Why would an All-Loving God create a world that has so much suffering in it?

[Trailblazer]

I haven't made up a doctrine, Many prominent Bible scholars hold to this doctrine.

People have been taught to believe one position, and many simply refuse to consider another. This attitude precludes them from seeing the Bible verses in a different way, and their objective thinking ceases to exist.

The Bible clearly says that God is omniscient. Man-made doctrines cannot replace the Word of God.

God is Omniscient
What Does the Bible Say About Omniscience?
14 Bible verses about God, Omniscience Of
Does God Know Everything? (Omniscient)

God did not create a world as you describe it.

He created a world in perfect harmony, and pain, suffering, depression, disease, death did not exist.

Maybe that was true thousands of years ago that there was more harmony and less pain, suffering, and depression, but disease and death have always existed and they will always exist, even if we reach a point where there is more harmony and less pain, suffering, and depression.

The human body was not designed to live forever, that is blatantly obvious, so this idea that people would have lived forever in a physical body if Adam and Eve had not sinned is pure fantasy. How people can still believe these things in the modern age of science is beyond my comprehension.

God will remake the world as He intended to be. Those who died in harmony with Him will be resurrected in a glorified physical body to ultimately live on the earth, a material earth.

There is nothing I can say to that except dream on. I am not going to try to talk you out of these beliefs, you will just have to find out what really happens when you die. Meanwhile, you will continue to believe what you believe because it gives you hope and comfort.

It never even occurs to Christians that if people lived forever on earth, no new life could ever be born, because the earth could not sustain the overpopulation. But maybe you believe there will just be the few chosen ones who will live forever on earth, and nobody new will ever be born and get a chance to experience life.

All these kinds of Christians think about is themselves and how happy they will be living forever on the recreated earth in their glorified resurrected bodies, to hell with everyone else. Jesus never taught anything like this, it is all Christian doctrines that came along much later, based upon a misinterpretation of the Bible.

 

[MonkeyFire]

If evil destroyed the world, the world was created by it too. The center of time is the bottomless pit, and before and after time (alpha and omega) would be the sweet spot. The world can suffer once and still be holy, and if it is holy you will only suffer once.

 

[Bobby Anderson]

So if I as a human in this world would not allow a little girl to be kidnapped, raped, beaten, tortured, burnt alive and killed, then how do I expect that my Parent from which my Spirit comes would allow these things to really happen? Am I more moral and loving? Should I ask to take the place of the parent? Of course not! If we want to see our Parent, then we will. When we see, we will then know. Know what this world really is and why we are here. I do not have to wonder anymore. These things do not happen, but to know that and how that is, we must unveil our Heart (inner spirit) to our Parent. Then we are set free as promised There is not a religion, teaching or book that will tell us this. We all come to this knowledge in our own time and will. We have to want to know more than anything else. Do you?

 

[Trailblazer]

So if I as a human in this world would not allow a little girl to be kidnapped, raped, beaten, tortured, burnt alive and killed, then how do I expect that my Parent from which my Spirit comes would allow these things to really happen? Am I more moral and loving? Should I ask to take the place of the parent? Of course not!

I am not sure what you mean by that, take the place of the parent.

If we want to see our Parent, then we will. When we see, we will then know. Know what this world really is and why we are here. I do not have to wonder anymore. These things do not happen, but to know that and how that is, we must unveil our Heart (inner spirit) to our Parent. Then we are set free as promised There is not a religion, teaching or book that will tell us this. We all come to this knowledge in our own time and will. We have to want to know more than anything else. Do you?

I believe that is probably true. Religion offers guidance but we all have to use that guidance to make our own personal connections to God. The book cannot tell us how to do it, we have to figure it out for ourselves.

Of course I want to know it more than anything else. There is nothing I want in the material world of dust, except the cats that I love.

I do not know how anyone can prove that God is Love, except to themselves.
I do not care to know because I need love for myself, but I would like to know because I want to know the Truth, whatever it is.

 

[Bobby Anderson]

"I am not sure what you mean by that, take the place of the parent."
It means if I were more moral and had more mercy and love, would I not be more qualified to be God? Of course I am not more qualified, so that tells us what our Parent is not. He is not less than me for sure, but much, much more. If I come from my Parent, I am of my Parent, and do the will of my Parent. My will is to tell you look deeper inside. Religion neither yours nor mine knows the true Parent. Only the inner Spirit shall know and be full of true joy and love.

