Why would it matter if Jesus had risen from the dead?

[Trailblazer]

Hi,
The significance's of Jesus resurrection are varied and numerous.
He offered and handed over the value of his sacrifice to God.
His resurrection strengthened the faith of his followers and was a preview of the resurrection hope for all mankind.
Jesus is enthroned as King in heaven.

Jesus is enthroned in heaven, but not in a physical body, since physical bodies do not exist in heaven, which is a spiritual world.

It would have been all well and good if Christians had not insisted that the physical body of Jesus came back to life, and that is what ruined the whole thing. According to Paul, the physical body is not going to heaven so how could that be a preview of things to come? (1 Corinthians 15:35-58)

All of this and the fact that he conquered death would not be possible and meaningless if he was dead.

But Jesus is not dead, Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body.

It would have been fine if the Christian teaching was that Jesus conquered spiritual death because that is exactly what happened. But no, they had ruin everything by insisting that Jesus rose in a physical body so they could believe that they too would rise in a physical body. Imo, it is the biggest sham of all time.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It would be if it had happened.

Which I believe it did and you don't. So what's the point here?

 

[firedragon]

There have been so many threads being posted about Jesus rising from the dead, so I think it is about time someone asked why it matters so much to people, not only Christians but also atheists.

So what is the significance of Jesus rising from the dead and why is it such a big deal to people?

I have my own ideas but I do not want to give away my position until I have heard from others.

It depends on who you are asking this question.

If its a Christian, read Corinthians 15 and you will get your answer immediately.

Peace.

 

[Dawnofhope]

But why would it make Christ any greater than He already is? The greatest proof of Christ was His completed mission on Earth and His teachings.

“But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.” Some Answered Questions, p. 101

I'm trying to see it from the perspective of a conservative Christian, not Baha'i or liberal Christian.

It would affirm that if they could ever prove it happened.

Somewhere along the line it becomes a circular argument. God is so powerful He could raise Jesus from the dead. Also in His great power He directed the Gospel writers what to write. God is truth and doesn't lie. It was God who wrote the Gospels. God tells us Jesus arose from the dead. Besides, the apostles Matthew and John were eyewitnesses to the events which they wrote.

Once again, I'm seeing it through conservative Christian eyes, the group that is most invested in the literal bodily resurrection.

That is not what I have heard and read. I heard from certain Christians that Paul believed that Christ rose in a spiritual body, not in a physical body.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.

Later, perhaps after Paul's death, there was great disappointment within the Christian communities because Jesus had not returned as expected. They diverted their focus of attention away from Jesus' second coming. They studied his life and death more intensely. Legends without a historical basis were created by the early church; these included the empty tomb and described Jesus returning in his original body to eat and talk with his followers.

Liberal Christians aren't real Christians. They are pretending to be Christians but only fooling themselves. If they don't believe Jesus literally rose from the dead they have lost their faith. A belief in the bodily resurrection of Christ is a core non-negotiable Christian belief.

Once again. I'm putting myself in the shoes of conservative Christians. I used to be one.

As a Baha'i, I believe it is the biggest hoax of all time and a crime against humanity committed by the Christians in power who pushed it from early on and I believe that the unsuspecting Christians who believed them were duped.

Maybe you could answer why you believe that God allowed it because as a Baha'i you do not believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead.

Of course I am a Baha'i so do not believe Jesus literally rose from the dead. The resurrection narrative remains an essential part of Christian and Baha'i belief. However for many of us it is a theological narrative as opposed to a literal historical narrative. As such it is every bit as important as Jesus, Son of God, born to the virgin Mary, the Promised Jewish Messiah, God incarnate, performer of miracles who Life and Teachings are recorded in the Divinely inspired Gospels. I see it as neither a hoax or an injustice perpetrated by early Christians. However the value of these narratives has changed since the nineteenth century when two new Prophets appeared within Persia. We can not pour new wine into old wineskins.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which I believe it did and you don't. So what's the point here?

There is no point.

