Why would an All-Loving God create a world that has so much suffering in it?

[Trailblazer]

If God knows what we will choose then we are just robots, automatons.
We could Not love God of our own free will because God would be doing the choosing / thinking for us.
Thankfully the God of the Bible is Not like that, but what we do is of our own free-will choices.

What you apparently do not understand is that what God knows is not what causes things to happen.
God knows what we will choose but God does no make us choose it. We choose it freely.

I believe God is omniscient but that in no way precludes human free will. Let me explain how this is possible.

“Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......

Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

God knows what humans will do before during and after they do it, but God does not cause them to do anything.What causes it to happen is a human free will choice which is a choice God KNOWS we will make. That choice becomes an action that God KNEW about ahead of time.

 

[Fool]

Life without love is hell

 

[Trailblazer]

In the fall, the forgetting, love won.he who has all the toys wins but has no one to play with.

I'm lost.

 

[Trailblazer]

Life without love is hell

Life with love is hell, if you lose the ones you love repeatedly.

 

[Fool]

Life with love is hell, if you lose the ones you love repeatedly.

Life without love is suffering. Better to have loved and lost than to always be alone in your heart.

 

[Fool]

I'm lost.

That's the reason you started this thread.

 

[Trailblazer]

Life without love is suffering. Better to have loved and lost than to always be alone in your heart.

That is debatable and it depends upon what you have lost and whether you can get over the loss.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's the reason you started this thread.

That's true, but so what?
I am still lost because nobody has any answers that are logical, just a bunch of religious jargon and obfuscation in order to deny the fact that God cannot be All-Loving.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Why would an All-Loving God create a world that has so much suffering in it?

We cannot blame God for all the suffering in the world, because humans have free will so they are responsible for some of their own suffering, but clearly God set it up so we would suffer, and some people suffer so much more than others, often through no fault of their own. This happens because that was their fate, a fate determined by God. Some of that fate is impending and can be avoided but some of it is irrevocable so we are stuck with it no matter what we try to do to avoid it. I believe this because it is based upon my religious beliefs:

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

Note that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.”

What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God.

Evil consequences do not sound like they are coming from an All-Loving God… What’s up with that?

I am sorry, but I cannot believe that God is All-Loving because of what I see in the world. Why would an All-Loving God create a world like this where some people suffer a lot and some people suffer hardly at all? How just is that?

The usual religious apologetic is that “we will know more in the afterlife” and that “all our suffering will be over in the afterlife,” but even if that is true, what good does that do us now? Not only has very little been revealed by God about that afterlife, but it has to be believed solely on faith.

Another religious apologetic is that “suffering makes us grow stronger,” and that might be true for some people, but not for all people. Aside from that, an omnipotent/omniscient God could have come up with a better way for us to grow stronger, Imo. Putting us through this torture chamber is not what I consider Loving. Of course, I do not expect people who have not suffered much and have been happy most of their lives to understand what I am saying. It is probably very easy for them to see God as All-Loving.

I am sure there will be the people who say they have suffered a lot but they still believe God is All-Loving. I am waiting to hear from them. Please bear in mind that what they call suffering might not have been so bad, and they have no way of knowing the suffering that other people have endured. As far as I am concerned the worst suffering anyone can endure is loss of a loved one, human or animal, another great part of God’s design. This might be a test, as in the Story of Job, but I cannot consider a God who does this to people en masse “Loving.”

Some people might say that death of a loved one is no big deal but nobody can understand the suffering of anyone else unless they have walked a mile in their moccasins.

Possibly for the same reason why people create violent video games?

Also, one question I have been thinking of, is it probably because humans actually prefer a suffering world? If we think of what entertains humans in general, we like drama and stories that contain suffering in them. The less drama there is in a story the less entertaining it is for us and the more bored we become.

I think that if there was no suffering in the world, life would be pretty tedious.

Or maybe that is just the sinful nature in me saying that. I dunno.

 

[Trailblazer]

Possibly for the same reason why people create violent video games?

Yeah, I guess God likes to watch all this suffering.