 

[Bobby Anderson]

"I do not know how anyone can prove that God is Love, except to themselves"
100% correct. If I am of my Parent, I can only tell you were to seek to find this knowledge. It is not spoken with words of this world, but is felt deep within our Spirit, for our Spirit came forth from the Pure Love.

 

[Trailblazer]

"I am not sure what you mean by that, take the place of the parent."
It means if I were more moral and had more mercy and love, would I not be more qualified to be God? Of course I am not more qualified, so that tells us what our Parent is not. He is not less than me for sure, but much, much more. If I come from my Parent, I am of my Parent, and do the will of my Parent. My will is to tell you look deeper inside. Religion neither yours nor mine knows the true Parent. Only the inner Spirit shall know and be full of true joy and love.

With all due respect, I believe that the Manifestations of God such as Jesus and Baha'u'llah knew God better than we can ever know God. But that does not mean we cannot find the truth inside as well. That is what they taught us to do. There is no contradiction between true religion and self discovery. They work hand in hand.

 

[Trailblazer]

"I am not sure what you mean by that, take the place of the parent."
It means if I were more moral and had more mercy and love, would I not be more qualified to be God? Of course I am not more qualified, so that tells us what our Parent is not. He is not less than me for sure, but much, much more.

Obviously we cannot be more qualified than God, because God is All-Powerful and All-Knowing and All-Wise and no human is. But those are just attributes, and God is far above all His attributes.

 

[Trailblazer]

"I do not know how anyone can prove that God is Love, except to themselves"
100% correct. If I am of my Parent, I can only tell you were to seek to find this knowledge. It is not spoken with words of this world, but is felt deep within our Spirit, for our Spirit came forth from the Pure Love.

That sounds great, but I do not think that everyone is capable of getting in touch with their Spirit. It varies by individual.

 

[Bobby Anderson]

"That sounds great, but I do not think that everyone is capable of getting in touch with their Spirit. It varies by individual"
So some Spirits are created better and have more of a chance? I think we all know that is not true, so we can all seek the same. It is the desire and will of the person. Do you disagree?

"With all due respect, I believe that the Manifestations of God such as Jesus and Baha'u'llah knew God better than we can ever know God. But that does not mean we cannot find the truth inside as well. That is what they taught us to do. There is no contradiction between true religion and self discovery. They work hand in hand"

No disrespect taken at all. Why did these two know God better? Is not the same Truth inside us all? If so, can we not choose to seek and find that Truth? So why are they better than we ever could? Is it not our own choice to seek and know? Is that not selling ourselves and our Parent short? Does our Parent have favorites? The contradiction between religion and inner Truth is that the people who create a religion have not yet found inner Truth. That is why they needed that religion. How can religion be equal to real inner Truth? Real inner Truth knows there is no need for the words of religion, but simply the Truth of our Parent that resides within us. What if a person never saw books or heard of religion? Is he devoid of a chance at real Truth? That is the entire contradiction in all religion. We are all equal and have the same chance to seek Truth. If we believe others have a better chance, then they are not equals. Did Jesus not say we are all equal. Call no man Teacher or Rabbi. One is our Teacher? Who is that ONE? Is not our inner Spirit of that ONE? The that Spirit alone is Truth.

 

[Bobby Anderson]

I ask this not to offend, but as deep thought. Who would tell us we cant understand our Parent like the two you mentioned? Would it not be the enemy, our worldly mind? Would not the enemy make us doubt in that manner? So is religion not the enemy, created by the mind, the enemy?

 

[WalterTrull]

Divert from what?

Stopped you from what?

Do you mean you are now grateful for all the suffering?
Sure, sometimes we are grateful looking back, but not at the time.

Nah. Grateful for guidance. Right, not at the time. In retrospect though...

 

[loverofhumanity]

With all due respect, I do not understand how God's Love is relevant to the OP question. I cannot agree that even if we felt that God loved us that would end all our suffering.

Some suffering comes about by disobeying the commandments of God, but that is not the only suffering we have to endure:

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

And WHY is man forced to endure them? Because God set it up that way and it is their fate.