 

[Trailblazer]

It depends on who you are asking this question.

If its a Christian, read Corinthians 15 and you will get your answer immediately.

Peace.

I know Corinthians 15 by heart and it is not saying anyone is going to 'rise physically' from the dead, as Christians believe.

"Here, Paul depicts resurrection as spiritual, not physical. He says plainly that the "body" resurrected is not the physical body that is "sown” and that a “natural body” is followed by a “spiritual body”. He makes it clear that this spiritual body is nothing like the physical one, and uses two metaphors to make this point: the difference between mature grain and bare seed, and the difference between a moon and a sun."

Read more: Won’t the Dead Rise Again?

 

[74x12]

There have been so many threads being posted about Jesus rising from the dead, so I think it is about time someone asked why it matters so much to people, not only Christians but also atheists.

So what is the significance of Jesus rising from the dead and why is it such a big deal to people?

I have my own ideas but I do not want to give away my position until I have heard from others.

Easy, it's triumph of humanity over death. That is the mortal becoming immortal.

I know that other people rose from the dead before Jesus but Jesus rose immortal. He'll never die again and we can have the same thing thanks to Jesus.

 

[Jimmy]

No, everyone will be resurrected at the Eschaton.

Absolutely.
Smartest thing I’ve read on RF

 

[Trailblazer]

Easy, it's triumph of humanity over death. That is the mortal becoming immortal.

The physical body does not 'become' immortal. That is in-congruent with what Paul said:

The physical body of Jesus was not resurrected and changed from a corruptible body into an incorruptible and immortal body because a physical body cannot be changed into a spiritual body that will never die. Rather, there are two different kinds of bodies, as Paul said:

--- The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

--- For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

What Paul wrote below is right on the money. Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised as spiritual bodies. Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and that means they cannot exist in heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (heaven), which will last forever.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter

I know that other people rose from the dead before Jesus but Jesus rose immortal. He'll never die again and we can have the same thing thanks to Jesus.

As I said above, the physical body does not 'become' immortal so the physical body of Jesus did not rise and become immortal. Rather, the physical body of Jesus died and He was raised in a spiritual body, and we can and will have the same thing, since everyone will be raised in a spiritual body. However, not everyone will have eternal life. Those who believed in Jesus and followed His teachings will have eternal life but that is not continued life in a physical body, it is nearness to God.

 

[Neuropteron]

Jesus is enthroned in heaven, but not in a physical body, since physical bodies do not exist in heaven, which is a spiritual world.

It would have been all well and good if Christians had not insisted that the physical body of Jesus came back to life, and that is what ruined the whole thing. According to Paul, the physical body is not going to heaven so how could that be a preview of things to come? (1 Corinthians 15:35-58)

But Jesus is not dead, Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body.

It would have been fine if the Christian teaching was that Jesus conquered spiritual death because that is exactly what happened. But no, they had ruin everything by insisting that Jesus rose in a physical body so they could believe that they too would rise in a physical body. Imo, it is the biggest sham of all time.

Hi,
Yes, Jesus is alive.
You can be assured that the bible teaches that Jesus was raised in a "spiritual body", .

1 Cor 15:44 " It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual one if there is a physical body there is also a spiritual one"
1 Cor 15:50 "...flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom..."
Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

I know Corinthians 15 by heart and it is not saying anyone is going to 'rise physically' from the dead, as Christians believe.

"Here, Paul depicts resurrection as spiritual, not physical. He says plainly that the "body" resurrected is not the physical body that is "sown” and that a “natural body” is followed by a “spiritual body”. He makes it clear that this spiritual body is nothing like the physical one, and uses two metaphors to make this point: the difference between mature grain and bare seed, and the difference between a moon and a sun."

Read more: Won’t the Dead Rise Again?

I didnt say he wants Jesus to rise physically.