Also, one question I have been thinking of, is it probably because humans actually prefer a suffering world? If we think of what entertains humans in general, we like drama and stories that contain suffering in them. The less drama there is in a story the less entertaining it is for us and the more bored we become

We do like to watch them on TV, but we would not want to be the characters who are suffering. I think people probably like watching them so they can say to themselves their life is not that bad or they are not that bad, because at least they do not go around murdering people.

I think that if there was no suffering in the world, life would be pretty tedious.

I am not advocating for no suffering, just for less and a more equal distribution of suffering.

Or maybe that is just the sinful nature in me saying that. I dunno.

No, it is just your realistic nature.

 

[james bond]

I do not believe in Satan and I do not believe in original sin, so I do not believe hat has anything to do with why there is suffering in the world.

Christians just love to pass the buck, everything is because of Satan or Adam and Eve. That makes it easy not to take responsibility for their own actions. I am not passing the buck to God, I am just questioning why an All-Loving God would create a world which is fraught with suffering.

Just who is making you think and speak these things but Satan? The evidence for God is that the universe and Earth are here. Yet, no matter what your station in life, you cannot take any of your things with you. One of the deepest and greatest truths is ""For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?" Matthew 16:26

It was no coincidence that Darwinism lead to socialDarwinism, Eugenics (racist genocide group formed by Darwin's cousin and supported by Darwin), the Holocaust, and Hitler and Nazism. They wanted to eradicate the Jews of God's chosen people. If they were eradicated by genocide, then God's prophecies would not be able to be fulfilled.

Anyway, the non-believers aren't the only souls he has taken. The father of lies will take many who believe, but have been misled. He also is a master masquerader. The most convincing argument of all should be that of "every eye will see." The dead, the living, and those living in the future when it happens will see the return of Jesus. God told us to be ready, but perhaps just understanding the end correctly is not enough.

Bottom line is Satan is very real and you believe everything he has told you. You have gotten what he has promised you. Just read your subject line. At least you have accepted the crap he has given you. It's really the all-rebellious Satan and not the all-loving God, but to you it's the same difference. It is all about being spiritually dead inside.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

This you cannot believe. Thus, you received what you have taken. Peter warned us as much. The all-loving God warns us while the all-rebellious Satan tempts us.

"Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." 1 Peter 5:8

 

[Trailblazer]

Bottom line is Satan is very real and you believe everything he has told you. You have gotten what he has promised you. Just read your subject line. At least you have accepted the crap he has given you. It's really the all-rebellious Satan and not the all-loving God, but to you it's the same difference. It is all about being spiritually dead inside.

Satan did not tell me anything because there is no Satan.
You have no proof that there is an All-Loving God, it is just a belief you hold.
Enjoy it, even though there is no evidence it exists.
That is what believers do.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yeah, I guess God likes to watch all this suffering.

We do like to watch them on TV, but we would not want to be the characters who are suffering. I think people probably like watching them so they can say to themselves their life is not that bad or they are not that bad, because at least they do not go around murdering people.

I am not advocating for no suffering, just for less and a more equal distribution of suffering.

No, it is just your realistic nature.

I would advocate less extreme suffering. I think that suffering is necessary for us to grow, and some people enjoy drama in their own lives, and people feel good when overcoming suffering. Stuff like death, rape, killing and stealing I would gladly eliminate with extreme prejudice.

I think that humans like watching character on TV or videogames suffering, but not only for the reasons you mention. Many people play video games to be the hero who makes the evil characters suffer and die. It quenches their thirst for justice. But also i think there is an underlying urge to kill people indiscriminately that we reject out of our morality, which is why people like killing random innocents when playing Grand Theft Auto and laughing at these actions. We are more animilistic than I think we give ourselves credit for.

And thanks for assuring me that i am realistic. My conclusions there were making me feel a bit unneasy.

I think that if a god does exists, i wouldnt say he is evil for allowing suffering. He constructed the interaction of life in such a way that lufe is created and sustained as a result of the suffering of others. Carnivires have to stay alive through the suffering of other animals. We eat meat which is attained through the suffering of other animals. We enjoy life at the expense of other humans. Suffering seems to be the circle of life.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Just who is making you think and speak these things but Satan? The evidence for God is that the universe and Earth are here. Yet, no matter what your station in life, you cannot take any of your things with you. One of the deepest and greatest truths is ""For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?" Matthew 16:26

It was no coincidence that Darwinism lead to socialDarwinism, Eugenics (racist genocide group formed by Darwin's cousin and supported by Darwin), the Holocaust, and Hitler and Nazism. They wanted to eradicate the Jews of God's chosen people. If they were eradicated by genocide, then God's prophecies would not be able to be fulfilled.

