Why the Worship of Ancient Greece and Rome?

[Rival]

It just doesn't mean paganism was a beacon of enlightenment for Europe or anywhere else.

A lot of folks seem to think it was, though - hence my bafflement.

 

[Debater Slayer]

A lot of folks seem to think it was, though - hence my bafflement.

I suspect it could be a form of romanticizing the "enemy of my enemy." When one views an ideology or religion as an archetype of evil, it's easy to draw a straight line from that to glorifying said archetype's enemies (or supposed enemies)--in this case, paganism.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

A lot of folks seem to think it was, though - hence my bafflement.

But Christians are evil. Even my wife.

 

[Augustus]

Downplaying the significant harms that theocratic laws caused throughout parts of Christendom doesn't seem to be a sound argument against the exaggerated demonization of medieval Europe.

There is a strong need to correct the exaggerated demonisation that exists as "common knowledge" though

For example, if you were a woman, or a non-elite male your best chance of getting an education was from those damned Christians, who were also the biggest preservers and translators of (proto)scientific texts, the biggest funders of scientific research, etc.

 

[Debater Slayer]

There is a strong need to correct the exaggerated demonisation that exists as "common knowledge" though

For example, if you were a woman, or a non-elite male your best chance of getting an education was from those damned Christians, who were also the biggest preservers and translators of (proto)scientific texts, the biggest funders of scientific research, etc.

Of course: the goal of pointing out the harms of mixing religion and government should, in my opinion, be to highlight the importance of secularism in any equitable society, not to demonize or glorify any specific religion.

However, I see no contradiction between the Church's preserving knowledge at certain points in history and its facilitation of large-scale abuse at other points. Some notable scientists from past centuries were eugenicists, racists, etc. The positive doesn't cancel out the negative, and vice versa.

 

[exchemist]

Come on, the headgear, you've gotta love the headgear.

Apparently, the notion of horned helmets is one of those annoying myths.........

 

[Polymath257]

Come on, the headgear, you've gotta love the headgear.

Which they didn't wear.

 

[Augustus]

In my opinion, the term "Christian dark ages" doesn't seem so outlandish when applied to events like the Inquisition, Crusades, and forced conversions. I

Taking a handful of out of context events (or series of events) that happened in the late middle ages or early modern period ("The Renaissance") and calling them "The Christian Dark Ages" doesn't seem like a particularly useful way to increase people's understanding of history in a balanced and critical manner.

 

[Rival]

Of course: the goal of pointing out the harms of mixing religion and government should, in my opinion, be to highlight the importance of secularism in any equitable society, not to demonize or glorify any specific religion.

Christendom gave us the very idea of secularism, tho, and this was a debate in the Mediaeval age between the Pope/s and the Kings. This is a lot more nuanced than is often given credit.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Taking a handful of out of context events (or series of events) that happened in the late middle ages or early modern period ("The Renaissance") and calling them "The Christian Dark Ages" doesn't seem like a particularly useful way to increase people's understanding of history in a balanced and critical manner.

That such large-scale atrocities were actively endorsed and perpetrated by the Church is a significant fact, though. It isn't all there is to Christianity or its diverse, numerous denominations, but it seems to me a salient historical example of why secularism is a cornerstone of any society that wishes to maintain equal rights and humanitarian values for its citizens.

I agree that misattributing those events to earlier periods doesn't help to increase anyone's understanding of history.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Christendom gave us the very idea of secularism, tho, and this was a debate in the Mediaeval age between the Pope/s and the Kings. This is a lot more nuanced than is often given credit.

But then the Church threw or tried to throw the separation of religion and government out of the window at multiple later points--up to and including ones in the present age--and enabled various crimes and abusive practices as a result.

Neither medieval achievements nor later shortcomings give the full picture.

 

[Augustus]

Apparently, the notion of horned helmets is one of those annoying myths.........

I reckon it was invented by the Saxons after getting conquered by their descendants, the Normans

Better to get conquered by berserkers wielding might battle axes, than these mincing, pantaloon wearing fops

"Honestly guv, they were all massive Vikings at least 12 feet tall and with massive horns on their helmets. They were like the devil himself..."

 

[Rival]

But then the Church threw or tried to throw the separation of religion and government out of the window at multiple later points--up to and including ones in the present age--and enabled various crimes and abusive practices as a result.

Neither medieval achievements nor later shortcomings give the full picture.

Nothing ever works the way it says it does, but this is to be human. If it were not for those debates, we wouldn't have such separation today.

 

[Secret Chief]

Which they didn't wear.

Party pooper. They sell children's plastic ones at York museum. I got one for when I storm the Houses of Parliament.

 

[Augustus]

Party pooper. They sell children's plastic ones at York museum. I got one for when I storm the Houses of Parliament.

Do you reckon some killjoy just stands outside telling 5 year olds "Actually they never wore helmets like that. You look like a complete fool. Show some self-respect."

 

[Polymath257]

When discussing the effect Christianity has on learning, I think it is a good idea to make a distinction concerning which time period is being discussed (this is true of Islam as well, but here we are discussing Western Europe). The effects of the Christianity of Theodosius and that of Charlemagne were quite different. The Christianity after the translation movement is quite different than that of 600AD. And both of those are very different than what can be seen after the Reformation.

There *was* a European dark age. Like other dark ages, it is dark because few written records from that time period are known, so we simply don't have a good idea what was going on during that time. The lack of records is largely due to a decline in literacy. The details of Visigothic Spain or the Merovingians are probably mostly lost to time. Much of the early medieval history of England is lost because few records were ever made and most of those that were have been destroyed or lost. We have *some* records, but not many and they don't answer most of the questions we have.

But there is a HUGE difference between Europe in 700AD and Europe in 1200AD. The latter had an intellectually dynamic culture in a way that the previous simply didn't.

 

[Rival]

Do you reckon some killjoy just stands outside telling 5 year olds "Actually they never wore helmets like that. You look like a complete fool. Show some self-respect."

That would be me

 

[Rival]

There *was* a European dark age. Like other dark ages, it is dark because few written records from that time period are known,

Yes, this is the reason it was originally called that. I think folks do not understand this, so I think it's time for a new term.

 

[Father Heathen]

The Roman Empire probably plants itself in people's imagination because large, powerful, and lasting and also due to its aesthetic.
And ancient Greece due to its influence upon the aforementioned.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes, this is the reason it was originally called that. I think folks do not understand this, so I think it's time for a new term.

Yeah. The Best Times(TM).