Childbirth lasts just a short time and then it is over. What about people who suffer most of their life all the time?
Even if we change man's unjust system and follow God's System, there will still be suffering in this world, because suffering is inherent in a material world, and this is the point I am trying to make; but so far all the believers refuse to see God's part in it. Who created the world that is a storehouse of suffering, man? No, God created it, knowing humans would suffer.

“Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions.” Selections, p. 200

I believe suffering is meant for our perfection.

Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit."

"Those who suffer most, attain to the greatest perfection..."

Suffering comes to us for two reasons - either as a consequence of our own actions or as a test sent by God for our spiritual development.

 

[shmogie]

The Bible clearly says that God is omniscient. Man-made doctrines cannot replace the Word of God.

God is Omniscient
What Does the Bible Say About Omniscience?
14 Bible verses about God, Omniscience Of
Does God Know Everything? (Omniscient)

Maybe that was true thousands of years ago that there was more harmony and less pain, suffering, and depression, but disease and death have always existed and they will always exist, even if we reach a point where there is more harmony and less pain, suffering, and depression.

The human body was not designed to live forever, that is blatantly obvious, so this idea that people would have lived forever in a physical body if Adam and Eve had not sinned is pure fantasy. How people can still believe these things in the modern age of science is beyond my comprehension.

There is nothing I can say to that except dream on. I am not going to try to talk you out of these beliefs, you will just have to find out what really happens when you die. Meanwhile, you will continue to believe what you believe because it gives you hope and comfort.

It never even occurs to Christians that if people lived forever on earth, no new life could ever be born, because the earth could not sustain the overpopulation. But maybe you believe there will just be the few chosen ones who will live forever on earth, and nobody new will ever be born and get a chance to experience life.

All these kinds of Christians think about is themselves and how happy they will be living forever on the recreated earth in their glorified resurrected bodies, to hell with everyone else. Jesus never taught anything like this, it is all Christian doctrines that came along much later, based upon a misinterpretation of the Bible.

You do not accept the Bible as the authority for exactly what it says. I do.

Peter, Paul, John all came along " much later " and their doctrine is based upon what the Bible doesn't teach.

Uh, their writings constitute part of the Bible.

Are you sure you have any idea of what Christ taught?

It truly does not sound like it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe suffering is meant for our perfection.

Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit."

"Those who suffer most, attain to the greatest perfection..."

Suffering comes to us for two reasons - either as a consequence of our own actions or as a test sent by God for our spiritual development.

With all due respect, I do not think that works across the board, and even if it is true for some people, it still begs the question why an All-Loving God would allow as much suffering as He allows and why there could not have been another way for us to acquire perfections.

I know all people suffer some, but some people suffer a lot more than others. This whole Baha'i idea that we should be grateful to have more suffering is really out of whack; in fact it is indicative of someone with a psychological problem.

I know you have suffered and that led you to the Faith, but I doubt you have suffered as much as I have, which is my entire life. If you had, you would not be attending Baha'i activities and having social gatherings at your house. You have no idea, only my husband and God know what I have endured and still endure. Am I better off for it, not being able to attend any Baha'i activities or interact like a normal person in society? Am I better off not being able to interact with anyone except on forums? Is this going to be the rest of my life?

I think religious people need to get past their scriptures and their pat answers and look at the human beings they are talking to. Something is surely wrong with religious believers when the only two people who offer me empathy and compassion are atheists.

Nobody can ever know what others have to endure unless they have walked a mile in their moccasins. I am sure God knows my suffering, but that does not really help me just knowing that.

 

[Kenny]

God created everything good, what does that mean? The creation itself might have been all good, but suffering is unavoidable in the physical world God created, so we are back to square one.

It wasn't unavoidable.

I do not believe in an actual being called Satan, but rather that Satan as mentioned in the Bible is an allegory which represents the lower selfish material nature of man which fights with the higher spiritual nature of man.

OK... I realize that some people believe that. I simply hold that what Jesus said was about a spiritual being.

But let me pretend I believe there is a Satan as you believe. How does that get God off the hook for creating a material world in which God knew humans would suffer; not because of sin, but because of the nature of the material world itself, which is fraught with accidents, diseases, and natural disasters, not to mention the free will decisions of evil people that affect innocent people. How can you blame Satan for a world that God created?

Because love offers choice. Where there is no choice it is dictatorship. I can blame Satan because he is the author of it. I can also blame myself when I yield to his influence or (as you said) yield to the lower nature because of sin.

