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Why the Worship of Ancient Greece and Rome?

exchemist

Veteran Member
I reckon it was invented by the Saxons after getting conquered by their descendants, the Normans

Better to get conquered by berserkers wielding might battle axes, than these mincing, pantaloon wearing fops

Tapestry_by_unknown_weaver_-_The_Bayeux_Tapestry_%28detail%29_-_WGA24171.jpg




"Honestly guv, they were all massive Vikings at least 12 feet tall and with massive horns on their helmets. They were like the devil himself..."
I don't know about that. Harold Godwinson did a damned good job of defeating the Vikings at Stamford Bridge* first, then had to march to the other end of the country to face Guillaume le Conquerant at Hastings. Not surprising it was all too much, perhaps.

* and I don't mean football at Chelsea's ground...:D.
 
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Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't know about that. Harold Godwinson did a damned good job of defeating the Vikings at Stamford Bridge first, then had to march to the other end of the country to face Guillaume le Conquerant at Hastings. Not surprising it was all too much, perhaps.
I watched an amazing doco Tony Robinson did on Harold. I have a lot of respect for him now. It's on YouTube.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
These societies were horrible to 90% of the folks who lived in them, so why does Western society glorify them so much?

Well, the Dark Ages was apparently coined by a Christian, who tried to combine Christianity with the Roman/Greek thoughts. So both are the fault of Christianity. ;)
 
These societies were horrible to 90% of the folks who lived in them, so why does Western society glorify them so much?

Because medieval Western European Germanics wanted to pretend they were the heirs of the classical world and thus had ancient and exalted histories.

Ditto Renaissance and Enlightenment scholars wanted to aggrandise themselves as being groundbreaking sophisticates and to give themselves a hipster-ish origin myth.

Then the Romans became popular due to Empire and masculine Victorian values.

And Secular Humanists like the Greeks because they were pretty much proto-secular humanists :tearsofjoy:

(If you ignore the absence of both secularism and humanism at least. Other than that, pretty much identical.)
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Because medieval Western European Germanics wanted to pretend they were the heirs of the classical world and thus had ancient and exalted histories.
Yeah, this seems right.

It's an interesting psychological feature though. The human need for some kind of 'pedigree'.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
These societies were horrible to 90% of the folks who lived in them, so why does Western society glorify them so much?

Well, Rome was a cosmopolitan society that encompassed the whole Mediterranean and provided roads, buildings, aqueducts, as well as commentaries, histories, etc. It was the culture in which Christianity arose and was originally adopted. The church was often seen as the inheritor of Roman civilization. Roman law was the model for legal systems for most of European history and the power of the emperors was a model for many European rulers.

Almost every society before modern times was horrid for 90% of the people who lived in them. The lives of most people have *always* been marginal and subject to the vicissitudes of crop failures, wars, and simple pervasive poverty.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
The Roman Empire probably plants itself in people's imagination because large, powerful, and lasting and also due to its aesthetic.
And ancient Greece due to its influence upon the aforementioned.
I'm much more of a sucker for Mediaeval Western style. I never liked Greco-Roman architecture. It sounds as though I'm in a minority.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, Rome was a cosmopolitan society that encompassed the whole Mediterranean and provided roads, buildings, aqueducts, as well as commentaries, histories, etc. It was the culture in which Christianity arose and was originally adopted. The church was often seen as the inheritor of Roman civilization. Roman law was the model for legal systems for most of European history and the power of the emperors was a model for many European rulers.

Almost every society before modern times was horrid for 90% of the people who lived in them. The lives of most people have *always* been marginal and subject to the vicissitudes of crop failures, wars, and simple pervasive poverty.
But it baffles me still, because Rome persecuted the hell out of Christians and many saints became so due to Roman evils. It's contradictory at best, for me.
 
I don't know about that. Harold Godwinson did a damned good job of defeating the Vikings at Stamford Bridge* first, then had to march to the other end of the country to face Guillaume le Conquerant at Hastings. Not surprising it was all too much, perhaps.

* and I don't mean football at Chelsea's ground...:D.

Having to fight 2 battles in a couple of weeks at different ends of the country is no excuse for losing a fight to people called Cedric, Eustace and Percival.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
But it baffles me still, because Rome persecuted the hell out of Christians and many saints became so due to Roman evils. It's contradictory at best, for me.

And then the emperors adopted Christianity and started to persecute the pagans and heretic Christians. That saints were created was considered to be a good thing....

Also, the degree of actual persecution of the Christians is rather exaggerated. Diocletian did some actual persecution, but that was fairly limited and of short duration.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
It's very odd!

I have a bias as I've never much been into Greece or Rome.


it should also be pointed out that the actual amount of persecution that the pagan Romans did towards Christians pales in comparison to how much persecution the Christian Romans did to other Christians. From Arians, to Donatists, to Monophysites, to Nestorians, the Christians have always enjoyed persecuting their own heretics.

Also, it is interesting how often Christians consider it to be persecution when they aren't allowed to persecute others. This continues to today.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
"And for thousands of years people will name their firstborn sons Norman, Percival and Eustace in the hope that they too will grow up to be mighty warriors with names that echo through the ages..."
Whereas the name Cedric would be reserved for a fairly dull car, made by Nissan in the mid 80s, and named according to the famously tin-eared tradition of Japanese automotive marketing departments........... :confused:


f628f0538250d2b9a768da04b9a911f9.jpg


I once got one of these stuck in the sabkha, shortly after my arrival in Dubai. Had to be towed out by the boss's jeep.:oops:
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Google indicates the witch thing started in the middle ages.
Yes, but the Catholic understanding was and still is that witchcraft isn't real. There were obviously competing beliefs, but the mass witch trials most folks are thinking of were an Early Modern (read: not Mediaeval) phenomenon, and you were very unlikely to be tried as a witch pre-1500.

Similarly, the Lombard code of 643 states:

Let nobody presume to kill a foreign serving maid or female slave as a witch, for it is not possible, nor ought to be believed by Christian minds.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Yes, but the Catholic understanding was and still is that witchcraft isn't real. There were obviously competing beliefs, but the mass witch trials most folks are thinking of were an Early Modern (read: not Mediaeval) phenomenon, and you were very unlikely to be tried as a witch pre-1500.

Similarly, the Lombard code of 643 states:

Let nobody presume to kill a foreign serving maid or female slave as a witch, for it is not possible, nor ought to be believed by Christian minds.
I will be satisfied with " yes but"
 
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