I didnt know you asked "if Jesus rose physically or spiritually". Your question was "So what is the significance of Jesus rising from the dead and why is it such a big deal to people?".So the answer is Corinthians 15 where the hold of Pauls words "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

Anyway, if your question is "did Jesus rise physically or spiritually" in line with Corinthians 15, the Gospels have not been written yet. Mark has not been written yet. And anyway, Mark never ever had any resurrection episodes anyway. So we dont even have a clue if at that early times if there was even any tradition of a resurrection, physical or spiritual. Only Paul was speaking of a resurrection or a raising of Jesus. And later, Marcion an ardent fan of Paul developed the theology that it was spiritual. The whole thing.

Peace.

 

[Nimos]

But so far nobody can tell me why it is a big deal. There would have to be a reason why it is such a big deal.

Because as far as any human know, people do not rise from the dead after 3 days

Then you have the people claiming that he did and that he was the son of God, including himself according to the bible. Did a resurrection actually happen, everyone would consider such thing as rather strong evidence for something supernatural or for something divine as Jesus and the others claim. Obviously it wouldn't as such prove God, but at least that something extremely amazing happened, and most likely put most other religions in the grave so to speak.

 

[Etritonakin]

There have been so many threads being posted about Jesus rising from the dead, so I think it is about time someone asked why it matters so much to people, not only Christians but also atheists.

So what is the significance of Jesus rising from the dead and why is it such a big deal to people?

I have my own ideas but I do not want to give away my position until I have heard from others.

Oooooh Oooooooh Oooooooh

because..... not really dying is really impressive.
Kinda hints at you not having to really die -and at least proves the possibility (direct proof for those who had direct proof).

Ever wondered why Christ was so popular later among non-Israelites? Things happening afterward would be more significant to them than just another crucifixion.


Jesus was placed on the cross at 9 a.m. (Mark 15:25), then “from noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over the whole land” (Matt. 27:45).

“The curtain of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom” (Matt. 27:51).

“The earth quaked, and the rocks were split” (Matt. 27:51).

“The tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised” (Matt. 27:52).

 

[firedragon]

But Jesus is not dead, Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body.

Is this an evidential statement or a faith statement of a particular religion?

 

[firedragon]

But my question was why does it matter?

I think it matters mostly because "Paul Said so".

And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm trying to see it from the perspective of a conservative Christian, not Baha'i or liberal Christian.

Somewhere along the line it becomes a circular argument. God is so powerful He could raise Jesus from the dead. Also in His great power He directed the Gospel writers what to write. God is truth and doesn't lie. It was God who wrote the Gospels. God tells us Jesus arose from the dead. Besides, the apostles Matthew and John were eyewitnesses to the events which they wrote.

Once again, I'm seeing it through conservative Christian eyes, the group that is most invested in the literal bodily resurrection.

Liberal Christians aren't real Christians. They are pretending to be Christians but only fooling themselves. If they don't believe Jesus literally rose from the dead they have lost their faith. A belief in the bodily resurrection of Christ is a core non-negotiable Christian belief.

Once again. I'm putting myself in the shoes of conservative Christians. I used to be one.

Fair enough, you are putting yourself in the shoes of conservative Christians but why would they be any more correct than the liberal Christians? They are both reading from the same Bible.

Of course I am a Baha'i so do not believe Jesus literally rose from the dead. The resurrection narrative remains an essential part of Christian and Baha'i belief.

The resurrection narrative as expounded in the Bible is not an essential part of Baha'i belief, and everything that is important to know about the true meaning of Resurrection is completely lost to Christians simply because they are clinging to the Bible meaning of resurrection.

