Leavers just would like an explanation of Remain that isn't 'but muh foreign holidays and fancy foods', which is what it's often sounding like - a preference for the Continent over British interests.

You seem to have missed much of what I said then. And on the other hand, you seem to have too much of the patriotic bias in you which is often the dividing aspect to life when we just have to admit we do live in a wider world - and one which hopefully tends towards world harmony than disagreement - which just doesn't happen so much when 'our nation above all others' (as per Trump and his ilk) is the motto - or MAGA - so take your pick.

 

[Mock Turtle]

It's really fun having people who didn't vote Leave telling me, a Leaver surrounded by other Leavers, why we voted Leave.

Please keep doing that, it's not insulting at all.

And then you wonder why we voted Leave.

But haven't you been telling us why people voted to leave?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Writing why Leavers voted the way they did includes me, so yes, they're lumping me into that bracket.

Either that or it's 'Well you maybe didn't...' as though I'm some kind of one off, which just isn't true.

It shows a very broad lack of understanding as to why anyone actually voted Leave, which many on the Remain side seems to think was all based on certain politicians' words and advertisements.

Many people on either side didn't seem to have voted purely based on this as votes tend to be complicated by way, way more complex factors such as location, job, history, ideology, religion and so on. Narrowing it down to 'Leavers listened to lying Johnson' or 'Remainers listened to the lying EU' is just not helpful here when it comes to the complex emotional and ideological reasons why people tend to vote at all.

I'm finding some sentiments quite reductionist.

I'm not anti-Remain. I don't think Remain are idiots or liars or any other thing. I think they had good, honest reasons to vote the way they did. I just wish that courtesy were offered to Leavers, but this thread does not seem to demonstrate that.

I didn't see anyone post so broadly actually.

Also, this goes both ways...
Just because you and those around you voted for such and such reason, doesn't mean all the others did as well.

I agree we should be careful with language though.

Generally, it seems to me that when talking in general terms about the "leavers" (or the remainers for that matter), mostly people seem to be talking about those who spear headed the actual campaigns. The "faces" of those movements.

It just so happens that those in the "leave" campaign have been brutally dishonest and misleading.
And their campaign tactics, unethical.

I'm not even getting into the pro or cons of it all.
Just the broad spectrum of deliberate lies, the social engineering, the manipulation, the preying on fear and emotion, the unethical use of social media algorithms using psychological profiling and targetted ads,... It's quite brutal tbh.

 

[Rival]

You think that unreasonable to react with anger to what you and your fellow Brexit supporters have done?

A degree of venting is normal and IMO acceptable.



It seems strange to me that you apparently want to paint yourself as a vilified minority despite your side carrying a (slim) majority in the Brexit vote.



By the same token, I don't see much to suggest that you're interested in seeing things from their side and understanding why they think they're on the right side.

We have, from our POV, indeed been vilified as racist, backwards, on the wrong side of history, voting wrong, being mislead, being victims of lies, being against young people's interests, being xenophobic, wanting the Empire back, it goes on and on. If that's not vilification I don't know what it is, but it's sure not very nice.

I do understand the Remain POV as it's the dominant media, progressive view. It's they who don't seem to understand us, which I have already mentioned.

Haidt gets this in his moral values example, where conservatives get liberals but not the other way around, because conservatives have values liberals haven't, so the liberals can't see where the conservatives are coming from,

Who's better at pretending to be the other side: conservatives or liberals? - Barking Up The Wrong Tree

Everything you need to know about Who's better at pretending to be the other side: conservatives or liberals?

bakadesuyo.com

https://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/current/readings/haidth-graham.pdf

What should people expect when they call their oppositors "Remoaners" and promoters of "Project Fear"?

Whatever the Brexit controversy was, it was not about showing respect towards or deserving respect from Remainers.

Those on the Remain side called us Project Fear. I don't know which side started what.

Yes, there are ******** out there who use slurs on both sides. I don't condone that language.

And where I was talking about those unable to vote - due to their age.

No class for me, unless outclassed.

We? There are lots of advantages and disadvantages of having immigrants, but as I saw this it was a net benefit as to such, especially with our closest neighbours (less chance of conflict ensuing perhaps), and given that immigration has always been the welcoming policy of any nation that saw no especial deficits from doing such. Unfortunate as it is for many, local issues should never dictate government policies.

Haha. But why waste money duplicating what other nations will do and where for modest sums we could share in such? Not notice for example the aerospace industry where we collaborated with Italy, France, and Germany on occasions, and where the item mentioned was more about global satellites as to positioning and such. Just seems so silly to go it alone for prestige or pride.