Anyway, the non-believers aren't the only souls he has taken. The father of lies will take many who believe, but have been misled. He also is a master masquerader. The most convincing argument of all should be that of "every eye will see." The dead, the living, and those living in the future when it happens will see the return of Jesus. God told us to be ready, but perhaps just understanding the end correctly is not enough.

Bottom line is Satan is very real and you believe everything he has told you. You have gotten what he has promised you. Just read your subject line. At least you have accepted the crap he has given you. It's really the all-rebellious Satan and not the all-loving God, but to you it's the same difference. It is all about being spiritually dead inside.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

This you cannot believe. Thus, you received what you have taken. Peter warned us as much. The all-loving God warns us while the all-rebellious Satan tempts us.

"Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." 1 Peter 5:8

Why do you say that the existence of the universe and the earth is evidence that God exists?

And even proving that, it doesnt mean that the specific God you believe in is true, so jumping to the conclusion that Satan exists doesnt logically follow based on whatever evidence you bring

 

[Trailblazer]

I would advocate less extreme suffering. I think that suffering is necessary for us to grow, and some people enjoy drama in their own lives, and people feel good when overcoming suffering. Stuff like death, rape, killing and stealing I would gladly eliminate with extreme prejudice.

I fully agree. I am not advocating elimination of all suffering, just what causes extreme suffering. Unfortunately, death cannot be eliminated, and that is the worst. I do not know how that could have been avoided though, unless nobody new was ever born.

But one thing God could have done is be more definitive about what happens when we die, and what happens to animals when they die.

I think that humans like watching character on TV or videogames suffering, but not only for the reasons you mention. Many people play video games to be the hero who makes the evil characters suffer and die. It quenches their thirst for justice. But also i think there is an underlying urge to kill people indiscriminately that we reject out of our morality, which is why people like killing random innocents when playing Grand Theft Auto and laughing at these actions. We are more animilistic than I think we give ourselves credit for.

You have a point about why we watch. I like to see the murderers get caught and the sentence doled out because I like to see justice done.

And thanks for assuring me that i am realistic. My conclusions there were making me feel a bit unneasy.

Your answer was certainly more realistic than the others who responded on this thread so far.
Christians and even most Baha'is all have this dreamy notion of God.

I think that if a god does exists, i wouldnt say he is evil for allowing suffering. He constructed the interaction of life in such a way that life is created and sustained as a result of the suffering of others. Carnivires have to stay alive through the suffering of other animals. We eat meat which is attained through the suffering of other animals. We enjoy life at the expense of other humans. Suffering seems to be the circle of life.

That was my point, God created the world this was so ultimately God is responsible. One cannot deny that without being illogical.

I do not think God is evil, but I do not think God is nice. The circle of life is not nice. I don't know if there could have been another way, because I am not God, but it seems like an omnipotent/omniscient God could have done something less harsh.

But no, believers will tell you God is All-Loving because that is what they want to believe. Maybe the scriptures say God is Love, but they forgot to read the fine print about God's wrath because they do not like to think about reality.

 

[frbnsn]

Why would an All-Loving God create a world that has so much suffering in it?

We cannot blame God for all the suffering in the world, because humans have free will so they are responsible for some of their own suffering, but clearly God set it up so we would suffer, and some people suffer so much more than others, often through no fault of their own. This happens because that was their fate, a fate determined by God. Some of that fate is impending and can be avoided but some of it is irrevocable so we are stuck with it no matter what we try to do to avoid it. I believe this because it is based upon my religious beliefs:

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

Note that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.”

What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God.

Evil consequences do not sound like they are coming from an All-Loving God… What’s up with that?

I am sorry, but I cannot believe that God is All-Loving because of what I see in the world. Why would an All-Loving God create a world like this where some people suffer a lot and some people suffer hardly at all? How just is that?