Regarding the Resurrection, the essential part of Baha'i belief is as follows:

“……..And yet, through the mystery of the former verse, they have turned away from the grace promised by the latter, despite the fact that “attainment unto the divine Presence” in the “Day of Resurrection” 170 is explicitly stated in the Book. It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by “Resurrection” is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause, and by “attainment unto the divine Presence” is meant attainment unto the presence of His Beauty in the person of His Manifestation. For verily, “No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision.” 6”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 169-170

“Strive, therefore, O my brother, to grasp the meaning of “Resurrection,” and cleanse thine ears from the idle sayings of these rejected people. Shouldst thou step into the realm of complete detachment, thou wilt readily testify that no day is mightier than this Day, and that no resurrection more awful than this Resurrection can ever be conceived. One righteous work performed in this Day, equalleth all the virtuous acts which for myriads of centuries men have practised—nay, We ask forgiveness of God for such a comparison! For verily the reward which such a deed deserveth is immensely beyond and above the estimate of men. Inasmuch as these undiscerning and wretched souls have failed to apprehend the true meaning of “Resurrection” and of the “attainment unto the divine Presence,” they therefore have remained utterly deprived of the grace thereof.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 144-145

“At the time of the appearance and manifestation of the rays of the Daystar of Truth, all occupy the same station. God then proclaimeth that which He willeth, and whoso heareth His call and acknowledgeth His truth is accounted among the inhabitants of Paradise. Such a soul hath traversed the Bridge, the Balance, and all that hath been recorded regarding the Day of Resurrection, and hath reached his destination. The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the most great Resurrection. We cherish the hope 63 that, quaffing from the choice wine of divine inspiration and the pure waters of heavenly grace, thou mayest attain the station of discovery and witnessing, and behold, both outwardly and inwardly, all that which thou hast mentioned.”
The Tabernacle of Unity, pp. 62- 63

However for many of us it is a theological narrative as opposed to a literal historical narrative. As such it is every bit as important as Jesus, Son of God, born to the virgin Mary, the Promised Jewish Messiah, God incarnate, performer of miracles who Life and Teachings are recorded in the Divinely inspired Gospels. I see it as neither a hoax or an injustice perpetrated by early Christians. However the value of these narratives has changed since the nineteenth century when two new Prophets appeared within Persia. We can not pour new wine into old wineskins.

In light of what we know today it is a grave injustice and a hoax to continue with this teaching on the bodily resurrection and I am sure if Baha'u'llah was standing here He would fully agree, for He was not quite as gracious as you are.
Baha'ullah clearly describes what they have lost by clinging to these beliefs.

“Inasmuch as these undiscerning and wretched souls have failed to apprehend the true meaning of “Resurrection” and of the “attainment unto the divine Presence,” they therefore have remained utterly deprived of the grace thereof.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 145

 

[Trailblazer]

Obviously it wouldn't as such prove God, but at least that something extremely amazing happened, and most likely put most other religions in the grave so to speak.

If would put them in the grave if it was really true but as my longtime atheist sparring buddy from other forums once said, a story is not proof that anything in the story ever happened.
I sure wish I had his full explication on the matter but that'll have to do for now.

Christians are trying to put all the other religions in the grave with the resurrection belief, but since they cannot EVER prove it really happened the other religions are going to be staying above ground.

 

[PruePhillip]

There have been so many threads being posted about Jesus rising from the dead, so I think it is about time someone asked why it matters so much to people, not only Christians but also atheists.

So what is the significance of Jesus rising from the dead and why is it such a big deal to people?

I have my own ideas but I do not want to give away my position until I have heard from others.

He is called the first born of the resurrection.
If He did not rise, the saying goes, you won't rise either.
So it's a big deal.

 

[Trailblazer]

I didnt know you asked "if Jesus rose physically or spiritually". Your question was "So what is the significance of Jesus rising from the dead and why is it such a big deal to people?".So the answer is Corinthians 15 where the hold of Pauls words "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

Sorry I did not make that clear in my OP. I thought everyone would know I meant rose physically when I said Jesus rising from the dead.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oooooh Oooooooh Oooooooh

because..... not really dying is really impressive.
Kinda hints at you not having to really die -and at least proves the possibility (direct proof for those who had direct proof).

Okay, fair enough, that would explain why it matters so much to people who actually believe it and maybe also why it gives hope to people who don't believe it, but the irony is that the soul is immortal so nobody can ever die. All that happens when we die is that the soul passes to the spiritual world and takes on a new and different form.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194