Well of course you don't think so since you have rather particular beliefs - as to even any government authority even having control as to what we wear apparently - according to one thread.

Well we certainly are less close than we once were - given I did travel a lot in Europe whilst we were members of the EU.

You seem to have missed much of what I said then. And on the other hand, you seem to have too much of the patriotic bias in you which is often the dividing aspect to life when we just have to admit we do live in a wider world - and one which hopefully tends towards world harmony than disagreement - which just doesn't happen so much when 'our nation above all others' (as per Trump and his ilk) is the motto - or MAGA - so take your pick.

You don't seem to understand patriotism and nationalism, I guess? This is indeed at the heart of this. We can and should be able to do these things by ourselves, like the US does. I see little issue.

But haven't you been telling us why people voted to leave?

I have been correcting other non-leaver's arguments that strawmen us. Remainers trying to explain the leave vote to Leavers is incredibly patronising.

I didn't see anyone post so broadly actually.

Also, this goes both ways...
Just because you and those around you voted for such and such reason, doesn't mean all the others did as well.

I agree we should be careful with language though.

Generally, it seems to me that when talking in general terms about the "leavers" (or the remainers for that matter), mostly people seem to be talking about those who spear headed the actual campaigns. The "faces" of those movements.

It just so happens that those in the "leave" campaign have been brutally dishonest and misleading.
And their campaign tactics, unethical.

I'm not even getting into the pro or cons of it all.
Just the broad spectrum of deliberate lies, the social engineering, the manipulation, the preying on fear and emotion, the unethical use of social media algorithms using psychological profiling and targetted ads,... It's quite brutal tbh.

And Remain wasn't? Both sides we using crappy arguments and manipulative techniques. It seems rather self-serving to suggest the side you took just happened not to use those tactics.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

And Remain wasn't?

Not to my knowledge. At least not even remotely to the same extent.
I'm sure you can find an example left and right.

With the leavers, it was the very core of the entire campaign.

It seems rather self-serving to suggest the side you took just happened not to use those tactics.

I'm not taking any particular side. I have my opinions, sure, but that has nothing to do with this.

The remain campaign didn't employ companies the likes of Cambridge Analytica.

When you say stuff like that, it tells me that you don't really realize just how filthy the leave campaign was.

 

[Rival]

Not to my knowledge. At least not even remotely to the same extent.
I'm sure you can find an example left and right.

With the leavers, it was the very core of the entire campaign.


I'm not taking any particular side. I have my opinions, sure, but that has nothing to do with this.

The remain campaign didn't employ companies the likes of Cambridge Analytica.

When you say stuff like that, it tells me that you don't really realize just how filthy the leave campaign was.

Remain did lots of bs as well. There's plenty of evidence of it.

I just don't know why there's always a focus on campaigns, as though that were the heart of the debate. If it were for some people, both would have been subject to vile tactics. Yet this is not all of the story of the vote.

All it seems to come down to for some people is 'THE LEAVE CAMPAIGN WAS HORRIBLE AND SINCE THEY KNEW THEY COULDN'T WIN BY HONESTY THEY LIED!' which is also garbage.

I think some folks genuinely don't understand there were actual reasons for leaving the EU. The fact that almost no-one here who is pro-Remain has named any is quite telling. Instead it's just insult and polemic. 'Oh you voted based on nationalism okay, BUT NATIONALISM IS BAD.'

It's an attack, ultimately, on the values of Leavers because for some reason the nation-state is out of fashion.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Why is there a suggestion that anyone who voted for Brexit was misled?

Those who voted for Trump are misled?

As if we had sense we'd vote for the 'right' thing.

As if there's a side that votes dumbly and tends to be rural, conservative and traditional and there's a side that votes sensibly and they are urban, liberal and progressive. It's bull****.

@Augustus

Because you're all disgusting white neo-Nazis who have the audacity not to live in places as cool and fashionable as London or attend the poshest schools, so you're all too dumb and primitive to know what's best for you.

Did I do it right?

 

[Secret Chief]

Because you're all disgusting white neo-Nazis who have the audacity not to live in places as cool and fashionable as London or attend the poshest schools, so you're all too dumb and primitive to know what's best for you.

Did I do it right?

No, that's just ignorant stupidity.

 

[Secret Chief]

Remain did lots of bs as well. There's plenty of evidence of it.

Provide some links then.