The usual religious apologetic is that “we will know more in the afterlife” and that “all our suffering will be over in the afterlife,” but even if that is true, what good does that do us now? Not only has very little been revealed by God about that afterlife, but it has to be believed solely on faith.

Another religious apologetic is that “suffering makes us grow stronger,” and that might be true for some people, but not for all people. Aside from that, an omnipotent/omniscient God could have come up with a better way for us to grow stronger, Imo. Putting us through this torture chamber is not what I consider Loving. Of course, I do not expect people who have not suffered much and have been happy most of their lives to understand what I am saying. It is probably very easy for them to see God as All-Loving.

I am sure there will be the people who say they have suffered a lot but they still believe God is All-Loving. I am waiting to hear from them. Please bear in mind that what they call suffering might not have been so bad, and they have no way of knowing the suffering that other people have endured. As far as I am concerned the worst suffering anyone can endure is loss of a loved one, human or animal, another great part of God’s design. This might be a test, as in the Story of Job, but I cannot consider a God who does this to people en masse “Loving.”

Some people might say that death of a loved one is no big deal but nobody can understand the suffering of anyone else unless they have walked a mile in their moccasins.

He is the one who prepares the world stage and he is the one who gives the will to the person
I think God wants to see if people can do good deeds with their own will.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I fully agree. I am not advocating elimination of all suffering, just what causes extreme suffering. Unfortunately, death cannot be eliminated, and that is the worst. I do not know how that could have been avoided though, unless nobody new was ever born.

But one thing God could have done is be more definitive about what happens when we die, and what happens to animals when they die.

You have a point about why we watch. I like to see the murderers get caught and the sentence doled out because I like to see justice done.

Your answer was certainly more realistic than the others who responded on this thread so far.
Christians and even most Baha'is all have this dreamy notion of God.

That was my point, God created the world this was so ultimately God is responsible. One cannot deny that without being illogical.

I do not think God is evil, but I do not think God is nice. The circle of life is not nice. I don't know if there could have been another way, because I am not God, but it seems like an omnipotent/omniscient God could have done something less harsh.

But no, believers will tell you God is All-Loving because that is what they want to believe. Maybe the scriptures say God is Love, but they forgot to read the fine print about God's wrath because they do not like to think about reality.

I agree with you. I think that people accept religions because they do not want to face reality. So people worship a God who promises that he will grant them life after death because they dont want to accept that death is the end of our lives. So we cant really expect religious people (depending on what religion they believe in of course) to give realistic answers. They will give the answers that reflect what they wish to be true.

So yes God would be responsible if one thinks he is omniscient. He would have created everything knowing how things would play out. Even in the Bible he orders suffering to be carried out. Such as asking the Israelites to kill certain people or when he makes a deal with Satan to test Job.

 

[Trailblazer]

He is the one who prepares the world stage and he is the one who gives the will to the person
I think God wants to see if people can do good deeds with their own will.

I agree with what you said, but that does not address the question in the OP:

Why would an All-Loving God create a world that has so much suffering in it?

Does there have to be constant suffering for some people just so God can see that they can do good deeds with their own will?

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree with you. I think that people accept religions because they do not want to face reality. So people worship a God who promises that he will grant them life after death because they dont want to accept that death is the end of our lives. So we cant really expect religious people (depending on what religion they believe in of course) to give realistic answers. They will give the answers that reflect what they wish to be true.

I fully agree with that, even though I am a religious believer. But as a believer I still question when something that is claimed about God in scriptures seems amiss.

I believe there is a life after death because of my religion and other non-religious evidence, not because I am gung-ho on living forever in some strange realm.

So yes God would be responsible if one thinks he is omniscient. He would have created everything knowing how things would play out. Even in the Bible he orders suffering to be carried out. Such as asking the Israelites to kill certain people or when he makes a deal with Satan to test Job.

That is true, God knew how things would turn out so He is responsible, and He is also responsible because He had all power to create the world differently.

 

[frbnsn]

I agree with what you said, but that does not address the question in the OP:

Why would an All-Loving God create a world that has so much suffering in it?

Does there have to be constant suffering for some people just so God can see that they can do good deeds with their own will?

OK.
God knows everything but doesn't interfere.