My next question is why would an All-Loving God hand authority over to Satan if God knew what Satan would do?

God did not hand it over... man did.

I am sure you have Bible verses that you believe support this belief, but posting them would probably only open up a Pandora's Box.

I do... but there is one simple question that I would appreciate an honest answer.

If I showed you scriptures, would you accept it and change your position?

1) If "yes", I would be happy to do so
2) If "no", then please don't pursue and let's just agree to disagree. I would respect your right to hold a different life paradigm.

 

[Trailblazer]

You do not accept the Bible as the authority for exactly what it says. I do.

It says nothing. It is just words on a page until people read it and interpret it, and even among themselves Christians interpret it differently.

Peter, Paul, John all came along " much later " and their doctrine is based upon what the Bible doesn't teach.

Uh, their writings constitute part of the Bible.

Are you saying that only Matthew, Mark, and Luke are valid gospels?
What is the basis of that belief?

Are you sure you have any idea of what Christ taught?

It truly does not sound like it.

That covers a wide territory and it depends upon what you mean by taught.

Surely what is in the gospels is not the words of Jesus, nor the words of the disciples. It is what was passed down to men through oral tradition.

Stories that were written in the gospels about Jesus rising from the dead are not what Jesus taught. They are stories mean wrote. What Jesus taught is contained in the Sermon on the Mount, and other such verses.

 

[Trailblazer]

It wasn't unavoidable.

How is suffering avoidable in a physical world?

OK... I realize that some people believe that. I simply hold that what Jesus said was about a spiritual being.

Okay.

Because love offers choice. Where there is no choice it is dictatorship. I can blame Satan because he is the author of it. I can also blame myself when I yield to his influence or (as you said) yield to the lower nature because of sin.

I said: “But let me pretend I believe there is a Satan as you believe. How does that get God off the hook for creating a material world in which God knew humans would suffer; not because of sin, but because of the nature of the material world itself,” I was not talking about the suffering that comes about owing to choices that we make. I was talking about what we have no choice but to endure. If God is love, God is not giving us any choices except to endure what is not subject to our free will.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

God did not hand it over... man did.

I guess you mean in the Garden of Eden, so even if that story was literally true, what kind of an All-Loving and Just God would make all of humanity pay for the sins of Adam and Eve, making it necessary for Jesus to die on the cross to atone for them? And unless nobody ever sins anymore the sins have not been removed. Are there no Christians that sin? If they do, what was the point of the cross sacrifice? I just got an article in my e-mail that explains the Baha’i view which points out that a number of Christian theologians have recommended that the time has come to totally rethink the strange logic of this penal substitution concept, the prevalent view among Protestants.

Baha’u’llah’s New Vision of Christ’s Atonement

I do... but there is one simple question that I would appreciate an honest answer.

If I showed you scriptures, would you accept it and change your position?

1) If "yes", I would be happy to do so
2) If "no", then please don't pursue and let's just agree to disagree. I would respect your right to hold a different life paradigm.

No, I do not think it would change my position so I guess it is best to agree to disagree.

 

[shmogie]

It says nothing. It is just words on a page until people read it and interpret it, and even among themselves Christians interpret it differently.

Are you saying that only Matthew, Mark, and Luke are valid gospels?
What is the basis of that belief?

That covers a wide territory and it depends upon what you mean by taught.

Surely what is in the gospels is not the words of Jesus, nor the words of the disciples. It is what was passed down to men through oral tradition.

Stories that were written in the gospels about Jesus rising from the dead are not what Jesus taught. They are stories mean wrote. What Jesus taught is contained in the Sermon on the Mount, and other such verses.

You do not accept the Bible as its own authority.

You substitute your own judgement laced with your own prejudices.

End of conversation.

 

[Trailblazer]

You do not accept the Bible as its own authority.

You substitute your own judgement laced with your own prejudices.

End of conversation.

It is sad that you cannot understand that you use your own judgement laced with your own prejudices, so anyone who does not agree with you has to be wrong. I am sure that there are Christians who accept the Bible as its own authority yet they disagree with you, so I guess they must substitute their own judgement laced with their own prejudices.

The 100-dollar question is who gave you the authority to interpret the Bible and assign the correct meanings.

End of conversation.